Posted on 02/08/2008 9:42:21 AM PST by jdm
Mitt Romney suspended his presidential campaign yesterday, after his poor showing on Super Tuesday made a victory over John McCain all but mathematically impossible. As much as McCain and Mike Huckabee loathe Mitt, it's been easy to imagine them conspiring to deliver the killing stroke. Conventional wisdom says Huckabee won five southern states outright and helped turn others, such as Missouri, to McCain by taking conservative votes away from Romney.
But Romney probably wasn't going to earn those ballots anyway. Southern states have GOP primary electorates dominated by evangelical Christians, specifically by Southern Baptists. And many of those Southern Baptists are committed to blocking the ascension of a Mormon to the presidency.
For the conservative pundits backing Romney who missed this story, ideology trumps theology. But for many evangelicals, it's the other way around. Southern Baptists and Mormons are not only two of the four largest religious denominations in the country, they are the most aggressive of American missionary faiths, and have been on a collision course for generations.
Protestant leaders have been objecting to various tenets of Mormonism for 175 years, but Southern Baptists grew especially alarmed when Mormon churches moved into Georgia and Texas in the 1980s. Since then, the Southern Baptist Convention has moved aggressively to warn its members about the "dangers" of the Mormon faith, characterizing Mormonism as a cult in books and teaching kits it has offered to its members. As Columbia doctoral student Neil J. Young put it, "Probably no other organization in the nation has played a bigger role in perpetuating the idea that Mormonism is a cult than the Southern Baptist Convention."
In 1998, the Southen Baptists held their annual convention in Salt Lake City, opposing the "cult" head-on. As one minister called Mormonism "counterfeit Christianity" and the convention passed a resolution stipulating "biblical revelation [as opposed to, say, the Book of Mormon] as the sole source of saving truth," 3,000 Baptist volunteers went knocking on doors in the heart of the world capital of Mormonism, attempting to evangelize local residents.
Something else happened at that 1998 confab: The governor of Arkansas and former president of the Arkansas Baptist Convention, a fellow named Mike Huckabee, addressed the Pastors' Conference, a two-day meeting preceding the actual convention. "I got into politics," Huckabee told his fellow Baptist ministers, "because I knew government didn't have the real answers, that the real answers lie in accepting Jesus Christ into our lives." Reporters attending the Pastors' Conference found copies of Huckabee's most recent book, Kids Who Kill: Confronting our Culture of Violence, in the press room. They also got a book called Mormonism Unmasked.
The Baptists' propaganda efforts have been successful. In November 2006, 53 percent of evangelical Christians (compared with 43 percent of all Americans) told a Rasmussen survey they would never even consider voting for a Mormon presidential candidate. Last December, the Pew Research Center found that of white evangelicals who attend church regularly, 52 percent believe Mormonism is not Christian.
Maybe because the kind of Republicans Romney hung out with at Bain Capital and the Olympics don't share this outlook (62 percent of white mainline Protestants told Pew they think Mormonism is Christian), he rather blithely dismissed the views underlying these numbers. But they cropped up almost from the beginning of the presidential campaign. Last August, for example, in advance of the Iowa straw poll, a group called U.S. Christians for Truth circulated a flyer that stated: "We strongly believe that Jesus Christ, if he were alive in the flesh in this time and voted, would NEVER vote for Mitt Romney under any circumstances. ... Mitt Romney represents Mormonism which is counterfeit Christianity, a cult."
On December 5, the Southern Baptist Convention's North American Mission Board launched a three-part website series called "Is Mormonism Christian?" Among the highlights of the second installment: "Deceived or deceiver? Either way, it seems pretty clear that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God. Accordingly, despite the fact that the Mormon church embraces a few beliefs in line with biblical Christianity it is demonstrably a false religion." The following day, the series declared, "Mormonism is a theological cult." And in addressing the question of Romney's candidacy, it stated that while his issue positions could be what matter most, "others may argue, a Mormon president would provide Mormonism with visibility beyond anything it has had up to now and consequently give a boost to Mormon missionary efforts."
Less than a week later, The New York Times Magazine quoted Huckabee as saying he didn't know much about Mormonism and asking, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?" Huckabee later said he was speaking out of unfamiliarity, with no harm intended. Sure he was. Just like the commenters on Huckabee's website who slammed Mormonism for weeks afterward were, too.
