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A Dispensationalist Agrees with Me!
American Vision ^ | 02/12/08 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 02/13/2008 9:31:41 AM PST by topcat54

For some time now I have been challenging dispensationalists to be consistent with their claim that they interpret the Bible literally. They don’t take time words like “near” and “shortly” literally. “This generation will not pass away,” Tim LaHaye and others argue, becomes “the generation that sees these signs will not pass away.” Donald E. Green agrees with Neil Nelson that “‘generation’ refers to an evil kind of people in Matthew’s gospel.”1 Richard L. Mayhue, Professor of Theology and Pastoral Ministries at the Master’s Seminary, argues that the Greek word genea (“generation”) “refers to ‘the category of rebellious people who have rejected God’s truth and righteousness through the ages.”2 In each of these cases, words have to be added to Matthew 24:34 in order to get genea to mean these things. “This generation,” to follow the “plain sense” interpretive methodology employed by dispensationalists, means nothing more than the generation to whom Jesus was speaking if you stick to the text and compare how “this generation” is used elsewhere in the gospels.

Even when Jesus uses the phrase “evil and adulterous generation,” He is referring to that first-century generation, not some undesignated future generation (Matt. 12:38–45). The Pharisees say to Jesus, “We want to see a sign” (v. 38). Jesus answers, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign” (v. 39). That makes their generation an evil and adulterous generation since they are the ones asking for a sign. Even so, Jesus gives them a sign, “the sign of Jonah the prophet” (v. 39). And when was the sign of Jonah the prophet fulfilled? In their day (v. 40). The use of “this generation” throughout this passage (vv. 41–42) is used by Jesus to point out how their generation will be judged by the people of Nineveh and the Queen of the South because someone greater than Jonah and Solomon “is here.” The “here” is there! LaHaye, Green, Nelson, and Mayhue are wrong in their attempts to make “this generation” mean something other than the obvious.

My persistence in pushing for a more consistent hermeneutic is beginning to pay off in other areas. Since writing The Truth Behind Left Behind with Mark Hitchcock, Thomas Ice has “come to disagree” with the following statement that he and Hitchcock made about the weapons described in Ezekiel 38 and 39: “Ezekiel spoke in language that the people of his day could understand. If he had spoken of MIG-29s, laser-fired missiles, tanks, and assault rifles, this text would have been nonsensical to everyone until the twentieth century.’”3 Ice admits that he no longer holds this view:

Gary DeMar criticizes such an approach when he says, “If someone like Tim LaHaye is true to his claim of literalism, then the Russian attack he and Jerry Jenkins describe in Left Behind should be a literal representation of the actual battle events as they are depicted in Ezekiel 38 and 39.”4 DeMar continues, “How do Hitchcock, Ice, and LaHaye know that this is what the Holy Spirit really means when the text is clear enough without any modern-day embellishment?”5 This may surprise some, but I think DeMar is basically right in his criticism of us on this point, even though he is demonstrably wrong about so many other items he addresses in the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39.”6

He goes on to write, “Instead, I have come to agree with DeMar who says: ‘A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit modern-day military realities that include jet planes, ‘missiles,’ and ‘atomic and explosive’ weaponry.’”7

This is a wonderful development. Tommy should be commended for his honesty. It’s difficult to break from a long-held theological position. Hopefully he will get others to follow his lead. While he is becoming more consistent with his claim to interpret the Bible literally, he still believes that Ezekiel is describing a future battle that will be fought with ancient weapons. How he is going to reconcile his new view with those who claim that the antichrist will use modern technology to rule the world is still a question that needs to be answered convincingly.


1. Neil D. Nelson, “‘This Generation’ in Matt 24:34: A Literary Critical Perspective,” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 38 (September 1996), 381, n. 37. Quoted in Donald E. Green, “A Critique of Preterism” (2001), 28.

2. Richard Mayhue, “Jesus: A Preterist or Futurist?” Paper presented to the Evangelical Theological Society (November 1999), 19. Quoted in Green, “A Critique of Preterism,” 28.

3. Mark Hitchcock and Thomas Ice, The Truth Behind Left Behind: A Biblical View of the End Times (Sisters, OR: Multnomah Press, 2004), 47.

