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All Roads Lead To Rome (A Southern Baptist's Journey into the Catholic Church)
Confiteordeo ^ | John David Young

Posted on 02/19/2008 11:55:18 AM PST by NYer

I know that I was not the first Protestant to learn the truth about the Catholic Church; I am sure that this is a story you could probably hear from countless other people, changing only the names and places. I know that many have walked the road that I have; that road which leads home, to Rome!

I was born in 1975 to two God-fearing Southern Baptists in Dallas, Texas. My father had grown up Methodist, but became Baptist when he married my mother in 1968. From what my father has said, his family was mostly Methodist. His father and his paternal grandfather were both Thirty-Third Degree Masons. My father's paternal grandfather's father was even the founding pastor of the First Methodist Church of Dallas. Though I have heard the history of my father's family, I myself knew only a very few of them. A great majority of my mother's family was Baptist, with a smattering of Methodists here and there. I am fairly certain of one thing, however: there were no Catholics.

Since a very young age, I can remember going to church and Sunday school on Sunday mornings to listen to the preacher and my Sunday school teachers talk about Jesus, and how He would save us from the fires of Hell. Every Sunday morning, my parents and I would sing in church and listen to the sermons. Though we didn't usually attend the Sunday evening services, I knew that once a month on a Sunday evening, an event called The Lord's Supper would happen. At this Lord's Supper, the preacher would begin passing around large round trays made of chrome. One of the trays had tiny crackers on it, and the other one had little cups of grape juice. I can remember that before I was baptized I wanted to take part in this event, but my parents would not let me. They did not explain why I shouldn't, other than I hadn't been baptized yet. Just as it is in the Catholic Church, Baptism is an initiation of sorts into the active life of the church community. (Of course, to a Catholic, it is that and much more. I would not know this until much later.) A few years went by, and when I was about eight years old, I decided that I wanted to be "saved" and get baptized. To get "saved," you would pray a little prayer like, "Dear Jesus, please come into my heart and forgive me of all of my sins. I ask you to become my personal Lord and Savior. All these things I pray in Jesus' name. Amen." From a Baptist viewpoint, being baptized is only a symbol, and nothing more. In other words, for a Baptist, baptism isn't really necessary for salvation. After I got baptized, I was able to partake in the Lord's Supper. I asked my father what the Lord's Supper meant, and he said that it represented the body and the blood of Jesus. That is to say, it represented the sacrifice that He made for us on the Cross. My father then read the passage from a King James Bible that told about the establishment of what we called The Lord's Supper: "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:19-20, KJV)" I asked why it was that we only did this once a month, and even then at the evening service (most people went to the morning service). My father thought about it for a minute, then he said that the Catholics do it every Sunday at all of their services. (In actuality, most Catholic churches have at least one Mass every day except Good Friday; Catholics are bound to attend Mass only on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation.) He said that perhaps we do it less often so as not to imitate them. As you can imagine, I did not understand this for what it was. The Baptists, and many other Protestant groups, were concerned that the "Lord's Supper" would become the focus of the church service rather than the sermon. Though there are some Protestant churches that have communion every Sunday, none of them place the same importance on the Eucharist that the Catholic Church does.

My father had nothing personal against Catholics; in fact, of all the people in my family, he probably liked them more than anyone else in our family did. My mother had a problem with the Catholic Church, but if you asked her why, she really couldn't tell you. She would give the same rote answers that many Protestants had been giving for centuries. "They worship the Pope, Mary, and the Saints." "They think a person can forgive their sins rather than God." She couldn't explain why she believed these things, or in the case of the last statement, she couldn't explain why a person couldn't say that your sins are forgiven. When I finally asked her why she thought a person could not forgive sins after the Bible said that Christ gave that power to the Apostles, she said she'd just rather confess directly to God. I believe that the real reason that she did not like Catholicism was because her father did not like it. I really believe that was the main reason. For some reason, my maternal grandfather (whom we have always called "Smittie") has a fairly wide streak of anti-Catholicism in him. Even as a child, I remembered him complaining every time the Pope was on television or in the newspaper. Whenever we were at a restaurant or shopping and we saw someone with a large family (four or five kids or more), he would often joke that they must be Catholic. The ironic thing about his dislike of the Church is that virtually all of his friends (excepting those from his church) since he became an adult were Catholic. I don't think that he had anything personal against individual Catholics; it was the Church that bothered him. Smittie was in England during World War II, and he found many friends there, all Catholic. He always spoke highly of them. He missed them all very much, too; all but a few of them had been killed in the war and those few survivors had died since. To this day, I do not know what makes Smittie think that the Church is somehow diabolical or at the very least, misled. I've often wondered if it had something to do with his association with Freemasonry. By the way, he is a Third Degree Mason (Master Mason), though he has not been an active Mason for many years.