By the end of 2007, some Mormons were wondering if the cross that famously appeared in the window of Huckabee's Christmas ad was directed specifically against their faith, which focuses more on Jesus' rising than his death. Various churches in South Carolina devoted Christmas-season sermons to anti-Mormon lectures. Evangelicals helped get out the vote for Huckabee in Michigan. "If we turned out every evangelical Christian on election day, Gov. Huckabee would get six times as many votes as Romney!" Huckabee supporter Gary Glenn wrote in an e-mail on January 6. Glenn listed the churches the campaign needed to mobilize: "Assembly of God, Baptist, Church of God, Nazarenes, Lutheran, non-denominational, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Reformed, Word of Faith." And which to avoid: Catholics and Mormons, who were lumped together with "any church you know to be liberal on issues such as abortion and protecting traditional marriage."
Obviously, there are reasons beyond faith for the failure of Romney's campaign. The guy's a puling phony, and McCain and Huckabee are both funnier and better under pressure. But maybe Romney's campaign was doomed for the simple reason that as he exposed his Mormonism to a greater number of right-wing Christians, he branded himself as unacceptably impure, a priori, to a critically large subset of them. And maybe the reason Romney got so little bang for his advertising buck is because the cost of luring evangelicals to support a Mormon--of conversion, if you will--is essentially infinite.
Going back at least to the Clinton years, politics in America has been realigning across rather than along denominational lines. We are increasingly divided as seculars vs. traditionalists, and these days, conservative Catholics often believe they have more in common with conservative Protestants than with casual Catholics. Keeping these religion-first voters in lockstep at the polls has been an important part of Republican strategy. And few groups have proven as reliably willing to vote for ideological allies outside of their faith as Mormons, who have been fanatically Republican for decades.
But sometimes denomination still matters. Southern Baptists were always ready to draw the line at supporting a Mormon candidate for President. Their traditions say Mormons are false Christians. The Internet gives them a way to spread their teachings and attacks. And the Huckabee campaign provided evangelicals who wanted to stop Mitt Romney a way to cast their vote for a Southern Baptist.
Romney probably should have cast himself as the take-charge northern governor he is, as many commentators have suggested. Among Southern Baptists who see him as antichristian, Romney's effort to become the candidate of the religious right never had a chance.
The author is writing about things he knows nothing about.
I am a Baptist Conservative. Mormonism falls into my definition of a cult. That said, between McCain the “Baptist and Huckabee the Baptist, Mitt would have had my vote. The religious angle is being overemphasized. I really don’t think it is a huge issue. Mitt (as are most Mormons) is a good clean decent classy guy. Of our choices towards the end, he was my pick.
I suppose the term MORMON evokes feelings, like telemarketing people who call at suppertime. Generall two kids, who call themselves ELDERS, (elder used to be someone older) and come around with the concept that everything we’ve ever been told is incorrect, and that the TRUTH, and ONLY Truth was revealed to one man Joseph Smith. That is difficult to think that everyone before Smith was wayward, rebellious, hopeless and without any truth.
Mitt was NEVER my first choice as he had never had the true conservative principles that I hold dearly.
My first choice was Duncan Hunter, then transferred to Thompson, reluctantly and lastly to Mitt, who was the most conservatvie of the three.
I'd never consider Huckabee in my top 5 list, regardless of his faith.
Mitt was NEVER my first choice as he had never had the true conservative principles that I hold dearly.
My first choice was Duncan Hunter, then transferred to Thompson, reluctantly and lastly to Mitt, who was the most conservatvie of the three.
I'd never consider Huckabee in my top 5 list, regardless of his faith.
Whew! Good thing McCain is a staunch Baptist. </s
It is a sham religion. A home grown cult no different than Scientology. I won’t mince words on it. The only good thing about it is that it includes the bible. The offense is that it also includes the clearly semi plagiarized ramblings of a conman.
That said Romney’s problem was not his religion as much as his substance. His history was out there and he did not do a good enough job of convincing people he was the real deal for a man who ran away from Reagan. He would’ve did a much better job if he had ran against John Kerry or Ted Kennedy again. I think he could’ve won against Kerry. Now I don’t know.
Back before the SC primary, I was sending out emails to Southern Baptist pastors for Fred. I had one lawyer, apparently based here in NC (apparently he received my original message as a forward), who mentioned that he was “troubled” by Mitt’s Mormonism. Yet, when I had gone over in rigourous detail several of the documented ways which Mike Huckabee has shown himself to be a bald-faced liar, his response was along the line of “Oh well, that’s politics, you expect people to lie to you”.
