All Roads Lead To Rome (A Southern Baptist's Journey into the Catholic Church)

Confiteordeo ^ | John David Young

[NYer]

I’m just looking for an explanation as to how, if the Eucharist is just a small wafer and not the Body of Christ

There's the problem. It is the Body of Christ.

[wmfights]

Why don't you take a look, I think you will find that the Gospel presented here is identical to what you are familiar with.

Instead of providing a link to the Bible your church uses you could have said I don't know. If your church doesn't teach you THE GOSPEL how can you preach it to the world?

[wagglebee]

Of cours it is, what else could it possibly be. And as I’ve pointed out, it is a very small minority of Christians (just over a quarter) who resist this belief and in so doing, deny themselves full Communion with Him.

[wagglebee]

If your church doesn't teach you THE GOSPEL how can you preach it to the world?

The Church has been teaching the same Gospel for nearly two thousand years. If this differs from what some began teaching in the early Sixteenth Century, this IS NOT the Church's problem.

[wmfights]

The Church has been teaching the same Gospel for nearly two thousand years.

Then why is it you seem to have so much trouble saying what THE GOSPEL is?

[wagglebee]

I’m uncertain what exactly you are looking for; however, if you are asking for a “thumbnail version” I would say that the Gospel is very well expressed in the Apostle’s Creed.

[wmfights]

I’m uncertain what exactly you are looking for;...

I realize it. It is a great example of the differences that exist between Born Again Christians and Roman Catholics.

if you are asking for a “thumbnail version” I would say that the Gospel is very well expressed in the Apostle’s Creed.

The first half of the Apostle's Creed is a good example. It really is illustrative how different we really are that it is so hard for you to explain what The Gospel (Good News) is. You will find it throughout the NT.

Mark 16:15-16; ICor.15:1-4; ICor.1:23

[Rutles4Ever]

The first half of the Apostle's Creed is a good example. It really is illustrative how different we really are that it is so hard for you to explain what The Gospel (Good News) is. You will find it throughout the NT.

What Gospel verses would Saint Paul have responded with?

Oh, wait--

[RooRoobird20]

This is what we Catholics believe, and this is what we recite in EVERY MASS. It’s the best synopsis of the Gospel, period:

“We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

[wagglebee]

I realize it. It is a great example of the differences that exist between Born Again Christians and Roman Catholics.

The first half of the Apostle's Creed is a good example. It really is illustrative how different we really are that it is so hard for you to explain what The Gospel (Good News) is. You will find it throughout the NT.

I gave you a link to the Bible, you would not accept that. I then said that the Apostle's Creed is a thumbnail of the Gospel. Now you say that it is somewhat acceptable but then refer me to the New Testament.

I really fail to see what your circular reasoning (or lack thereof) is accomplishing. You know full well that the Church preaches the Gospel, you may disagree with some of the Church's interpretations of the Gospel, but you still know that it is the same Gospel.

[Mad Dawg]

I piped but you would not dance, I wept but you would not mourn.

Some start out with the unshakable conviction that we are wrong, and find evidence of our wrongness everywhere. Concomitance becomes evidence of causation, coincidence becomes consequence. Not much we can do.

'You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.'
- Talullah Bankhead, attrib.
(upon being asked to use the word "horticulture" in a sentence.)

[Cronos]

I doubt you’ve ever read anything besides anti-Christian propaganda.

[Cronos]

Are you denying that the Catholic Church preaches the Gospel?It might "preach" it at times, but "believing" it is another matter.

So, you ever heard of "Mass"? We have the Gospel preached daily, not some song-and-dance acts on television who has a couple of mansions and fake hair

Furthermore, The Church consists of the 1 billion folks in the Catholic Church and the half a billion Orthodox and Oriental Churchs -- you have somehow magically read the minds of all of these and figure out they don't believe?

[Cronos]

Wide is the path that leads to Rome and there are many who find it.

Actually the road is narrow. The road leading the other way is broad and you have a lot of song-and-dance acts and snake-dancers and Waco wannabees -- hello Moonies!

[Cronos]

"They worship the Pope, Mary, and the Saints."

Hilarious!!! I'm an RC and I never knew that!

[wagglebee]

Fundamentalism as we know it is almost entirely an American religious system and it cannot be overlooked that it takes hold far more in areas with smaller Catholic populations. I think what many have done is to so insulate themselves that they aren't aware how far removed from Christianity their beliefs actually are.