Now you can see where I came from. A Southern Baptist upbringing with lots of anti-Catholic influence from just about everyone in my family and my church, with the possible exception of my father. If, when I was in high school, someone had told me that I would one day become Catholic, I would have literally laughed in his face. By the time I was fifteen, I had truly learned to have contempt for the Catholic Church. Not Catholic people, you understand, just the beliefs of and possibly the clergy of the Church. I figured that most Catholics were simply misled, and too ignorant to realize it. After all, "everyone knows" that Catholics are forbidden to read the Bible, right?! [a common Protestant myth]

I entered high school and turned fifteen at about the same time, and high school was a much bigger place than the middle school where I had attended. I decided to get involved in some of the clubs in school to make friends, and one of the clubs was called Raiders for Christ (the Raiders was the school mascot). This club was made up of mostly Protestant and "Evangelical" Christians of various denominations. In the meetings, we talked about "witnessing" to people, getting "saved," and how we should carry our Bible around as a good example to others. I decided that I would try to talk to people in classes and invite them to church with me. From some people, I got a fairly good response. Some would say they had already been "saved," and currently attended another church. Some would say that they had been "saved" and that they felt that church was not necessary because they read the Bible often anyway. I had no problem with these people. However, I ran into some that caused problems. As you can guess, these were the Catholics.

Many Catholics that I met did not know their faith very well, but they did go to Mass every Sunday. I derided them for not knowing why they believed the things that they believed. I said that it was apparent that the Catholic Church was based on blind faith and that reason was nowhere to be found. I told several people that if they did not renounce the Catholic Church and accept Christ as their "personal Lord and Savior," that they would most certainly go to Hell. I'm sure that these people did not appreciate what I was saying, and I am quite thankful that they were more charitable to me than I was to them. One particular Catholic with whom I made friends was a teacher at the school. In fact, she was one of the sponsors of an extra-curricular organization of which I was a member for three years. She knew her faith VERY well, and for that I am glad. I admit, however, it was quite frustrating at times. After all, I couldn't win a debate with her. While she did not convert me to Catholicism, she did put me on the right track. I quit harassing the Catholics so much and tried to see them as fellow Christians rather than "the enemy."

I graduated from high school, still a Baptist, though not a particularly devout one anymore. I didn't go to church very often, and I had begun to lose faith; not so much in God as in being Baptist. I felt that there were contradictions between what the Bible says and what the Baptists teach. For instance, Baptists teach that once you are "saved," you are always "saved." That is practically a dogma of the Baptist Church, as well as some other Protestant churches: "once saved, always saved." The problem here, is that there is no support in the Bible for this position. Scripture does refute this position: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12, KJV)" (If you notice, I quote from the King James Version of the Bible because it is the universally accepted version of the Bible in Protestant churches.) Considering that a favorite saying of the Baptists was "No creed but the Bible," you can see why I was beginning to be skeptical. Here are some more (though certainly not all) doctrinal paradoxes:

The Baptist Myth

What the (King James) Bible Says

"Alcoholic beverages are inherently bad."

"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. (1 Timothy 5:23, KJV)"

"So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. (John 4:46, KJV)"

"Dancing is bad."

"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. (2 Samuel 6:14, KJV)"

"Salvation (being saved? occurs in an instant."

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Phillipians 2:12, KJV)"

"We only need Scripture, not traditions."

(This is an attack on the Catholic belief in Sacred Tradition. It is a pillar of the Protestant Reformation known as Sola Scriptura)

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6, KJV)"

"Everyone can interpret Scripture for him/herself."

(In other words, we don’t need an authoritative body like the Magisterium, or teaching office, of the Catholic Church to interpret for us.)

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20, KJV)"

"Faith alone, not works, will get you saved."

(This is one of the other main principles of the Protestant Reformation: it is called Sola Fide)

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26, KJV)"

 

The list is seemingly endless, so I’ll stop here. As you can see, many of the beliefs of both the Protestant Reformation in general as well as the Southern Baptist Convention were at odds with the Bible. And not just any Bible, but even the one that the Protestants so cherished! (Rest assured, these verses are not much different in a Catholic Bible.)

At any rate, I was nineteen years old, and attending a major public university. I was exposed to many things that I had never been around before, mostly because my parents were somewhat over-protective of me. I felt quite far from God during my first year in college. Toward the end of my freshman year, my girlfriend from high school, whom I had been dating for over three years, and I broke up. I started dating a younger Catholic girl who lived in the Dallas area. Her uncle was actually a bishop in the northeastern United States. She was not particularly devout, but at the time, it didn’t matter to me. Actually, I figured that if we ended up together it would be easy to convert her to Protestantism and away from the Catholic Church. After we had been dating for about a month, her sister was graduating from high school, so I went to see her sister’s baccalaureate Mass. I had never been to a Mass before; I had been inside a Catholic church maybe once or twice before in my whole life. When I got home that night, I cried because I thought that since she was Catholic, she would be doomed to Hell if I couldn’t help her "see the light". However, the more I thought about what I had seen, the more intrigued I became.