I’m growing more convinced that the larger part of the Southern Baptist convention is filled with hypocrites.
I've generally found that for every one who foams at the mouth and hates Mormons, there is another who foams and hates Catholics, another who foams at the mouth and hates Republicans and about seven who don't foam at the mouth at all and are willing to work with anyone who shares 80% of their values.
It is just that the foaming at the mouth types are so vocal and visible, they'd like you to think they represent the mainstream. Just like Fred Phelps would like you to think his church represents Baptists.
I was a Mormon for three years, back in my university days. I am now a Catholic. I would not vote for a Mormon for public office.
From what I saw in the three years when I belonged to the Mormon church, it qualified as a cult. People have the right to belong to a cult, if that’s what they freely choose to do. But they also have the right to get out of that cult, and getting out of that one was tough. I just don’t want to give anybody that kind of control over me ever again.
“Among Southern Baptists who see him as antichristian, Romney’s effort to become the candidate of the religious right never had a chance.”
I voted for him, and I am a Southern Baptist. I don’t think that it’s impossible for Southern Baptists to accept a Mormon as President. I do think that when you have a preacher like Huckabee running, who is intent upon using his podium as a pulpit, it’s inevitable that the lowest form of persuasion will be used. Huckabee might be increasing his own constituency in the South, but he’s not helping the cause of Christ by painting us all as bigots.
Ping
Ok, here’s my deal.
I was against Mitt for his liberalism and his lying. If he hadn’t had those attributes, I would have had to confront the fact that Mitt believes that my Best Friend, Jesus, is not only not God, but that His brother is Satan.
That bothers me. A lot.
Even so, if someone held a gun to my head, I would have voted Mitt over the Huckster, any day of the week.
Thanks, but too late. In the beginning, the word was THINK!
The hand-wringers are trying to recast this as anti-Mormonism.
Had Mitt been a staunch conservative all along he would have pounded McShamnesty into the dust.
Wow. Good testimony.
The Mormons really don’t win any points by saying “but, but, but we’re Christians, too, JUST like you”.
To me, that is the final icing on the cake of dishonesty that the LDS church serves up.
Counterfeit scriptures, counterfeit Jesus, etc etc.
BTW, as an evangelical who grew up Roman Catholic, I have NO problem going into a Catholic church (unless it’s run by a whack job liberal priest).
Since you are apparently religious, then is not God the Father. His reign is the Father of all mankind.
Eh, there’s an old joke the nuns would tell us.
non-churchgoer: I don’t want to go to church with all those hypocrites.
Catholic: Why not, one more won’t make a difference.
I suppose I would be classified as Southern, evangelical Christian and would support Romney wholeheartedly - and don’t believe I need to pray for forgiveness because of it!!!
Don’t think Phelps represents anyone but the Phelps family. Awaiting judgment day when he gets Baptist stripped from any association with himself.
It certainly mattered in Utah: CNN says 94% of the non-Catholic weekly church attender vote was for Romney. Deseret News says 79% of the $ coming out of Utah for POTUS candidates was for Romney...and after looking at the numbers further, I would say that it was 91% of the GOP candidate $ was for Romney.
Colorcountry and others have said that 95% of the LDS vote in Nevada was for Romney; along with 94% of the LDS vote in Arizona.
Anybody posting claims of "bigotry" and "bias" against Christian voters need to be consistent, then, and extend their claims to LDS voters.
the joke I’ve heard over the years was more non-denominational but was followed by words which in essence say, “all persons are hypocrites, only those who sit in the church pews are hypocrites closer to God.”
I’m interested in hearing why and how the Mormon church was difficult to leave. I’ve read on websites about various problems but haven’t heard it directly in a “conversation.”
My objections to Romney were because of his record. Nevertheless, after everyone else of worth dropped out, I was going to vote for Romney. Now he's gone too.
Oh, well, better luck in 2012.
I understand that, but to me, his theology is irrelevant. I mean, I'm an Independent Baptist, so he'd be saying that about MY Jesus, too.
But if Mitt were Catholic, he'd be saying that my Jesus isn't a good enough way to get to heaven, and that Mary is better. He'd be saying that my Jesus is angry and implacable, but Mary is looking out for us (and before some angry Catholic attempts to screech me into complaince, I know these things I say are true because I am familiar with a breadth of Catholic literature, probably more familiar than your average American Catholic is).
If Mitt were a Calvinist, he'd be saying that MY Jesus didn't shed His blood for the whole world, but only for the "elect", and that everybody else can just go to hell with no hope of redemption whatsoever. And he'd have a self-serving definition of "world" to try to get around the obvious biblical difficulties with limited atonement.