4. Gary DeMar, “Ezekiel’s Magog Invasion: Future or Fulfilled?” Biblical Worldview Magazine, 22:12 (December 2006), 4.

5. DeMar, “Ezekiel’s Magog Invasion,” 6. (italics original)

6. Thomas Ice, “Ezekiel 38 and 39: Part VIII.”

7. Ice, “Ezekiel 38 and 39: Part VIII.” Ice quotes me in “Ezekiel’s Magog Invasion: Future or Fulfilled?,” 4.


Gary DeMar is the President for American Vision.
Permission to reprint granted by American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism; eschatology; generation

1 posted on 02/13/2008 9:31:43 AM PST by topcat54
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To: ItsOurTimeNow; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool; jkl1122; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Reformed Eschatology Ping List (REPL)

"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)

2 posted on 02/13/2008 9:33:39 AM PST by topcat54 ("Light beer is the devilís beverage.")
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To: topcat54

I’ve always debated with my peers about the ‘this generation shall not pass away’ part of scripture. Jesus uses this word several times in the gospels and never does it appear to mean a literal generation, but more generally refers to a group of people, or a certain kind of people.


3 posted on 02/13/2008 9:40:59 AM PST by JamesP81 ("I am against "zero tolerance" policies. It is a crutch for idiots." --FReeper Tenacious 1)
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To: JamesP81
I’ve always debated with my peers about the ‘this generation shall not pass away’ part of scripture. Jesus uses this word several times in the gospels and never does it appear to mean a literal generation, but more generally refers to a group of people, or a certain kind of people.

For example?

"The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here." (Matt. 12:41)

Jesus always seemed to be using the phrase to draw attention to the then-living generation of Jews who were about to reject Him as their Messiah and crucify Him.

4 posted on 02/13/2008 10:19:10 AM PST by topcat54 ("Light beer is the devilís beverage.")
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To: topcat54
He is referring to that first-century generation, not some undesignated future generation

No he isn't.

He's referring to the generation he was talking about at that time in that discourse.

5 posted on 02/13/2008 11:04:59 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: topcat54

Yawn. Sorry but been there and done that so many times that debate or discussion no longer interests me.


6 posted on 02/13/2008 12:21:59 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: xzins

“He’s referring to the generation he was talking about at that time in that discourse.”

You say that as if God wrote it down for you. Pray tell - share with us.


7 posted on 02/13/2008 12:56:28 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: topcat54

I’ve heard that the word for Generation can also mean Race.


8 posted on 02/13/2008 1:36:10 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: JamesP81
Mat3v7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

9 posted on 02/13/2008 3:01:35 PM PST by just me
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg

It’s simple bible hermeneutics.

If Jesus is discussing blessing — say in a section we call the beatitudes — then that segment of scripture is a unit.

If he’s telling the story of the prodigal son, then that story is a unit, as are its introducing and concluding verses. Within the story, there is the situation, the son in a far land, the return, and the older brother. Each of those subunits also are told with words, sentences, and structures that are appropriate to that part of the story.

Same with the Olivet Discourse.


10 posted on 02/13/2008 7:22:03 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins; Manfred the Wonder Dawg
It’s simple bible hermeneutics. If Jesus is discussing blessing — say in a section we call the beatitudes — then that segment of scripture is a unit.

Can you relate your use of the word "unit" to anything we find in the Bible. For example, Jesus said:

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. (John 5)
Is that a "unit", according to your usage, even though it is speaking of two different things (spiritual vs. physical resurrection)? What presuppositions are you imposing on the Olivet Discourse when you say it is a "unit"?
11 posted on 02/14/2008 9:39:52 AM PST by topcat54 ("Light beer is the devilís beverage.")
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To: Kevmo
I’ve heard that the word for Generation can also mean Race.

Many Greek words have multiple meanings depending on the context. When the phrase "this generation" (gr. genea) appears in the words of Jesus it never has the meaning of "race", e.g.,:

"But He answered and said to them, 'An evil and adulterous genea seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.'" (Matt. 12:39)

Was Jesus speaking of the Jewish people as "an evil and adulterous race"?

Context helps us understand the meaning behind the actual word used.

12 posted on 02/14/2008 9:46:23 AM PST by topcat54 ("Light beer is the devilís beverage.")
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To: topcat54
It is part of a pericope that begins at John 5:16

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them,

That section begins prior to your quoted section and it continues afterwards.

