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St. Padre Pio's body to be exhumed, displayed for veneration
Catholic News Service ^ | Jan-8-2008 | Catholic News Service

Posted on 01/26/2008 7:47:14 AM PST by Ottofire

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To: Wonder Warthog

**Of course, only God can do that, but that isn’t the point. The point is that the body hasn’t been subject to the natural processes of decay**

The point is..IT HAS DECAYED. It cannot function, there is no life in it ..AT..ALL.

**So all those things you refer to were teaching aids..**

The Holy Ghost does the teaching, not statues, and definitely not dead, corrupted, corpses.

**their shadows**

Shadows of living, breathing, Holy Ghost filled saints of God.

**Actually, the Lord works anywhere and everywhere He wills, light or dark.**

That’s either a dodge, or my comment on light and darkness was misunderstood. Jesus said work while it is day, for the night cometh when no man can work. When the light of life is gone from a man his work is over; so IMO, leave him in the grave.

I close my testimony in this thread saying, IMO, that the defense of displaying dead bodies, after they have been buried for some time, is (as Paul would say) vain babblings.


51 posted on 01/27/2008 10:46:03 AM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Ottofire; Dr. Eckleburg; fortheDeclaration; wmfights; WileyPink; FourtySeven; Alamo-Girl

With such a paucity of idols

I can understand how the RC magicsterical needs to excume more bodies for more idols.

Cute

/s

Veneration—my big toe. a rose is a rose is a rose.

And so is idolatry.


52 posted on 01/27/2008 11:19:02 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Ottofire

‘Oh, must you always talk of corpse digging?’


53 posted on 01/27/2008 11:42:04 AM PST by onedoug
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To: raygunfan
ME: first, if we have only the witness of the holy spirit, then there would be no need for the many signs Christ performed after his ressurection

Jesus Christ was a witness to the Jews...Jesus didn't teach of the Gentile adoption into the church...

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Jesus has the words of eternal life...We Christians don't need signs...

secondly, it would make no sense for satan to be involved in incorruptible christian bodies, as these examples, DRAW PEOPLE CLOSER TO CHRIST...and i know of only one person in the last 2000 plus years that draws people to Him...

Then you are a perfect candidate for deception...Satan doesn't hang around in the bars and opium dens...Satan does his business in the churches...And he can mimic any sign and wonder that Jesus can do...

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And if you are fooling with the untruth of Satan, God will help you right along...God says 'Thy word is truth'...

If you are going against the truth of God, here's how God deals with it:

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

If it was me, I'd be searching for some real stong evidence in the Holy Scriptures to verify and justify digging up dead bodies for use as an aid to worship, or for any reason...

54 posted on 01/27/2008 12:03:39 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Wonder Warthog
There's nothing wrong with using visual aids. The PURPOSE of all those "visual aids" (if you bother to study history) is to EDUCATE the congregation in the faith.

In the faith of what, exactly???

55 posted on 01/27/2008 12:06:13 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool

and again, you miss the point, if satan were manifesting these signs, THEY ARE DRAWING PEOPLE TO CHRIST, DO YOU GET IT???

shouldnt they be drawer folks away from Christ?

but, as you said, you have no proof either way...way not opt for obvious, a sign that is DRAWING FOLKS TO CHRIST, is from Christ....

unless you can prove these incorruptile saints are drawing folks AWAY from Christ, then you are simply wrong...


56 posted on 01/27/2008 1:13:16 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: Zuriel
No, the point is that is has NOT decayed. It is miraculously preserved and waiting for the return of its owner.

"The Holy Ghost does the teaching, not statues, and definitely not dead, corrupted, corpses."

Dead, but not corrupt. And I assume that in your so-called "Sunday school class" the teachers never use pictures?? The Holy Spirit uses anything available to get the point across.

"That’s either a dodge, or my comment on light and darkness was misunderstood. Jesus said work while it is day, for the night cometh when no man can work. When the light of life is gone from a man his work is over; so IMO, leave him in the grave."

Where, precisely did Christ ever say "leave him in the grave"?? Chapter and verse, please.

"I close my testimony in this thread saying, IMO, that the defense of displaying dead bodies, after they have been buried for some time, is (as Paul would say) vain babblings."

Actually, the only "vain babblings" around here, have been yours.

57 posted on 01/27/2008 3:03:50 PM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Iscool
"In the faith of what, exactly???"

Christ, of course. Just like any other picture, videotape, internet posting, or non-Bible book used to teach.