If Mitt were a Russellite, he'd be saying that MY Jesus was a subordinate angel-like being who is not Jehovah, but is some created being, more or less like you and I.
If Mitt were a Jew, he'd be saying that MY Jesus was the bastard son of Mary and a Roman soldier named Panthera (it's in the Talmud, look it up).
If Mitt were a mainline Protestant, he'd (most likely) be saying that MY Jesus is a wishy-washy sissy who would never take a stand on anything and hurt anybody's precious little feelings.
Shoot, I supported (and still support) Fred Thompson, who thinks that MY Jesus isn't good enough by Himself, and needs people to be baptised to complete the soteriological transaction.
See my point? If I didn't vote for anybody whose theology I disagreed with, I might as well just de-register.
If Romney ever expects to be elected POTUS he needs to do two or three things. (he never will)
1. Resign Mormonism and shed that label.
2. Admit, because he was born into the faith he didn't believe all the negatives he had heard about it.
3. Join no religion. State he is a Deist.
This will remove all the issues so that he can begin to use his leadership qualities without the burden of any religion. So the Mormons abandon Mitt. That would be the best thing that could ever happen to him.
It’s a moot point, anyway. *Sigh*
Nor could they warm to a Catholic or a Jew or a ... (fill in the blank.) Evangelical “Christians” are the American equivalent of the Taliban.
” “Probably no other organization in the nation has played a bigger role in perpetuating the idea that Mormonism is a cult than the Southern Baptist Convention.”(62 percent of white mainline Protestants told Pew they think Mormonism is Christian)”
This theme has been played all during the primary.
All of the Christian churches see Mormonism as a cult, Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Protestant. The trick of the media is to pretend that it is only an unusual view of Southern Baptists or “evangelicals” therefore another reason to marginalize the conservative base .
When you decided to leave the Mormon Church did you try writing a letter to your Bishop stating that? If he is a good Bishop he will try to change your mind but he will honor your wishes and remove your name from the records if that is what you want.
Sounds pretty difficult to me.
I don’t through the term around lightly, and I doubt your Southern Baptist mother knew much about it. I was Southern Baptist for 15 years or so and it wasn’t taught or emphasized.
As to the label, There is some set criteria I use when dealing with the term. I think Mormons are some of the genuinely nicest and good people I have ever been associated with. However,concerning the religion itself, there are specific criteria I use that would get them that label.
1) The religion is based upon some extra-biblical revelation of a charismatic leader or group of leaders. Joseph Smith and the Mormon Prophets and Apostles fit this bill.
2) This extra-biblical revelation contradicts biblical essentials. Mormonism differs from biblical Christianity in many different ways. It is polytheistic, not trinitarian. It believes God was once a man who became God and fathered children through sex with his wives in the spirit world. (Scripture nowhere teaches anything like this). It teaches salvation by faith plus works (Scripture contradicts this). There are many other contradictions.
3)Uses social-psychogical methods in order to attract members (I doubt very seriously if a potential convert would be told right off the bat about baptism for the dead, potential godhood in the future, and other doctrines peculiar to Mormonism.
4)Uses social-psychological methods to keep members (excommunication with loss of heaven - be it cellestial terrestrial or telestial, could be considered to be a part of this)
5)Considers the Bible to have been corrupted at some point (since your church teaches the KJV is authoritative in so far as it is properly translated/interpreted by J. Smith etc., this is an issue).
I have done a lot of research here, and most of the things I point to are from primary sources including the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and different quotes from your founders. A lot of the things (such as polygamy/polyandry and black skin= bad) to the church’s credit, it no longer emphasizes or perhaps even teaches. But there is enough for a biblical Christian to stand against in the religion while still loving the people who are a part of it.
so
Do Mormon (preachers?) bash Baptists from thier pulpit? Anyone catch that kind of sermon while in a lds service?
Anyway, I am glad to be an American - a Nation where we all support religious tolerance.....sort of.
I won't try to screech you into compliance but I will say you're full of crap.
Sure wish there were more like you. My feelings also. When ones religion is the prime factor in who one might vote for portends a rather sad commentary on our current culture.
The how the Mormon Church makes it difficult to leave part of your question is answered HERE.
The why question is more complicated. As explained HERE, there is some evidence the Mormon Church has more ex-Mormons than current members. One theory holds the LDS church impedes resignations in order to maintain inflated rolls and minimize dissonance among its membership. I personally find that argument non-persuasive in light of the church's extreme secrecy and propensity to disseminate misinformation.