First of all, the Mass was not what I had been told that it was: a pagan ceremony. To those of you reading this who are Catholic, this may seem humorous, but many Protestants, especially those leaning toward "fundamentalism," seem to think that Catholics are pagans or Satan worshippers or something along those lines. I don’t know where this myth got started, but I would sure love to put it to rest. For those of you not familiar with the Mass, here is the basic structure:


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: baptist; convert
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To: NYer

You’d think apostasy was a new thing.


101 posted on 02/19/2008 6:34:12 PM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: papertyger; narses; Religion Moderator
Greetings from your Religion Moderator

Religion Moderator's homepage

102 posted on 02/19/2008 6:34:32 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

“It seems standard OP on FR much of the time for alot of vitriol to be directed both at Catholics and Mormons (please excuse if you have great objections to the latter especially). And I mean vitriol. While I don’t see enough threads, I have yet to see that heavy and endemic vitriol hurled in other Christian directions.”

Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear enough. I’m tired of the rampant (unwarranted) bigotry and venom hurled both at Catholics and Mormons here.


103 posted on 02/19/2008 6:48:38 PM PST by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Why don't you ask your co-religionists here about this?

Because you made the statement, and I'm not aware of any official Church pronouncement regarding such an understanding.

I would not countenance gratuitious assertions about your theology predicated on untraceable anecdotes; I'd like a substantive explaination on why you've done so with mine.

104 posted on 02/19/2008 6:50:31 PM PST by papertyger (changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
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To: the OlLine Rebel

I don’t think you are the only one who gets tired of it.

Amazingly the Catholic Church has survived centuries of such hatred and I think that the Mormon Church will to.


105 posted on 02/19/2008 6:52:34 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

I like the Mormons better because of the people here who attack them ... and Rick Warren, too :-).


106 posted on 02/19/2008 7:04:16 PM PST by Tax-chick (If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't shoot! It might be a lemur!)
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To: Salvation

My acronym stands for “Scriptural Tourette’s Syndrome” and thus does not fall into the category of profanity.


107 posted on 02/19/2008 7:04:20 PM PST by papertyger (changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
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To: Campion

Excellent post.


108 posted on 02/19/2008 7:06:10 PM PST by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: Tax-chick

The very fierce, hostile, super demeaning . . . probably even demonically inspired attacks on Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen

are very incredible, imho.

They are big boys . . . but still . . . it boggles my mind where such feelings originate from given the stimulus.


109 posted on 02/19/2008 7:11:38 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: papertyger
Because you made the statement, and I'm not aware of any official Church pronouncement regarding such an understanding.

I would not countenance gratuitious assertions about your theology predicated on untraceable anecdotes; I'd like a substantive explaination on why you've done so with mine.

I'm sorry you have decided that your quarrel is with me. How can someone who's been on this forum for so long be ignorant of the evolutionist/errantist position of most Catholic FReepers? I don't get it. I don't get it at all. All you have to do is read their posts.

There are a few Catholic inerrantists on FR, but you can count them on the fingers of one hand. I wish this weren't so, but it is.

110 posted on 02/19/2008 7:11:45 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (HaShem, HaShem, Qel Rachum veChanun; 'erekh 'appayim verav-chesed ve'emet!)
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To: All

We are at a time when all believers of our Lord Jesus Christ need to come together and seek only Him. We need to encourage others to seek Him while He still may be found. I have learned to only trust His Words. I now understand why he says that no one gets to the Father except through Him.

I have been both Catholic and Baptist. I have seen both apostates and true believers in both denominations. I believe that right now, in this present day, the biggest danger to all believers of Jesus Christ is the ever present compromise of Jesus by these apostates in order to push a relative truth. A false truth where we can all coexist in interfaith dialog under a universalistic works based theology.

That is the bottom line. Will you, as a Christian, put a man made religion, of any religion, of any Christian denomination, before your Savior?

I don’t think any of you will. I love you all.


111 posted on 02/19/2008 7:11:52 PM PST by del4hope (The "hope" in my screen name is Biblical. It's been around longer.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The vast majority of Catholic FReepers disagree with this (as a matter of fact, most Catholic FReepers are evolutionists).

Whoa, Nelly. Try that again, this time accurately: The vast majority of Catholic FReepers believe that God directs evolution, i.e. we believe in Intelligent Design as hypothesized by those legitimate scientists who see that evolution has clearlly occured throughout the Earth's natural history, but believe that "chance" or Darwinian evolution is impossible, and that all creation seems to show the guiding hand of a creator.

If you're saying the vast majority of Catholics reject the totally scientifically unsupported Young Earth silliness that uneducated folks have insinuated into, and therefore severely harmed, the Intelligent Design movement, you're darn right we do. God, in his Almighty wisdom, gave us brains and wants us to use them, and, I would hazard to guess, not to build museums in which Adam and Eve hang out with T. Rex

But what really amazes me and saddens me is that before I joined FR, I truly believed that Catholics and Fundamentalists were compatible. Now I see that Fundamentalists see Catholics as useful idiots to be used in the political process and then consigned to hell as worshippers of a Satan-driven Church. I suppose you could say, therefore, that being on FR has made me more liberal. Like the left-wing, I now wouldn't vote for a Fundamentalist for any reason, but unlike the left-wing, I started out in your corner and you drove me away. I am sure there are some wonderful Fundamentalists on this site who can convince me I'm wrong, but the constant bigotry of folks like the usual suspects (who have, naturally, already posted in this thread), has made me want to steer very clear of the whole movement.