I was arguing yesterday with some on a thread about Transubstantiation and I pointed out that, to varying degrees, the Real Presence is accepted by not only Catholics and Orthodox, but also by Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists. What many fundamentalists do not accept is that when they attack Catholicism's beliefs, they are often attacking the beliefs of nearly three-quarters of the world's Christians including about a third of Protestants. It is also worth noting that when the fundamentalists speak of the Gospel, they rarely mean the Gospel, but rather St. Paul's Epistles (which are oftentimes taken out of context as the result of the "you too can be a theologian, just ask the Holy Spirit and He will guide you" method).

They love to talk about "sola scriptura" but what they refuse to acknowledge is that prior to the invention of the printing press in the 15th Century this was IMPOSSIBLE, there simply weren't enough Bibles to go around and because there weren't that many books, many people couldn't read in the first place. The cruelest thing that I can imagine would be for the Son of God to come to Earth and give us a plan for our Salvation which was dependent upon technology that He knew wouldn't be available for fourteen hundred years.

[Cronos]

They love to talk about "sola scriptura" but what they refuse to acknowledge is that prior to the invention of the printing press in the 15th Century this was IMPOSSIBLE, there simply weren't enough Bibles to go around and because there weren't that many books, many people couldn't read in the first place

They tend to forget about the mass-illiteracy bit and go about saying that The Church burnt Bibles. Strange theories...

[wagglebee]

What they fail to point out is that the Church burned a handful (because that’s all there were) of heretical translations. Aside from the illiteracy rate, was the cost of a hand-scribed Bible. The average common person who had a comfortable lifestyle (generally a skilled craftsman and member of a guild), did not earn enough money in a lifetime to purchase a Bible.

[HarleyD]

I pinged you hither, Harley, because a week or so go you expressed astonishment at my distinguishing between the language of theology and the language of piety. But here we have almost the very example I gave! My example was, "Prayer works," and here we have "try faith," and "It [faith] works."

You're absolutely correct M-D. I have not followed the conversation and I'm not sure what this ItsOurTimeNow stated. Be that as it may, saving faith is a gift of God.

Here is a wonderful definition of saving faith from the Reformed Methodists (if there are any left now).

Saving faith is a gracious instinct or principle, wrought in the heart by the Spirit of God (a); whereby the soul is brought to believe the testimony of God in his Word concerning all that he has spoken (b); to believe the commandments so as to obey, the threatenings so as to tremble, the promises so as to accept and embrace them (c), and especially to believe that we are utterly sinful, lost, and undone, without the Lord Jesus, and that through his propitiation and righteousness alone we are saved (d); inasmuch as it is by this faith we receive and rest upon Christ alone for our salvation (e). This is the faith of God's elect; it is this faith that God gives, that saves, justifies, works by love, purifies the heart, and overcomes the world. This faith is unfeigned, abides, looks unto the Lord, flees for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before it, takes hold of the Lord's strength, trusts him, puts on the Lord Jesus, feeds upon him, and lives to him (f). This faith differs in degree in different Christians, and in the same Christian at different times (g). But the least degree of it differs in kind from the faith of hypocrites, and accompanies salvation (h). This faith is never without good works, which spring from it as its necessary and natural fruits (i).

(a) Eph. 1:19; 2:8.
(b) 2 Thess. 2:13; Acts 24:14; I John 5:10.
(c) Gen. 6:22; 12:1-4; Isa. 66:2; Heb. 11:7-8. 13.
(d) Rom. 1:16-17, 3:25; 5:19; 7:9; Acts 2:37; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; Phil. 3:9.
(e) John 1:12, 3:14-15, 6:47; Acts 4:12 see (d); Eph. 3:17; I Tim. 1:15; Rom. 8:1; Phil. 3:9 see (d).
(f) Titus 1:1; Eph. 2:8 see (a); Heb. 10:39; Rom. 3:28; 4:13; 5:1; 13:14; Gal. 3:24; 5:6; Acts 15:9; 1 Tim. 1:5;1 r. 13 :13; Luke 22:32; 2 Thess. 1:3: Isa. 27:5: 28:16; 45:22; M att. 9:22; Psa. 40:4; John 6:54.
(g) Heb. 5:12-14; Rom. 4:19-20; Rom. 14:1: Matt. 6:30; Matt. 8:10: 15:28.
(h) Eph. 6:16; 1 John 5:4-5.
(i) Eph. 2:10: James 2:17-26; Heb. 11:1-39; Titus 2:14.

Calvinist Welsh Methodists

[NYer]

What they fail to point out is that the Church burned a handful (because that’s all there were) of heretical translations.

They have also put the cart before the horse forgetting that the Church came before the Bible.

Good to see you in the forum, Cronos! I have a wonderful book for both of you to read - one you will cherish for years to come. Pack your spiritual bags and head off to Egypt in the company of a young American RC Benedictine monk. Prepare to meet God!

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