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Historian reveals how Pius IX decided to proclaim dogma of Immaculate Conception (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic News Agency ^ | 2/13/2008

Posted on 02/15/2008 5:07:55 PM PST by markomalley

Historian reveals how Pius IX decided to proclaim dogma of Immaculate Conception


Vatican City, Feb 13, 2008 / 05:04 pm (CNA).- In an article published by L’Osservatore Romano, Italian historian Francesco Guglietta, an expert on the life of Pius IX, revealed how the Pontiff decided to consult with the bishops of the world to proclaim the dogma of the Immaculate Conception on December 8, 1854.

Guglietta points out that the revolution that ended with the proclamation of the “Roman Republic” in 1848 and that forced the Pope to take up residence for nine months in Gaeta, south of Rome, had a profound effect on the Pontiff, who like Cardinal Giovanni Maria Mastai Ferretti, had openly sympathized with the European revolutionary movements.

“During this lapse of time, in fact, Pius IX progressively lost trust in the processes of the ‘revolution’ that were taking place in Europe and distanced himself from the liberal Catholic environment, beginning to see in the insurrection movement, as well as in the ‘modernity’ of that time, a dangerous snare for the life of the Church,” Guglietta writes.

The expert points out that “understanding what happened with the thinking of Pius IX in Gaeta is of significant historic relevance” and is an “area of research not yet explored.”  Nevertheless, he said, the Pope’s sojourn in Gaeta was fundamental for his decision of proclaiming the Marian dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

According to tradition, Pope Pius IX spent a long period in prayer in Gaeta before a painting of the Immaculate Conception by Scipione Pulzone preserved in the so-called Chapel of Gold, and that moment of encounter with God convinced him to proclaim the dogma.

However, French historian and professor Louis Baunard said that while gazing upon the Mediterranean from the city, “the Pope mediated on remarks made to him by Cardinal Luigi Lambruschini: Holy Father, you will not be able to heal the world unless you proclaim the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.  Only this dogmatic definition will reestablish the meaning of the Christian truths and bring minds back from the paths of naturalism upon which they have become lost.”

According to Guglietta, naturalism, which rejected all supernatural truth, could be considered the “backdrop” for the Pope’s proclamation of the dogma.  “The affirmation of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin laid a strong foundation for affirming and strengthening the certainty of the primacy of grace and the work of Providence in the lives of men.”

He said Pius IX, despite his enthusiasm, welcomed the idea of consulting with the bishops of the world, who expressed their agreement, leading him to finally proclaim the dogma.


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: piusix; vatican
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 02/15/2008 5:07:56 PM PST by markomalley
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To: markomalley

“He said Pius IX, despite his enthusiasm, welcomed the idea of consulting with the bishops of the world, who expressed their agreement, leading him to finally proclaim the dogma.”

Should have consulted with God.


2 posted on 02/15/2008 5:14:57 PM PST by Bob J ("For every 1000 hacking at the branches of evil, one is striking at it's root.")
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To: Bob J

Who said he didn’t?


3 posted on 02/15/2008 5:31:26 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480

If he consulted with God there would be no need to consult with the Bishops.


4 posted on 02/15/2008 5:47:32 PM PST by Bob J ("For every 1000 hacking at the branches of evil, one is striking at it's root.")
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To: markomalley

How interesting. I’ve always liked Pio Nono.


5 posted on 02/15/2008 5:55:54 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Good guy wins, bad guy gets dead. Nothing to cry over here." ~ trimom)
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To: Bob J

“Should have consulted with God.”

that was my thought and then go back and read his scriptures again.


6 posted on 02/15/2008 6:02:27 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: markomalley

Thanks for posting, I’ve never heard this before.


7 posted on 02/15/2008 6:05:47 PM PST by Judith Anne (I have no idea what to put here. Not a clue.)
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To: swmobuffalo; Bob J

He’s been dead for 130 years this year. I can tell you this though, that he wouldn’t the advice of “Reformed” Christian who offer the same old platitudes.


8 posted on 02/15/2008 6:11:26 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480

“that he wouldn’t the advice of “Reformed” Christian who offer the same old platitudes”

I’m guessing you mean “listen to” the advice etc, etc.