112 posted on 02/19/2008 7:15:58 PM PST by cammie
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To: del4hope

Let me rephrase something. please replace the word “danger” with “challenge”.

Danger was not an appropriate word to use in that sentence.


113 posted on 02/19/2008 7:19:24 PM PST by del4hope (The "hope" in my screen name is Biblical. It's been around longer.)
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To: Quix

Quix, I know you and I disagree on some stuff. Oh, WELL! Doesn’t keep me up at night.

Even when people decide to be bigots ... Okay, knock themselves out. I have to write a skit in Spanish for Girl Scouts by tomorrow at noon.

But then, they expect that *nobody will say anything*! Well, sorry. Earth to Planet Zongo! It’s like when I tell my 16-year-old to “wash, rinse, dry, and put away the dishes,” and then she’s just *astonished* that everything she put in the dishwasher is back in the sink in the morning ...

If somebody decides to be ugly, eventually it’s going to come back around.

I’m garbled, I know ... not enough sleep the last few days ... but I just don’t understand the hatred. Aren’t we all trying to be what we think the Lord wants us to be?


114 posted on 02/19/2008 7:21:29 PM PST by Tax-chick (If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't shoot! It might be a lemur!)
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To: cammie; papertyger
If you're saying the vast majority of Catholics reject the totally scientifically unsupported Young Earth silliness that uneducated folks have insinuated into, and therefore severely harmed, the Intelligent Design movement, you're darn right we do. God, in his Almighty wisdom, gave us brains and wants us to use them, and, I would hazard to guess, not to build museums in which Adam and Eve hang out with T. Rex

Here's one example of the rejection of total Biblical inerrancy, papertyger.

For what it's worth, cammie, I once believed that Catholics and Fundamentalists were on the same page too. In fact, I was Catholic for six years. But I somehow got the notion that Catholics saw Fundamentalists as "useful idiots" to achieve certain political goals while regarding them as idiots (as you obviously do).

115 posted on 02/19/2008 7:21:35 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (HaShem, HaShem, Qel Rachum veChanun; 'erekh 'appayim verav-chesed ve'emet!)
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To: Campion

I might add that some may want to try reading this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-Capitalism/dp/0812972333/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203477813&sr=8-1


116 posted on 02/19/2008 7:23:54 PM PST by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
How can someone who's been on this forum for so long be ignorant of the evolutionist/errantist position of most Catholic FReepers? I don't get it. I don't get it at all. All you have to do is read their posts.

Then I take it by your turning your response directly back at me you do not intend to substantiate the assertion that :

...most Catholics ... feel that in order to be loyal to their church, they must hold the Word of G-d to be full of errors and contradictions.

117 posted on 02/19/2008 7:24:31 PM PST by papertyger (changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
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To: WileyPink
Nothing particularly wrong with Bible Gateway, except that it doesn't have many of the key editions of the Bible (like, say a Greek Testament, a Septuagint, or a Vulgate).

Young's Literal is only useful if you speak Greek or Hebrew. I wish I read Hebrew -- but I do read Greek and Latin. Worth learning if you want to read the New Testament in the original!

118 posted on 02/19/2008 7:26:55 PM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: cammie; All
But what really amazes me and saddens me is that before I joined FR, I truly believed that Catholics and Fundamentalists were compatible. Now I see that Fundamentalists see Catholics as useful idiots to be used in the political process and then consigned to hell as worshippers of a Satan-driven Church. I suppose you could say, therefore, that being on FR has made me more liberal. Like the left-wing, I now wouldn't vote for a Fundamentalist for any reason, but unlike the left-wing, I started out in your corner and you drove me away. I am sure there are some wonderful Fundamentalists on this site who can convince me I'm wrong, but the constant bigotry of folks like the usual suspects (who have, naturally, already posted in this thread), has made me want to steer very clear of the whole movement.

I hope everyone on FR reads this paragraph, and then reads it again, and then reads it again carefully.

If you want to destroy conservatism as an effective political force, drive wedges in it. Drive wedges between Mormon conservatives and everyone else, and tell the Mormons, "Keep out -- you're not wanted here". Drive wedges between Catholic conservatives and everyone else, and tell the Catholics, "Keep out -- you're not wanted here". Drive as many other wedges as you can think of to drive.

Divide and conquer has always worked, and it will always work if it's permitted to.

If you want to know why I voted for Mitt Romney and not Mike Huckabee, you have your answer. I can name 5 or 6 FReepers who alone convinced me to have nothing to do with Huckabee before ever looking at a single one of his positions.

Every one of the 5 or 6 is a vehemently anti-Catholic Protestant.

