Posted on 01/16/2008 8:03:18 AM PST by topcat54
PITTSBURGH, PA – “Aunt Myrtle’s bursitis is acting up again.” “Tom lost his job at the mill last week.” “Alvin left Sylvia again on Thursday.” “The Wilsons’ kids got into trouble with the law; they broke into three cars down the road.” “Tammy’s sixteen, pregnant, and has a big GED test tomorrow.” “Franklin really needs the Lord. His whole life is messed up.”
When you read the above list, you may be asking, “What is this?” If you have spent any time in evangelical America, you know that these are typical Sunday School/prayer meeting/cell group prayer requests. Most churches would be willing to pray for all of these. Most, that is, except Three Rivers United Methodist Church.
Rev. Harold Jacobs, senior pastor at Three Rivers, has decided that the church needs to be more biblical in the way it prays. The church body is generally in agreement with him. Because of this desire, they are now restricting their prayer ministry. Specifically, Three Rivers will no longer pray for anyone to be saved.
Pastor Jacobs explains, “I will be the first to admit that our denomination is in the toilet. That’s because we have turned away from the scriptures. Well, like John Wesley before us, we want to live according to God’s word. When we pray, we want to be consistent with the bible. We know that God is not willing that anyone perish (II Peter 3:9), has made atonement for everyone (I John 2:2), and has given man free will to choose him (John 3:16). We don’t want to get in the way of this, so we will no longer pray for anyone to be saved.”
Church council member Edith Miller told TBNN, “I’m just not sure how I feel about this. My neighbor, Suzy Murphy, is not saved and is in desperate need of Jesus. I want to pray for her salvation, but Pastor Jacobs told us that it wouldn’t be fair if we did. He said that God might violate her free will, and we certainly wouldn’t want that to happen.”
The new program, entitled “Praying by the Bible,” is being promoted heavily by the church staff. Assistant Pastor Betty Harris said, “Before this program, our folks weren’t praying for much of anything. Now they are lifting one another up on a daily basis. The only restriction we have given them is that they cannot pray, under any circumstances, for anyone to be saved. We know that God cherishes the free will of man, and is too much of a gentleman to violate this. We wouldn’t want to tempt God to do this by praying for him to do so.”
As TBNN was investigating this story, a church member who wishes to remain anonymous said to us, “Look, I want to obey the church leadership and all. But I just don’t feel right about this. I mean, God answers prayer. So what if it’s not totally fair? I want my lost brother Roy to get saved and I’m praying for it to happen. I hate to be unbiblical, but if that is what it takes for him to come to Christ, well, then I’m going to do it. I hope I don’t face church discipline for this. It’s a risk I’m willing to take for Roy.”
Astonishing ignorance.
Scrappleface?
Whew! Saw it was a parody before I posted something dumb.
She’s going to pray for Christ to come into someone’s life and she is worried about church discipline? Something is very wrong at that congregation.
LOL. I didn’t. I really dislike these theological parodies because real life equals them, even exceeds, so I can no longer tell what is parody and what is not.
Let's see what John Wesley says about prayer:
"God does nothing but in answer to prayer; and even they who have been converted to God without praying for it themselves, (which is exceeding rare,) were not without the prayers of others. Every new victory which a soul gains is the effect of a new prayer.
"On every occasion of uneasiness, we should retire to prayer, that we may give place to the grace and light of God and then form our resolutions, without being in any pain about what success they may have.
Shhhhh!
Ya just HAD to go and ruin it for everyone. ;O)
Ok, you got me.
Astonishing stupidity. Something which will fade away because of its ineffectiveness.
TBNN should leave my sister out of this!
It’s a parody - that’s all Tominthebox does.
Hard to tell nowadays huh??
BTW pragmatism in spiritual things isn't an effective argument-- the most "ineffective" things are still being employed, like feel-good gospel and purpose driven, etc -- and the ones which are really effective for the kingdom of God often don't appear that way on the outside.
However, the article was parody and the whole idea, if it were true, is stupid!
BTW I wonder about him including 'free will' in there because lots of Christians do not believe in free will... and the ones that do are most often the ones employing the 'latest and greatest' fad in an attempt to win people to the church.
No kidding.
Thanks! Guess the astonishing stupidity was on my part for being so gullible.
Alright Mr. Smartypants; how is anyone supposed to know if a story about the United Methodist Church is parody or not?
Nah... I can hardly blame you.
LOL
:-)
well, it’s from TomintheBox but other than that...
“He said that God might violate her free will, and we certainly wouldn’t want that to happen.””
Making fun of free will can not erase it for the pages of Scripture. It just makes Calvinist’s look childish.
Besides, from your Calvinist perspective, if you DON’T pray for someone’s salvation, is that going to effect their eternal destiny one iota???
Where is this "free will" of which you speak in the Bible?
“Where is this “free will” of which you speak in the Bible?”
Let me ask you a question first.
The sins you committed today... did God predestine and plan for you to commit them?
I surmise from your question that you misunderstand the nature of “free will” in regard to our salvation.
The Calvinist asserts that no one is free in regard to their choosing Christ, the reason being that they are dead in their trespasses and sins. Dead men do not choose to be made alive. They must be enabled ... like Lazarus in the tomb.
They are no more able to choose Christ than they are able to jump off a 20 story building unaided by any mechanical device and fly like a bird. It is contrary to their nature, which is one of sin because of the fall of our first parents.
Once you understand that you will understand the impossibility of “free will” choosing of Christ for salvation.
Now you can answer my question. Where does the Bible teach that we have “free will” to choose or reject Christ?
"And he said, "There was a man who had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me...'
... And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
"But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants..."
... And he said to him (the elder brother), 'Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.'"
I think I asked first. I'm waiting.
“I think I asked first. I’m waiting.”
I am about to answer your question - but to do so I need you to answer my question first.
“The sins you committed today... did God predestine and plan for you to commit them?”
(BTW - I have already shown you one example of free will in the Prodigal)
Since truth is not relative, you need nothing from me to answer in order to the question from the Bible.
Ok, I’ll answer for you.
If you said “NO - God did not predestine and plan my sin”, then that is an example of you exercising your free will in a way that is opposed to God’s will. God wants one thing - you want another. Your will may be done - but it leads to death.
The Bible states this clearly:
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.”
Here is an example of free will - temptation. You are never tempted by God to do sin. He tempts no one, He’s not the force behind temptation, He doesn’t predestine us to commit specific sins - yet we are tempted.
Believe it or not, I have had many Calvinists answer the question with “YES - God did predestine and plan my sin”. Clearly this is an unavoidable pitfall of a theology that posits that all events, large or small, are predetermined. It is sharply at odds with the world view of Scripture.
Did you have any comments about the Prodigal?
There’s really no shortage of example of free will in both testaments.
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