Them same old platitudes still hold true. When you can provide chapter and verse regarding the SCRIPTURAL validity of the man mad Marian doctrine, then we might talk.


9 posted on 02/15/2008 6:15:18 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Pyro7480

Did I spell “caucus” wrong or something?


10 posted on 02/15/2008 6:17:59 PM PST by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: swmobuffalo

When you can prove to me that Christianity is a religion based SOLELY on the Bible, then we might talk as well. As St. Bernard of Clairvaux famously put it, the Christian faith “is not a religion of the Book,” but of the Word of God - “not of a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”


11 posted on 02/15/2008 6:22:44 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: swmobuffalo

Did you not see the word “Caucus” in the thread title?


12 posted on 02/15/2008 6:23:46 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Pyro7480

“Did you not see the word “Caucus” in the thread title?”

Which means what?


14 posted on 02/15/2008 6:29:45 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: swmobuffalo; WileyPink; Religion Moderator
From the Religion Moderator's profile

3. “Closed” threads on the Religion Forum include devotionals, prayer threads and caucuses. The header of the thread should make it obvious that the thread is closed, i.e. like a church meeting behind closed doors. Such assemblies will not be disturbed. Any challenges or ridicule will be removed. Any thread can be designated a caucus - e.g. labeled as a “[Catholic Caucus]” or “[LDS Caucus]” - provided that neither the article nor any of the posts challenge [*see footnote] or ridicule any other confession. These are “safe harbors” for those who are easily offended or are ill equipped to defend their own confession.

*Footnote on Caucuses

When we first began using Caucus labels to close threads in the interest of providing “safe harbor,” the Calvinists posted several articles which represented what the Catholics believe. Several Catholics strongly objected to such a thread qualifying for a closed caucus. Other posters agreed and so did I. After much discussion on thread, we determined that a caucus thread cannot be used as cover to take shots at another confession, argue against other confessions’ doctrines and traditions and so on. The other confession has an interest in rebutting statements made "against" it - no matter how mild those statements might be. Factual statements alone cannot remove a caucus protection, e.g. the current Pope is named Benedict, Martin Luther died in 1546, etc. But when a poster of another confession protests that statements made in a Caucus are incomplete, inaccurate, a strawman or whatever – and I determine those statements to have merit - the Caucus label must be removed so that rebuttals can be made.

15 posted on 02/15/2008 6:32:38 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Pyro7480

It would have been more helpful to politely point that out. I saw the title and concluded the “Catholic Caucus” was in reference to the group of bishops.

You’re assuming much in my remarks to the poster I FIRST replied to. YOU continued the conversation and now you want to complain? Ok. Whatever.


16 posted on 02/15/2008 6:41:05 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: swmobuffalo; markomalley

I didn’t notice it until markomalley, the person who posted the thread, pinged me.


17 posted on 02/15/2008 6:42:24 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Religion Moderator

Please see explanation in post number 16. Thank you.


18 posted on 02/15/2008 6:42:33 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Pyro7480
I didn’t notice it until markomalley, the person who posted the thread, pinged me.

And I pinged you as a snide, snarky gesture (as in "geez, can't folks read around here???). Had I intended to invoke the wrath of mod, I would have pinged the mod.

19 posted on 02/15/2008 6:47:09 PM PST by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley

The problem is that you can only see (Catholic Cau) in the window bar, and that’s probably why I didn’t see it in the first place.


20 posted on 02/15/2008 6:51:14 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: markomalley

Thanks for this history.

I wasn’t aware of such details nor the timing.

Blessings,


21 posted on 02/15/2008 7:06:28 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: markomalley

Ping to read later


22 posted on 02/15/2008 7:14:17 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time." - Amos 5:13)
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To: Tax-chick
I’ve always liked Pio Nono

The trouble this guy caused!

He decided to get all modern and trendy with his social and democratic policies, influencing even the likes of Catholic College Boys like Chris Matthews, O'Reilly, .. but at heart and at home in the Papal States he was quite the autocrat, throwing folks into Papal jails willy-nilly for not paying taxes, etc. etc.