Is this SO difficult to grasp.

58 posted on 01/27/2008 3:06:00 PM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Wonder Warthog; Iscool
Christ, of course. Just like any other picture, videotape, internet posting, or non-Bible book used to teach.

Is this SO difficult to grasp.

Does the Word of Elohim mean anything to you ?

NAsbU Deuteronomy 4:16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a
graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure,
the likeness of male or female,.....

b'SHEM Yah'shua
59 posted on 01/27/2008 3:16:43 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
"Deuteronomy 4:16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,....."

Let's see. Standard disclaimer, Old Testament. Moses, snakebites, bronze serpent. That constitutes a miraculous physical object, eh??

And of course, the real meaning of the phrase you quote is the part you left off, about worshipping the objects themselves. NO Catholic icon is worshipped in and of itself, it is simply a reminder of the specific manifestation of Christ or one of his "agents" (i.e. the Virgin Mary), and ALWAYS leads directly to God.

Indeed, probably some un-educated Catholics, having been badly catechized, fall into superstition--but that is NEVER the teaching of the Church, and never has been.

60 posted on 01/27/2008 3:56:16 PM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Wonder Warthog
XS>"Deuteronomy 4:16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,....."

Let's see. Standard disclaimer, Old Testament. Moses, snakebites, bronze serpent. That constitutes a miraculous physical object, eh??

And of course, the real meaning of the phrase you quote is the part you left off, about worshipping the objects themselves. NO Catholic icon is worshipped in and of itself, it is simply a reminder of the specific manifestation of Christ or one of his "agents" (i.e. the Virgin Mary), and ALWAYS leads directly to God.

Indeed, probably some un-educated Catholics, having been badly catechized, fall into superstition--but that is NEVER the teaching of the Church, and never has been.

60 posted on 01/27/2008 4:56:16 PM MST by Wonder Warthog

YHvH commanded the construction of the bronze serpent on the stake as a
foreshadowing metaphor of Yah'shua dying on a stake for the covering of our sins.

It is blasphemous for man to claim YHvH's right to create a physical image
when it has been specifically prohibited to man in the Word of Elohim.

I do not find any reference to your "real meaning" in Deuteronomy 4.

You are commanded not act corruptly and make a graven image in any form.

It is repeated again for clarification in verse 23.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua
61 posted on 01/27/2008 4:44:11 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: raygunfan
and again, you miss the point, if satan were manifesting these signs, THEY ARE DRAWING PEOPLE TO CHRIST, DO YOU GET IT???

shouldnt they be drawer folks away from Christ?

Well I'm sorry but YOU miss the point...

Jesus says there are many Christs out there...And they appear as angels of light and they minister to people

Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Jesus had no interest in dead people...He says let the unsaved people mess with the dead bodies...

You have to be sure that the 'Christ' who leads you to dig up the dead is 'Jesus' Christ...And any Christ can call himself Jesus...

62 posted on 01/27/2008 5:23:20 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool

No, i didnt miss your point, which, as in most of your posts, involve cherry picking scripture to buttress your non biblical, ‘scripture alone’ concept of Christ, Me and my Bible.

How in the world can you continue to say that something as verifiable as incorruptile saints, WHO ARE SAINTS DUE TO THEIR HEROIC CHRISTIAN VIRTUE, are not of Christ?

These saints who turn the eyes of ordinary people to the truth of Christ, NOT ANYONE WHO CALLS THEMSELVES CHRIST, not any imitators, not any fakes, but toward Christ Jesus, is somehow of satan?

Where is your proof that anyone, anywhere at anytime, has viewed the incorrupted bodies of Christs heroes, who are alive in him now. have turned AWAY FROM CHRIST????


63 posted on 01/27/2008 6:13:09 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: XeniaSt
I do not find any reference to your "real meaning" in Deuteronomy 4.You are commanded not act corruptly and make a graven image in any form. It is repeated again for clarification in verse 23.

Deuteronomy is obviously referring the the Ten Commandments, and the prohibition about WORSHIP of images. It is the WORSHIP aspect that is "acting corruptly", not the making of an image, per se.

64 posted on 01/28/2008 7:14:06 AM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: XeniaSt
If he is not alive then he is dead !

According to "Elohim's word," his son has abolished death. (2 Timothy 1:10) What part of "abolished" isn't clear?