119 posted on 02/19/2008 7:43:48 PM PST by Campion
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Here's one example of the rejection of total Biblical inerrancy, papertyger.

Would it change anyting about your Confession if I told you of the man I know who has been in a traveling Gospel singing troupe for thirty years that asked me if the book of Romans was in the Old or New Testament?

What about the public school teacher that tried to publicly humiliate my wife as a child because she knew "Son of God" means "God incarnate" and he, as a lifelong Baptist, didn't?

Of course these things aren't going to change the good things you know, just as I will keep the good things I know.

Of what value is holding a doctrine of total biblical inerrancy when it manifests itself as our functionally illiterate brother boldly standing up to proclaim Acts 7:54 of the King James Bible *clearly* proves the Sanhedrin where so mad at Steven they actually bit him!

Would to God we all took Paul's advice about meat sacrificed to idols as a general instead of a specific.

120 posted on 02/19/2008 7:49:07 PM PST by papertyger (changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
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To: Tax-chick; MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg

Hatred usually comes out of childhood junk . . . at least at its roots.

But a LOT of fierceness is taken hereon as hatred when it’s not—NOT AT ALL. It’s just a fiercely intense style of saying profoundly emotional and profoundly important RELIGIOUS/spiritual things.

I think in those cases, folks need to roll with the punche and go on. Either they believe what they believe for good reasons or not. If not . . . change. If so, what does it matter how fiercely intense someone’s communicating style is???

People have mocked, derided, been haughty and hostile and even demeaning, insulting and satirical about Pentecostalism all my life. So what. They don’t know. Many times they haven’t a clue what they are talking about. They certainly haven’t traveled my path in my shoes. They certainly weren’t there the many times God has met me and my need rather dramatically and miraculously. They weren’t there the many times God confirmed a lot of very interesting and startling things in my life. So what.

I’m not going to convince them. And I don’t need to take things overly personal.

A lot of RC folks have responded to a lot of my dramatic fierce statements as hatred, etc. etc. etc. But I haven’t felt a microgram’s worth of such feelings toward ANYONE hereon—at all.

Much of my life is fiercely intense—just the way I’m made. And, I have a very intense pointed fierce communications style—particuarly about things I care deeply about—spiritual things.

But I’m that way teaching my classes—very in-students’-faces—literally—horseshoe seating . . . walking around a lot —off the wall demonstrations and surprises—role playing—satire etc.

But the students know I’m serious, play for keeps AND PARTICULARLY THAT I LOVE EACH ONE OF THEM. Not sure how all that successfully gets across but it does.

Doesn’t so easily get across in this text medium. But surprising numbers of even lurkers have noted that it’s there.

So, I end up coming back to the conclusion that too many RC’s have too thin a skin to detach themselves from the issues and icons and rituals and whatever ENOUGH to take someone else’s intense whatevers at it with a grain of salt or whatever.

I find MarkBsnr’s hostile stuff toward Prottys ABOUT AS INSULTING, DERISIVE, . . . . whatever . . . that he and his buddy find my words about some RC stuff.

It’s just differently put . . . but about as intense and IF I HAD A CHIP ON MY SHOULDER OR THIN SKIN—I’D HAVE JUST AS MUCH CAUSE to get and stay all irate, indignent etc.

But it’s not worth it. It’s not where my heart is at. Jesus is a Big Guy. He can take care of His priorities far better than I can.

I can speak out as well as I feebly can when I feel so moved. But it’s all just noise. Some of it is hopefully noise of some use to some lurkers and maybe some others occasionally. But that’ God’s affair.

Anyway—I hope you get some rest. If you don’t take care of yourself, you can’t well take care of anyone else!

I don’t know what to do with “bigots” and “fanatics” besides conclude that they evidently believe some things more rigidly and more intensely than I do.

Blessings,


121 posted on 02/19/2008 7:54:03 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Oliver Optic

I’m not going to give you the Catechism answer, just something to think about. The saints are with God! It is ONLY through CHRIST that they are in Heaven.

Let’s take a purely secular analogy. Say you work at a huge conglomerate and you are at the bottom of the rung, making minimum wage, you have no power or prestige, you are just a little nobody. Then, one day the CEO sees you and just knows that you are someone so he takes you under his wing to show you the ropes. Everyone knows that you’re in the office next to the big boss and you are communicating about everything, when you speak everyone listens because they know that, ultimately your words are coming straight from the top. People can ask you for favors because they know you and the boss are tight because the boss chose you to be where you are.

The saints are in Heaven. They are no longer bound by human frailties, they are in the heavenly realm that human minds can’t even comprehend. They SEE God! They have power THROUGH GOD! NONE of the saints are in Heaven by their own power but by the grace of God. There is no power besides God but we know that God uses people on earth to further His kingdom, why would he not use the saints in heaven? Emmanuel, God is with us and NOTHING separates us, nothing, God is with us, the saints are with God and therefore with us also.