If Iwere you, I'd switch to the Pio Decimo fan club immediately.

23 posted on 02/15/2008 7:33:26 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (Dream Tickets: Gore/Obama vs. Petraeus/Blackwell.)
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To: Kenny Bunk
He decided to get all modern and trendy with his social and democratic policies, influencing even the likes of Catholic College Boys like Chris Matthews, O'Reilly

WHAT?

24 posted on 02/15/2008 7:36:18 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Kenny Bunk
If Iwere you, I'd switch to the Pio Decimo fan club immediately.

Rah rah X, rah rah X :o)

25 posted on 02/15/2008 7:44:16 PM PST by LordBridey (Huckabee's got game.)
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To: Kenny Bunk

Oh, I like Pius X, too. (Good anachronism, btw, cute all around :-).


26 posted on 02/15/2008 7:48:41 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Good guy wins, bad guy gets dead. Nothing to cry over here." ~ trimom)
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To: Bob J
According to tradition, Pope Pius IX spent a long period in prayer in Gaeta before a painting of the Immaculate Conception by Scipione Pulzone preserved in the so-called Chapel of Gold, and that moment of encounter with God convinced him to proclaim the dogma.

......French historian and professor Louis Baunard said that while gazing upon the Mediterranean from the city, “the Pope mediated on remarks made to him by Cardinal Luigi Lambruschini: Holy Father, you will not be able to heal the world unless you proclaim the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Only this dogmatic definition will reestablish the meaning of the Christian truths and bring minds back from the paths of naturalism upon which they have become lost.”

You may recall that the modernists were just about to seize on the publication of "Origin of the Species," as a definite repudiation of the supernatural. Against this was the decision by the pope to hurl into the teeth of this repudiation of Divine Providence the claim that God became man as the child of a devout Jewish girl in an obscure village in a backward province. A pure soul was created in an ordinary human being who was thereby able to greet the Holy Spirit with that unconditional love that God had wished to receive from our first parents and to bear the most extraordinary child every born, the flesh of her flesh ,who was God's love made manifest ways that even you and I can understand.

27 posted on 02/15/2008 7:59:24 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: markomalley; Religion Moderator; swmobuffalo; Bob J; Kenny Bunk

Sorry that some people are not reading “Catholic Caucus” here. What to do?

Hopefully they will remember they are attending to a closed caucus thread.


28 posted on 02/15/2008 8:43:04 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: markomalley
Historian reveals how Pius IX decided to proclaim dogma of Immaculate Conception (Catholic Caucus)

The Immaculate Vs. the Proud

Immaculate Conception Novena -- starts November 30th [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

Blessed John Duns Scotus Champion Of Mary's Immaculate Conception (CATHOLIC CAUCUS)

The Crusade of Mary Immaculate - St. Maximilian Kolbe (Catholic Caucus)

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

Three Reasons the Church’s Enemies Hate The Immaculate Conception

Her saving grace - the origins of the Immaculate Conception

Mary Is a Model Who Works With Us and in Us

U.S. Catholic bishops to renew consecration of nation to Immaculate Conception

Catholic Meditation: To the Immaculate Conception on this Election Day

My visit to the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception

On Solemnity of Immaculate Conception - "In Mary Shines the Eternal Goodness of the Creator"

Pope makes pilgrimage to Mary statue in Rome, marking the feast of the Immaculate Conception

Pope: Mary the Immaculate Conception... (text of BXVI speech)

"Tota pulchra es, Maria, et macula originalis non est in te" (The Immaculate Conception)

The Immaculate Conception — Essential to the Faith

"Who Are You, Immaculate Conception?"

TURKEY Ephesus: The Feast of the Immaculate Conception at Mary’s House

Coming Dec 8th. Feast of the "Immaculate Conception"

Why the Immaculate Conception?

Catholic Encyclopedia: Immaculate Conception (The Doctrine and Its Roots)

The Immaculate Conception of Our Lady December 8

Mary's Immaculate Conception: A Memorable Anniversary

Ineffabilis Deus: 8 December 1854 (Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)

Why do we believe in the Immaculate Conception?