65 posted on 01/28/2008 8:24:10 AM PST by Campion
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To: Zuriel
The Holy Ghost does the teaching, not statues, and definitely not dead, corrupted, corpses.

2 Kings 13:21.

66 posted on 01/28/2008 8:27:25 AM PST by Campion
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To: raygunfan
No, i didnt miss your point, which, as in most of your posts, involve cherry picking scripture to buttress your non biblical, ‘scripture alone’ concept of Christ, Me and my Bible.

Oh c'mon now...That's the feeble line you guys always use when someone straightens you out with the word of God...

Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Jesus says get your eyes off the dead people and get your eyes of the Kingdom of God...You can't deal with it, that's your problem, not mine...

If you can find another application for that verse, let's hear it...

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The flesh is sinful...No way is God going to preserve someone's sinful flesh to use for a 'sign' to a bunch of Gentiles...And if you don't know that, it's because the word of God is meaningless to you...

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

How in the world can you continue to say that something as verifiable as incorruptile saints, WHO ARE SAINTS DUE TO THEIR HEROIC CHRISTIAN VIRTUE, are not of Christ?

Heroic Christian Virtue will not get anyone to heaven...

These saints who turn the eyes of ordinary people to the truth of Christ, NOT ANYONE WHO CALLS THEMSELVES CHRIST, not any imitators, not any fakes, but toward Christ Jesus, is somehow of satan?

And how do you know??? The bible says many Christs shall arise, and no doubt they will all call themselves Jesus...How do you know you or anyone else has the 'right' Jesus???

Where is your proof that anyone, anywhere at anytime, has viewed the incorrupted bodies of Christs heroes, who are alive in him now. have turned AWAY FROM CHRIST????

Never said anyone would quit following Christ...And Satan doesn't want you to quit following Christ...Quite the contrary...He wants you to follow Jesus Christ...He wants you to follow the wrong Jesus Christ...

67 posted on 01/28/2008 8:30:19 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool

YOU:

Oh c’mon now...That’s the feeble line you guys always use when someone straightens you out with the word of God...

ME: no it isnt, because, as you well know, Satan himself knows the scriptures, and perhaps he is using you when you cherry pick verses????

YOU:

Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

ME: none of those refer to my posting of the incorruptibles, those refer plainly to Christ gathering those to him to follow him and the gospel, he says nothing at all about His ability to perform miracles of leaving a body intact, free of decay.

It is your bias against that, that causes you to choose this verse.

YOU:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The flesh is sinful...No way is God going to preserve someone’s sinful flesh to use for a ‘sign’ to a bunch of Gentiles...And if you don’t know that, it’s because the word of God is meaningless to you...

ME: Christ is not saying the flesh is sinful, that is heresy, similar to Valentinian Gnosticism, which believed that flesh, being matter was sinful and Christ couldnt have been part of sinful flesh...etc.

Being weak through the flesh doesnt make the flesh, mere matter, sinful.

YOU: Heroic Christian Virtue will not get anyone to heaven...

ME: Really? that is What christ calls us to in the gospel.

YOU

(ME)These saints who turn the eyes of ordinary people to the truth of Christ, NOT ANYONE WHO CALLS THEMSELVES CHRIST, not any imitators, not any fakes, but toward Christ Jesus, is somehow of satan?

YOU:
And how do you know??? The bible says many Christs shall arise, and no doubt they will all call themselves Jesus...How do you know you or anyone else has the ‘right’ Jesus???

ME: because we are not talking about any incorruptible saints suddenly rising from the dead and calling themselves The Christ. We are talking about Christ preserving, miraculously, the bodies of his beloved saints.

And that causes many people to follow the one Christ Jesus, the same Christ who was crucified, Died, and rose three days later.

Im not sure which Christ you seem to think Satan would have me follow, and how these incorrupted saints cause anything like that.


68 posted on 01/28/2008 8:53:07 AM PST by raygunfan
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To: Wonder Warthog
XS>"Deuteronomy 4:16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,....."

Deuteronomy is obviously referring the the Ten Commandments, and the prohibition about WORSHIP of images. It is the WORSHIP aspect that is "acting corruptly", not the making of an image, per se.

64 posted on 01/28/2008 8:14:06 AM MST by Wonder Warthog

Why do you derogate the plain text of the Word of Elohim
in order to create pagan graven images ?

YHvH wrote Deuteronomy 4:16 and 4:23 for your understanding.

Why do you reject the plain Word of Elohim ?

NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua
69 posted on 01/28/2008 9:29:38 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Campion
XS> if he is not alive then he is dead !

According to "Elohim's word," his son has abolished death. (2 Timothy 1:10) What part of "abolished" isn't clear?

You seem to come from the Bill Clinton school of theology.

70 posted on 01/28/2008 9:32:21 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
"YHvH wrote Deuteronomy 4:16 and 4:23 for your understanding."

Unquestionably.

"Why do you reject the plain Word of Elohim ?"

I don't.

"NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

And this statement is why. Last I heard, there were no COMMANDMENTS in Deuteronomy. The COMMANDMENT involved is about WORSHIPPING images, not painting pictures.

71 posted on 01/28/2008 9:37:55 AM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Wonder Warthog; Invincibly Ignorant

XS>NAsbU Deuteronomy 4:16 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,.....

XS>"NAsbU John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

And this statement is why. Last I heard, there were no COMMANDMENTS in Deuteronomy. The COMMANDMENT involved is about WORSHIPPING images, not painting pictures.

71 posted on 01/28/2008 10:37:55 AM MST by Wonder Warthog

How incredibly ignorant !

Or is it invincibly ignorant ?

A simple google of Deuteronomy would tell you otherwise.

It is patently clear you are ignorant of the Holy Word of Elohim.

YHvH will hold you accountable for knowing His Word,
if you claim to be a follower of the Christ.

b'SHEM Yah'shua
72 posted on 01/28/2008 10:28:09 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Campion; Wonder Warthog

2 Kings 13:21.

see #38.

You will notice that they didn’t bring Elisha’s remains out of the grave. Handling the dead was commanded as unclean by the Law, so they buried the dead, and...left...them...there. The only REBURIAL I can recall is the relocating of Joseph’s bones from Egypt to Canaan.

These well preserved corpses seem to require ideal conditions (although some methods vary). Were these long dead bodies, that the RC/EO have chosen to bring out of the grave, buried in pine boxes in warm, moist, earthworm inhabited soil? Here, in western IL, the old cemetaries that don’t have vaults are a pain to mow; very uneven, bounce around (a friend used to maintain one).

How about a well preserved 2,000 yr old Chinese woman:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200207/24/eng20020724_100273.shtml
Go dig up more corpses on google, it’s much easier, and cleaner too.

You people want to have things to point to Jesus Christ, try this: Be born again, then be walking epistles, read of men. It’s the changed life. The separation from worldliness. It’s the walking, talking, blameless saint of God that is a living testamony of Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost leads and guides into all truth, convicts of sinful behavior.

In my case, friends saw that I left behind the night clubs, the cursing, the nearly naked public beaches, etc., because the Holy Ghost leads one away from worldliness. Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. It’s still that way (regardless what greedy ‘megachurch’ ministers preach).

I realize that conceding any church tradition or practice as wrong/ungodly is opening the door to the possiblity of other ungodly/disobedient practices, so I don’t expect any admissions of foolish traditions from your church.

I broke my silence and came back to this vain babbling thread, and still pronouce your church’s practice as morbid (now I feel I must ask God to forgive me for spending time on this foolish subject).


73 posted on 01/28/2008 10:40:30 AM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel

It is very good that you left the night clubs and the cursing; the next step in your growth should be not mocking what you don’t understand. If you personally don’t feel like venerating a relic, don’t venerate it.


74 posted on 01/28/2008 11:27:24 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Zuriel
"These well preserved corpses seem to require ideal conditions (although some methods vary). Were these long dead bodies, that the RC/EO have chosen to bring out of the grave, buried in pine boxes in warm, moist, earthworm inhabited soil?"

Not at all. They are typically placed in pine boxes in crypts. If they're going to decay, then they will. the only "ideal conditions" come from God.

Read up a bit and relieve your ignorance.

75 posted on 01/28/2008 12:44:32 PM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: XeniaSt
"How incredibly ignorant !"

Not really. Just away from my references. But guess what, I checked in Deuteronomy, found the COMMANDMENT, and it says EXACTLY what I said it does about not WORSHIPPING images

So, what's better, to have been somewhat ignorant, or to have been a liar.

76 posted on 01/28/2008 12:45:09 PM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Mazol Tov !
Keep spitting in the face of YHvH with your
Jesuitical parsing of venerate/worship.

Keep building your pagan graven images.

One day you will have to convince YHvH
that he is wrong and you are right.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua

77 posted on 01/28/2008 2:14:32 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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