122 posted on 02/19/2008 7:54:21 PM PST by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: alpha-8-25-02
Thank you for the Ping, my Brother!

'Even So then at this Present Time Also there is a Remnant According to the Election of Grace.
And if by Grace, then is it No More of Works; Otherwise Grace is No More Grace.
But if it be of Works, then is it No More Grace: Otherwise Work is No More Work.' (Rom.11:5,6)

123 posted on 02/19/2008 7:55:16 PM PST by Kitty Mittens (To God Be All Excellent Praise!!)
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To: Campion

OMG, I know just what you mean. I had already felt it with some Fundamentalist friends that I had but they don’t have the anonymity of the internet to let it all hang out.


124 posted on 02/19/2008 8:00:25 PM PST by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: Quix

Hey Quix,

did you ever read Eusibius and his History of the Church?

Do yourself a favor and read what he so painstakingly documented on Christian life in the first and second centuries. It is a real eyeopener.

Regards
Lurking


125 posted on 02/19/2008 8:05:01 PM PST by LurkingSince'98 (Catholics=John 6:53-58 Everyone else=John 6:60-66)
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To: papertyger
Would it change anyting about your Confession if I told you of the man I know who has been in a traveling Gospel singing troupe for thirty years that asked me if the book of Romans was in the Old or New Testament?

I don't know what "confession" you're talking about, so I don't know how to answer that questiion.

What about the public school teacher that tried to publicly humiliate my wife as a child because she knew "Son of God" means "God incarnate" and he, as a lifelong Baptist, didn't?

What about him? Are you expecting me to defend his public humiliation of your wife or something? Or is that supposed to somehow "prove" that the Bible has errors?

Of course these things aren't going to change the good things you know, just as I will keep the good things I know.

Maybe not, but it wouldn't hurt the two or three Catholic FReepers who do believe in total inerrancy to speak out once in a while instead of allowing the errantists and evolutionists to be the public face of the Catholic Church on FR.

Of what value is holding a doctrine of total biblical inerrancy when it manifests itself as our functionally illiterate brother boldly standing up to proclaim Acts 7:54 of the King James Bible *clearly* proves the Sanhedrin where so mad at Steven they actually bit him!

Anyone functionally illiterate would be unable to read the verse you cite (or any other verse), so I don't understand your point there. But one thing I do believe is that the Catholics of past ages who didn't read the Bible much (note that I didn't say there were "forbidden" to read the Bible; I said they "didn't read it much") were better off for acknowledging that G-d does not lie than the modern Catholic who reads the Bible every day--along with higher critical commentaries written by the likes of Raymond Brown--so that however well he knows the contents he ascribes them to ancient Babylonian mythology adapted much later and then dishonestly attributed to Moses (or Daniel, or whoever). It is one of the greatest tragedies of the Catholic "Biblical movement" that Biblical literacy has been indelibly polluted with "higher criticism." Yes, Catholics who read the Bible but believe it's a forgery are in much worse shape than people who never picked it up but who believed it was inerrant. I suppose you want to argue with me?

Would to God we all took Paul's advice about meat sacrificed to idols as a general instead of a specific.

And now I have no idea what you're talking about.

126 posted on 02/19/2008 8:08:11 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (HaShem, HaShem, Qel Rachum veChanun; 'erekh 'appayim verav-chesed ve'emet!)
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To: papertyger
What about the public school teacher that tried to publicly humiliate my wife as a child because she knew "Son of God" means "God incarnate" and he, as a lifelong Baptist, didn't?

What about him? I suspect the lifelong Baptist knew that Jesus didn't become incarnate to take multiple wives and father multiple children...

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

- Genesis 6:1-4


127 posted on 02/19/2008 8:17:34 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time." - Amos 5:13)
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To: Alex Murphy

Alex,

I think this is the first time I can remember, when the “Neverending Story” between Calvinists and Catholics has not occupied the majority of the recent posts on the Religion Forum. It appears the Evangelical Protestants v. Mormons is now the leading battle.

We’ve been supplanted, I’ll admit, I am ambivalent, lol.

God Bless


128 posted on 02/19/2008 8:24:44 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Campion
If you want to destroy conservatism as an effective political force, drive wedges in it. Drive wedges between Mormon conservatives and everyone else, and tell the Mormons, "Keep out -- you're not wanted here". Drive wedges between Catholic conservatives and everyone else, and tell the Catholics, "Keep out -- you're not wanted here". Drive as many other wedges as you can think of to drive.

I notice that you place all the burden on Fundamentalist Protestants. Have you ever considered that it is possible for a Catholic or a mormon to be a bigot? Or is this that "poor little minority vs. the masses of illiterate hayseeds" thing again?

It's not as if Fundamentalism owns conservatism. I'd say if conservatism had rulers those rulers would be Catholic rather than Fundamentalist--whether considering William F. Buckley Jr. or the place the Catholic Church holds in the hearts of the "palaeo" worshipers of "western civilization." In fact, the traditional Catholic hostility to Jews and Israel was very dominant in conservatism for a long, long time, despite the fact that pro-Israel Fundamentalists outnumber Catholics in the United States.