John Paul II goes to Lourdes; reflections on the Immaculate Conception

Your Praises We Sing--on the Dogma of the Proclamation of the Immaculate Conception, Dec. 8th

Eastern Christianity and the Immaculate Conception (Q&A From EWTN)

Memorandum on the Immaculate Conception [Newman]

On The Feast of The Immaculate Conception, The Patroness of the US, We Must Pray For Our Country[Read only]

29 posted on 02/15/2008 8:46:33 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Pyro7480
The problem is that you can only see (Catholic Cau) in the window bar

I'm using Firefox and "(Catholic Caucus)" shows up in the title/window bar.

30 posted on 02/15/2008 9:00:44 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: markomalley
An important aspect of the declaration was the affiromation of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception by the miracle of Lourdes, France.

We are celebrating the 150 year Anniversary of when the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to Bernadette and told Bernadette that she was the Immaculate COnception.

Bernadette, who had trouble rememmbering things, and did not understand the meaning of what the Lady from Heaven said, was almost clobbered by her parish priest. He initially thought that Bernadette was claiming to be the Immaculate Conception.

Berndatte was just repeating exactly what the woman from heaven said: "Je Suis Immaculate Conception!" or "I am the Immaculate Conception"...

31 posted on 02/15/2008 9:08:54 PM PST by topher (Let us return to old-fashioned morality - morality that has stood the test of time...)
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To: Salvation; markomalley; swmobuffalo; Bob J; Kenny Bunk
Evidently the long title has resulted in posters not noticing that this is a closed Catholic caucus thread.

Posters who are not Catholic should either leave the thread or behave here as if it were a meeting behind the closed doors of a Catholic church.

32 posted on 02/15/2008 9:51:05 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: topher

The one thing wrong with Jennifer Jones’ portrayal of Bernardette in the movie was that she made Bernadette into a clever girl when she was in fact somewhat dull.


33 posted on 02/15/2008 10:54:50 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: Religion Moderator
Evidently the long title has resulted in posters not noticing that this is a closed Catholic caucus thread. Posters who are not Catholic should either leave the thread or behave here as if it were a meeting behind the closed doors of a Catholic church.

My question was posed as a legitimate question to catholics. It was not offensive or in any way out of place. I would have asked the question "behind closed doors" of a catholic church.

Am I not allowed to ask questions?

In Christ...Alone!

34 posted on 02/16/2008 4:48:31 AM PST by WileyPink ("...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6b)
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To: Religion Moderator; administrator
I will direct you to the following thread:

Sunday School Bible Study – “Practice Genuine Purity” Matthew 15:1-20 [Bible Study Caucus]

As you can see by this thread, NYer and Salvation were allowed to "ask questions" regarding my regular worship practices without retribution or having their questions pulled so rudely as mine were.

I am now posting a formal complaint and respectfully request that my original question be re-placed in this thread and the discussion allowed as it was in my caucus.

With due respect...and...

In Christ...Alone!

35 posted on 02/16/2008 5:13:40 AM PST by WileyPink ("...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6b)
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To: NYer; Salvation; Religion Moderator
Sorry, I should have pinged you both regarding the above post.

My apologies.

In Christ...Alone!

36 posted on 02/16/2008 5:24:15 AM PST by WileyPink ("...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6b)
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To: WileyPink; Religion Moderator; Salvation
As you can see by this thread, NYer and Salvation were allowed to "ask questions" regarding my regular worship practices without retribution or having their questions pulled so rudely as mine were.

Thank you, Wiley, for posting the link to the Sunday Bible Study thread. Quoting from that thread you wrote:

With respect, this is a Sunday School Bible Study Caucus. The comments and opinion should be based on the lesson at hand which is given in the Lifeway publications and used in many Baptist churches.

Bible Study is non-denominational. This thread clearly states Catholic Caucus. In your response posted above, you indicate that your thread is a Sunday School Bible Study Caucus. The Bible is non denominational. Should you wish to limit responses to your threads, perhaps you should label them as (Baptist Caucus) or (Protestant Caucus). That would be a clear signal to Catholics not to participate. Personally, I welcome your postings to any of my threads. The Catholic Church is committed to Ecumenism. As the Holy Father reminded us in his Encyclical Ut unum sint:

Jesus himself, at the hour of his Passion, prayed "that they may all be one" (Jn 17:21)

In this season of Lent, that should be the prayer of all christians. This is not my thread, however, and the Religion Moderator is following the agreed upon guidelines previously established.