Personally, I believe the Mormon Church's reasons are simplier: they have always made it difficult (no reason to change), and they can always hold out hope an individual will return to their fold somehow someday.
Incidentally, FWIW, the mechanism for leaving the LDS fold is much less onerous today than it was in the past. During their first two decades in Utah, the Mormons were in "splendid isolation" and anyone trying to escape their clutches faced being "used up" (i.e. killed) through the practice of "blood atonement."
Me too, but I would have voted democrat against Romney. Because electing a Mormon to the highest office in the land would have legitimized Mormonism. The President is a role model.
Of course, I also think he was a flipflopping liberal who would say anything to get into office, and the most liberal candidate out there, even beyond Rudy. But I would have voted against him even if I had agreed with you about him being decent.
Me too, but I would have voted democrat against Romney. Because electing a Mormon to the highest office in the land would have legitimized Mormonism. The President is a role model.
Of course, I also think he was a flipflopping liberal who would say anything to get into office, and the most liberal candidate out there, even beyond Rudy. But I would have voted against him even if I had agreed with you about him being decent.
I had considered that. However, I don’t think our vote would have been looked on as legitimizing Mormonism. I would have voted for him because he was the most conservative of the 3 left. He wasn’t my first pick, but I think he a decent guy.
The best explanation I have found to date is as follows:
DEFINITIONS OF A CULT
The two most obvious example of cults are the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons believe many things that are in agreement with and/or similar to what the Bible teaches. However, they also believe numerous doctrines that are in clear contradiction to the Bible and the Biblical Gospel of salvation.
From a purely Biblical perspective, 2 Corinthians 11:4 gives us the clearest and most concise description of how cults may be discerned. False teachings, the apostle Paul warned here, will introduce three major errors to the unsuspecting in the name of Christianity:
- First they will preach their own determination of who Jesus Christ is, denying his Biblically revealed identity as God the Son and exchanging it with another. They'll point to "another Jesus."
- Second, cult teachers will proclaim a "gospel message" that is ultimately is a message of works-centered salvation, in sharpest contrast to the Good News of saving grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). They'll preach "another gospel."
- Third, the revealed spiritual nature of the work of the cult claims to be, but actually is not, inspired by God the Spirit. Instead, a chilling reference is made to spiritual entities who lend tremendous spiritual power to their natural human puppets to preach deceptive gospels. They'll be empowered by "another spirit." This is the work of demonic agents in allegiance with Satan, the opposer of God throughout history.
In short, a cult will energetically claim to follow the Bible and be the only group to be found anywhere who really are interpreting it correctly (hence the rationale for some countercult workers calling some groups "Bible based"). Ultimately, once examined, a questionable group's doctrines will always deny orthodox Biblical truth in some manner.
CATEGORIES OF CULTS
TEN COMMON CHARACTERISTICS OF ABERRANT CHRISTIAN CULTS
Note: Any of the below is indicative of cults. The more attributes that apply, the more serious the problem.
OTHER SATANIC PRACTICES
Note: Sometimes, it helps to offer a contrast. As noted above, cults are organized "groups" of persons. The below are not formally structured, therefore are cannot be classified as a true cult – but are similar in that they are evil, anti-Christian and have fanatic adherents.
That's the problem with this whole stupid primary system - we are 'towards the end' when hardly anyone has had a chance to vote.
Carolyn
Oh; I don't either.
Just don't be so Biblical illiterate that you fall for Mormonism's claim that they are 'Christian' too!
I opposed Mitt because he was from Massachusetts. I didn’t want us to run a candidate that would get ‘GORED’ in his home state.
CC can give you a first hand account.
Perhaps Utah Binger as well.
I was raised Mormon, though I am not Mormon any longer. But in all the years I went to services, I do not recall ever hearing anyone preach against any religion, including Baptists.
I am amazed at the level on intolerance and ignorance here on FR toward the Mormon religion. I find Mormons to be, as a group, the most honest, hard working, family oriented, and decent people I know. They also are highly patriotic and generally conservative. The country will be much worse off with McPain, Shillary, or Ossamabama in as president!!
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
Well I hope the intolerant here are happy with their Baptist. “m another cultist I’m Roman Catholic.
I know what you mean!
That's why I try to mainly post just stuff that your Organization® has published over the years.
(Oh... and Bible stuff, too.)
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