I don't suppose the fact that so many Catholics think that people who insist on total Biblical inerrancy are brain-damaged or retarded bothers you in the least? But I forget, I'm addressing the inventor of "Billy Bob's Glory Barn." I forget myself! Blacks can't be racists, and Catholics can't be bigots (except in Spain)!

129 posted on 02/19/2008 8:25:11 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (HaShem, HaShem, Qel Rachum veChanun; 'erekh 'appayim verav-chesed ve'emet!)
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To: Alex Murphy
What about him? I suspect the lifelong Baptist knew that Jesus didn't become incarnate to take multiple wives and father multiple children...

No, the context was He insisting that my wife's assertions about the Incarnation were wrong.

I did neglect to mention the dispute was in the context of the identity of Christ. Thanks for pointing out my oversight.

130 posted on 02/19/2008 8:29:50 PM PST by papertyger (changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; papertyger
Here's one example of the rejection of total Biblical inerrancy, papertyger. Answer me this, ZC: Was Jesus a door? Literally a piece of wood with a doorknob on it?
131 posted on 02/19/2008 8:41:34 PM PST by cammie
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Where are you getting this idea that most Catholic Freepers believe in evolution?

I’m puzzled.


132 posted on 02/19/2008 8:48:28 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

**. In fact, I was Catholic for six years.**

Didn’t know this about you. You can always come home.


133 posted on 02/19/2008 8:51:32 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: LurkingSince'98

Only a few paragraphs, I think.

Maybe a few pages.

Do you have a handy link.

What would you hope I’d get from such reading?


134 posted on 02/19/2008 8:53:23 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I don't know what "confession" you're talking about, so I don't know how to answer that questiion.

Your "denomination" or "tradition."

What about him? Are you expecting me to defend his public humiliation of your wife or something? Or is that supposed to somehow "prove" that the Bible has errors?

It is intended to demonstrate theological ignorance is not solely a Catholic fault.

Maybe not, but it wouldn't hurt the two or three Catholic FReepers who do believe in total inerrancy to speak out once in a while instead of allowing the errantists and evolutionists to be the public face of the Catholic Church on FR

You are assuming the Bible is as foundational to Catholics as it is to you: that would be a mistake.

Anyone functionally illiterate would be unable to read the verse you cite...

"Functional illiterate" is not the same as "illiterate." The latter can't read at all, the former can read the words, but doesn't know what they mean.

And now I have no idea what you're talking about.

Paul writes in Corinthians about some brothers being critical of others either because their faith is not as strong, or stronger than our own. This is typified by the controversy over "meat sacrificed to idols." A good modern analogy would be something like the use of alcohol.

135 posted on 02/19/2008 8:55:05 PM PST by papertyger (changing words quickly metastasizes into changing facts -- Ann Coulter)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I notice that you place all the burden on Fundamentalist Protestants. Have you ever considered that it is possible for a Catholic or a mormon to be a bigot?

Sure, it's possible, but that's not relevant to my point.

Ever heard of the "religious right"? Who do you think wags the tail of that particular dog? It isn't Catholics. Perhaps it should be, but in the real world of real American politics in the late 20th and early 21st Century, it isn't.

I'd say if conservatism had rulers those rulers would be Catholic rather than Fundamentalist

Buckley is hardly a "ruler" of conservatism, unless you conceive of conservatism as some sort of dry intellectual exercise conducted in the pages of a magazine. I don't. Who else? Buchanan? A fringe goofball any more. Sobran? Ditto. Brownback? Good guy, but how far did he get? Nowhere. Who else? Anyone? Buehler?

Know how many Catholic Presidential or Vice-Presidential candidates the Republican party has ever nominated? Oh yeah, that would be *zero*, right?

So much for "ruling" conservatism.

In fact, the traditional Catholic hostility to Jews and Israel was very dominant in conservatism for a long, long time

Yeah, it was accompanied by the traditional country-club Republican hostility to Catholics, or didn't you notice that?!?!.

Sometimes I wonder what world you live in, ZC.

But I forget, I'm addressing the inventor of "Billy Bob's Glory Barn."

Speaking of which: Wrong, buddy. My only connection with that was that I found someone else's joke amusing. I guess I've now morphed in your mind into the inventor of same. Whatever.

136 posted on 02/19/2008 8:56:46 PM PST by Campion
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To: Zionist Conspirator; Campion
I notice that you place all the burden on Fundamentalist Protestants. Have you ever considered that it is possible for a Catholic or a mormon to be a bigot?