In Christ!

37 posted on 02/16/2008 5:55:46 AM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: WileyPink; NYer; Salvation
The caucus on your thread is "Bible study" - anyone who believes in the Bible would be part of the caucus. Therefore, NYer and Salvation were not disturbing the caucus by asking questions.

The caucus on this thread is "Catholic" - anyone who holds to Catholic beliefs would be part of the caucus. Sometimes the caucus welcomes polite questions from non-caucus members, but there was a complaint (an abuse report) that your question disturbed the caucus. Therefore, it was pulled and will not be restored.

38 posted on 02/16/2008 7:41:34 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: Pyro7480; LordBridey; Tax-chick
Pyro,et al: forgive me, confused my Pio Nono with my Leo XIII of Rerum novarum! Maxima friggin' culpa mea.

However, I am sticking to my guns to this extent: P-9 had many "liberal" instincts in that he sympathized with many of the groups trying to liberate and unify Italy, that is until he found out they were not exactly religious zealots, to put it mildly. Then he cracked down on'em

OTOH, Leo XIII's encyclical, an absolutely key document in the formation of modern Europe, laid out the basis of Christian Socialism, and beyond that the modern nanny-state. It also is (or was) a foundation text in Catholic Colleges for many areas of study. It is so powerful that (IMHO)it permanently turned the heads of many students leftward, giving rise to the Catholic Worker Party and IMHO, giving the Democrats a permanent lock on a majority of Catholic intellectuals (real and soi-disant). A pity, because the Democrats who really run the show are fond of real, down and dirty gulag killer Communism and despise people of faith, especially Catholics, and particularly those of the working classes.

Enter Russert, Matthews, and O'Reilly. The first two are Holy Cross boys, where the Jesuits probably made sure Rerum novarum was served at every meal. O'Reilly got his indoctrination in Leo XIII's encyclical at Marist College, a low-SAT operation, but thorough none the less.

To reinforce my curmudgeonly theory, this "Gang of Three" are thoroughly partisan Democrats, the "Fairness" shtick just originally being a ploy to cash in on the white male audience of conservative talk radio. However, at the heart of the Democrat establishment, where they assiduously curry favor in disgusting ways, they are roundly despised. Go figure.

To undigress and return to the subject of the the thread: The Immaculate Conception. Many non-Catholics think P-9 pulled this dogma from thin air as a demo of Papal Power, which he incientally also proclaimed. Not true. The Immaculate Conception is an ancient doctrine in all the Catholic Churches from the Chaldeans throught the Armenians, Greeks, Russians, and even the Anglicans. P-9's move was spectacular, the real question is, "was it strictly speaking, necessary?"

40 posted on 02/16/2008 8:10:57 AM PST by Kenny Bunk (Dream Tickets: Gore/Obama vs. Petraeus/Blackwell.)
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To: Pyro7480; LordBridey; Tax-chick
Pyro,et al: forgive me, confused my Pio Nono with my Leo XIII of Rerum novarum! Maxima friggin' culpa mea.

However, I am sticking to my guns to this extent: P-9 had many "liberal" instincts in that he sympathized with many of the groups trying to liberate and unify Italy, that is until he found out they were not exactly religious zealots, to put it mildly. Then he cracked down on'em

OTOH, Leo XIII's encyclical, an absolutely key document in the formation of modern Europe, laid out the basis of Christian Socialism, and beyond that the modern nanny-state. It also is (or was) a foundation text in Catholic Colleges for many areas of study. It is so powerful that (IMHO)it permanently turned the heads of many students leftward, giving rise to the Catholic Worker Party and IMHO, giving the Democrats a permanent lock on a majority of Catholic intellectuals (real and soi-disant). A pity, because the Democrats who really run the show are fond of real, down and dirty gulag killer Communism and despise people of faith, especially Catholics, and particularly those of the working classes.