"Coming, and now is" says already/not yet. The use of "hour" is a matter of time, and, given God's dominiion over time, does not necessarily mean "hour on a clock." (See day = thousand years)

13 posted on 02/14/2008 10:01:37 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins; Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Interesting, but you failed to give any reasonable explanation (hermeneutically speaking) of your use of the word "unit" and how it applies in John 5 or the Olivet Discourse, esp. wrt the greek word genea.
14 posted on 02/14/2008 11:24:23 AM PST by topcat54 ("Light beer is the devilís beverage.")
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To: topcat54

I have no idea why you are fixated on the word “unit.”

Is it greek?????


15 posted on 02/14/2008 12:08:13 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: topcat54

So the meaning of the phrase could be something like, “This RACE will not pass away until these things will come to pass ...”

That actually makes it a kinda scary prophecy.


16 posted on 02/14/2008 1:40:02 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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To: xzins; Manfred the Wonder Dawg
I have no idea why you are fixated on the word “unit.”

You were the one that brought it up in the context of "simple bible hermeneutics". But you failed to explain yourself, or how it relates to the discussion of genea in the context of the Olivet Discourse.

The Olivet Discourse starts off with a discussion of the destruction of the temple. It makes sense to take genea in this context as the generation that would witness that destruction. Why else would Jesus tell His listeners to "flee to the mountains" when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies"? That is the context of the "unit" under consideration.

17 posted on 02/14/2008 6:15:46 PM PST by topcat54 ("Light beer is the devilís beverage.")
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To: Kevmo
So the meaning of the phrase could be something like, “This RACE will not pass away until these things will come to pass ...”

Only if you ignore the historical context of the passage, and if you also ignore how a Jewish person in the 1st century would take the words of Jesus. They understood Him to be speaking of that generation then living, and they did "flee to the mountains" when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in AD70.

That actually makes it a kinda scary prophecy.

How so?

18 posted on 02/14/2008 6:18:47 PM PST by topcat54 ("Light beer is the devilís beverage.")
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To: topcat54

As always . . .

my briefest . . . most studied response continues to be . . .

HOGWASH.

Cheers.


19 posted on 02/14/2008 6:32:28 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: topcat54

Yeah, it is if you are a Reformed Theologian following in the footsteps of Chilton, Rushdoony et al. Their racist anti-Semitic theology is the basis for much of the discussion here it seems.

I’m not a Dispensationalist, I’m a Historic Premillennialist, but I’m also an expert on Reconstructionist eschatology. You want to debate these guys, ask me for info.


20 posted on 02/14/2008 7:08:20 PM PST by SonnyC46
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To: topcat54

You might want to take it up with the folks at BibleGateway.com. They show an alternate reading as “race” for that passage. I copied Matt24 and commented on various sections which didn’t seem to have come true in the time frame of AD70.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:34&version=31

34I tell you the truth, this generation[a] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Footnotes:

Matthew 24:34 Or race

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
***Did that happen in AD 70? Not as far as I can tell.

15”So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
***The abomination of desolation is a technical term that did not happen in AD 70 as far as I can tell because the temple was not used as a place to declare a new god was in charge — the temple was destroyed.

21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
***There was great distress in AD70, but to call it unequaled since the beginning of the world is a stretch. However, a nuclear exchange WOULD be unequaled.

22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
***Those days in AD70 were not cut short, and there’s never been a reason to suspect that “no one” would survive. However, in a nuclear exchange there is more than enough reason to believe so.

27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
***Did this happen in AD70? It wasn’t widely recorded if it did.

29”Immediately after the distress of those days
“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[c]
***Did this happen in AD70? Again it wasn’t well recorded if it did. And a nuclear exchange would fulfill this prediction quite well.

30”At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn.
***Did this happen in AD70? If so, it wasn’t well recorded. Certainly all the nations of the earth did not mourn because most of them had not heard of Christ by that time.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
***If this happened, it was not recorded. Note that it was these words that condemned Christ to die for blasphemy, so I’m pretty sure He intended to get this part right.

31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
***Did this happen in AD70?

33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
***Again the note is that E: could be race

That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
***Did this happen in AD70?


21 posted on 02/14/2008 11:40:42 PM PST by Kevmo (SURFRINAGWIASS : Shut Up RINOs. Free Republic is not a GOP Website. Itís a SOCON Site.)
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