Of course it is possible for both to be true. HOWEVER, most Catholics and Mormons on this site came here with the same opinion I did - that we are all of a piece, and that our similarities far outweigh our differences. I still feel that way about Mormons and the mainstream Protestants on this site, but I no longer believe that about Fundamentalists; I feel that I have been rudely awakened as to the truth of the Fundamentalist movement. The simple fact is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a Catholic thread around here without some virulently anti-Catholic Fundamentalist barging in with a "whore of Babylon" story or other. I assume the same is universally true on Mormon-related threads. You will not find such to be true on the Fundamentalist threads. The fight-picking around here is nearly always done by Fundamentalist Protestants on threads dealing with Catholicism. Perhaps if you steered clear of Catholic threads and talk amongst your own we wouldn't have these issues? Like Campion, I out-of-hand rejected voting for Mike Huckabee for exactly the samer reasons he stated.

137 posted on 02/19/2008 9:07:29 PM PST by cammie
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To: Quix
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear Quix!

The only conclusion I can come to is . . . ONGOINGLY SEEKING GOD FIRST AND FOREMOST . . . AND ONGOINGLY DOING HIS WILL FIRST AND FOREMOST . . . ARE GREATLY HIGHER PRIORITIES TO GOD than the brand name on the RELIGIOUS CLUB DOOR.

Indeed, there is only one Great Commandment.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. – Matthew 22:37-38

To God be the glory!

138 posted on 02/19/2008 9:15:20 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Zionist Conspirator
For what it's worth, cammie, I once believed that Catholics and Fundamentalists were on the same page too. In fact, I was Catholic for six years. But I somehow got the notion that Catholics saw Fundamentalists as "useful idiots" to achieve certain political goals while regarding them as idiots (as you obviously do).

I don't regard Fundamentalists as idiots. Prior to my joining FR, I regarded you as my fellow Christians. Now I regard you as dangerous to the ideals of American democracy. And as I said, I hope that view is only formed by the few uninformed Fundamentalists who troll every Catholic thread looking for trouble, but you have all formed that view in me. So be it.

139 posted on 02/19/2008 9:19:49 PM PST by cammie
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To: WileyPink

What about the letters to the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation? How do you view those?


140 posted on 02/19/2008 9:19:49 PM PST by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Thanks for your encouragements, Dear Sister in Christ.


141 posted on 02/19/2008 9:21:34 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Actually,

the way “Christians” rant and rave about petty chaff

DISTINCTIVES of their RELIGIOUS CLUB

I suspect God is thoroughly disgusted with CLUB BRAND names on church doors and church yards.

His Son didn’t die for ego-driven pettiness.

Some differences are substantial and deserve their distinctive treatments . . .

But so many are just noise, chaff . . . originated in political ego driven conflicts and perpetuated in much the same or a similar spirit, imho.

To think God has any respect for such over his 2 HIGH PRIORITY COMMANDMENTS . . . is, imho, delusional.


142 posted on 02/19/2008 9:24:23 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix
Indeed, if we don't get the Great Commandment right - nothing else will matter, as the Church of Ephesus discovered:

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. – Revelation 2:1-5

To God be the glory!

143 posted on 02/19/2008 9:32:13 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

INDEED. AMEN! AMEN!


144 posted on 02/19/2008 9:34:27 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Oliver Optic

My explanation is that they are given a special grace by Christ to do so.


145 posted on 02/19/2008 10:12:46 PM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: Quix

Excellent points :-).


146 posted on 02/20/2008 4:13:42 AM PST by Tax-chick (If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't shoot! It might be a lemur!)
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To: Tax-chick

Thanks for your kind words. I hope you got some good rest!

Have a blessed Wed.


147 posted on 02/20/2008 4:27:43 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; cammie; Campion; Dr. Eckleburg
I notice that you place all the burden on Fundamentalist Protestants. Have you ever considered that it is possible for a Catholic or a mormon to be a bigot? Or is this that "poor little minority vs. the masses of illiterate hayseeds" thing again?

Good Post and Well Said --

148 posted on 02/20/2008 4:55:57 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Quix
I hope you got some good rest!

Not as much as I should have. I dreamed about some people I haven't seen in over 15 years, and spent some time praying for them.

I appreciate what you said about being passionate and dramatic, and how that's not the same as being angry or hostile. It can be so easy to misunderstand, particularly in this text-only medium.

I hope you have a terrific day!

149 posted on 02/20/2008 4:58:53 AM PST by Tax-chick (If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't shoot! It might be a lemur!)
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To: streetpreacher

GOOD MORNING SAINT,

THANKYOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS,MY LOCAL MINISTRY SCHEDULE DOES NOT ALLOW FOR DISCUSSION ON THREADS AND I AM OFTEN AT REST EARLY AND RISE EARLY SINCE MY PROFITABLE STUDY TIME IS MORNING BEFORE THE DAILY MEETING AND TEACHING SCHEDULE.

“I see now that Toplady was a contemporary of Wesley, so that might explain the passion. After all, Charles Wesley at the time was spouting “Calvin was the first born son of the devil”. I’m sure they all have time to reflect on this now in God’s presence where no doubt Wesley is being schooled by Whitfield, Calvin, Augustine and the Apostle Paul. ;-)”

SMILES HERE ALSO.

5 SOLAS!


150 posted on 02/20/2008 5:03:41 AM PST by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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