Enter Russert, Matthews, and O'Reilly. The first two are Holy Cross boys, where the Jesuits probably made sure Rerum novarum was served at every meal. O'Reilly got his indoctrination in Leo XIII's encyclical at Marist College, a low-SAT operation, but thorough none the less.

To reinforce my curmudgeonly theory, this "Gang of Three" are thoroughly partisan Democrats, the "Fairness" shtick just originally being a ploy to cash in on the white male audience of conservative talk radio. However, at the heart of the Democrat establishment, where they assiduously curry favor in disgusting ways, they are roundly despised. Go figure.

To undigress and return to the subject of the the thread: The Immaculate Conception. Many non-Catholics think P-9 pulled this dogma from thin air as a demo of Papal Power, which he incientally also proclaimed. Not true. The Immaculate Conception is an ancient doctrine in all the Catholic Churches from the Chaldeans throught the Armenians, Greeks, Russians, and even the Anglicans. P-9's move was spectacular, the real question is, "was it strictly speaking, necessary?"

41 posted on 02/16/2008 8:14:11 AM PST by Kenny Bunk (Dream Tickets: Gore/Obama vs. Petraeus/Blackwell.)
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To: Kenny Bunk
P-9's move was spectacular; the real question is, "Was it, strictly speaking, necessary?"

Most interesting discussion. However, I would say the real question is, "Was it God's will?" I'm just a humble suburban baby-producer, and not qualified to form an opinion on this.

42 posted on 02/16/2008 8:52:57 AM PST by Tax-chick ("Good guy wins, bad guy gets dead. Nothing to cry over here." ~ trimom)
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To: markomalley; Kolokotronis; wagglebee; Salvation
According to Guglietta, naturalism, which rejected all supernatural truth, could be considered the “backdrop” for the Pope’s proclamation of the dogma. “The affirmation of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin laid a strong foundation for affirming and strengthening the certainty of the primacy of grace and the work of Providence in the lives of men.”

The primacy of grace versus naturalism's rejection of the supernatural.

Grace = an antidote to anti-supernatural naturalism.

"A" - Mary's Immaculate Conception (origin in supernatural grace?) leads to "B" - the demise of naturalism.

I am not a Roman Catholic but I desire to see how A leads to B

Can someone tell me how this works?

43 posted on 02/16/2008 4:19:53 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins; markomalley; wagglebee; Salvation

“Can someone tell me how this works?”

Not I, padre. Virtually all the explanations I have seen for the promulgation of this dogma, including this one, have been unpersuasive. However, it seems to me obvious that if one accepts the Augustinian notion of Original Sin, as I believe Methodists do, the IC not only makes perfect sense, it is theologically necessary. I hasten to add that Orthodoxy does not share the West’s notions about original Sin and thus neither do we accept the IC.


44 posted on 02/16/2008 4:31:23 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: markomalley; Elvina; ConservativeTrucker; SavannahJake; PaulZe; AKA Elena; Oshkalaboomboom; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

45 posted on 02/16/2008 4:35:40 PM PST by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: Kenny Bunk
OTOH, Leo XIII's encyclical, an absolutely key document in the formation of modern Europe, laid out the basis of Christian Socialism, and beyond that the modern nanny-state.

Huh???

I assume you are speaking about Rerum Novarum. If you actually cared to read it, you'd see clearly that it made very grave warnings against the evils of socialism. For example, paragraph 30 of that encyclical states:

30. Thus, by degrees, came into existence the patrimony which the Church has guarded with religious care as the inheritance of the poor. Nay, in order to spare them the shame of begging, the Church has provided aid for the needy. The common Mother of rich and poor has aroused everywhere the heroism of charity, and has established congregations of religious and many other useful institutions for help and mercy, so that hardly any kind of suffering could exist which was not afforded relief. At the present day many there are who, like the heathen of old, seek to blame and condemn the Church for such eminent charity. They would substitute in its stead a system of relief organized by the State. But no human expedients will ever make up for the devotedness and self sacrifice of Christian charity. Charity, as a virtue, pertains to the Church; for virtue it is not, unless it be drawn from the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ; and whosoever turns his back on the Church cannot be near to Christ.

Now if that is not a condemnation of 'welfare,' I don't know what is!

You can look at his other encyclicals, as well, to see this. For example,

from Quod Multum:

4. Nevertheless to restrain the danger of socialism there is only one genuinely effective means, in the absence of which the fear of punishment has little weight to discourage offenders. It is that citizens should be thoroughly educated in religion, and restrained by respect for and love of the Church. For the Church as parent and teacher is the holy guardian of religion, moral integrity, and virtue. All who follow the precepts of the Gospel religiously and entirely are, by this very fact, far from the suspicion of socialism. For religion commands us to worship and fear God and to submit to and obey legitimate authority. It forbids anyone to act seditiously and demands for everyone the security of his possessions and rights. It furthermore commands those who have wealth to come graciously to the aid of the poor. Religion aids the needy with all the works of charity and consoles those who suffer loss, enkindling in them the hope of the greatest eternal blessings which will be in proportion to the labor endured and the length of that labor. Therefore those who rule the states will do nothing wiser and more opportune than to recognize that religion influences the people despite all obstacles and recalls them to virtue and uprightness of character through her teachings. To distrust the Church or hold it suspect is, in the first place, unjust, and in the second, profits no one except the enemies of civil discipline and those bent on destruction.

In fact, another encyclical of Leo XII, Graves de communi re, lays out his opposition to so-called "Christian Socialism" very bluntly:

4. This work of popular aid had, at first, no name of its own. The name of Christian Socialism, with its derivatives, which was adopted by some was very properly allowed to fall into disuse. Afterwards, some asked to have it called the popular Christian Movement. In the countries most concerned with this matter, there are some who are known as Social Christians. Elsewhere, the movement is described as Christian Democracy and its partisans as Christian Democrats, in opposition to what the socialists call Social Democracy. Not much exception is taken to the first of these two names, i.e., Social Christians, but many excellent men find the term Christian Democracy objectionable. They hold it to be very ambiguous and for this reason open to two objections. It seems by implication covertly to favor popular government and to disparage other methods of political administration. Secondly, it appears to belittle religion by restricting its scope to the care of the poor, as if the other sections of society were not of its concern. More than that, under the shadow of its name there might easily lurk a design to attack all legitimate power, either civil or sacred. Wherefore, since this discussion is now so widespread, and so bitter, the consciousness of duty warns Us to put a check on this controversy and to define what Catholics are to think on this matter.

As to the history of the Catholics and the Democrats, you ought to look up the history of the Know-Nothings, and the relationship to the Whigs and the early Republicans. As the majority of Catholics in the country at the time were either German or (mostly) Irish immigrants, I think it'll fall in line.

46 posted on 02/16/2008 4:57:21 PM PST by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Kolokotronis

My concern wasn’t with the IC, but with HOW the IC overcomes materialistic naturalism.

Any ideas?


47 posted on 02/16/2008 4:58:15 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: xzins
It works the same way that the Consecration of Russia to the Blessed Virgin provided the spiritual underpinnings for the fall of communism in that country.

In this case, I don't see the fulfillment of that prediction yet...but I believe that it will happen at some point. (Look at the article I posted earlier today that kids are becoming more pro-life than their parents...with the propagandizing going on in public schools, who'da thunk that would have ever happened either?)

48 posted on 02/16/2008 5:05:25 PM PST by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: xzins

“Any ideas?”

Absolutely none.


49 posted on 02/16/2008 5:10:52 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: markomalley; Kolokotronis
consecration of Russia to the Blessed Virgin

So, it is a spiritual force at work rather than a cause/effect sequence that can be spelled out.

I would say if asked "How to change Iraq?" that the US should buy a computer and the internet for every home in the country. Exposure to the modern world would lead to the demise of backward beliefs would be how I'd explain "internet leads to changed Iraq." (This is just an illustration, so don't push me on this point. :>)

You don't think there is any cause/effect sequence that explains HOW the IC leads to the demise of naturalism. Is that correct?

50 posted on 02/16/2008 5:18:13 PM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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