Posted on 02/22/2008 5:31:45 PM PST by DouglasKC
Thanks for your good work and your kind words.
God’s speed to you Bro.
LOL
In connection with being "priests of God and of Christ" [Rev.20:6] is the "man child" of [Rev.12:5]. Until recently I saw the man child as Christ but now believe He was the first man child but also was a type for the future one(s) who are His elect, the "priests of God" that will rule with Him.
I have been delving into the "woman," her "man child," and the "two witnesses"...Who are they, where the "wilderness" is and is it a spiritual or physical wilderness. Also when (if not already) the time will be that they "should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." Add to that...who is the "they" that will feed her?
Have you considered those scriptures before and their meaning?
..................Ping-Pong
I very much agree with what you are saying. My question is do you believe the "tribes" today are still physical only, or spiritual only.... or both?
Some I speak with think that it is spiritual only since the Advent of Christ. My personal understanding is that there remains a blood lineage tribal connection but any Gentile becomes part of that family through belief in Christ.
What is your understanding?
....Ping-Pong
Acts 3
18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Messiah would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent (Tshuvah) therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Yeshua Messiah, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration (Tikkunim)of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
Hi Douglas...I know there are different views on the return of Christ. All this pre-, post-, anil-, is too confusing for me. I simply believe that Christ will return, and that's that. The judgment. It makes everthing rather tidy in my mind.
I don't see the purpose of having a "time period when the whole earth can see the truth of Christ". Romans tells us that ever since creation "..the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them". Men know the truth. They just simply don't wish to acknowledge it, with or without Satan.
For example, I would consider this a millennial prophecy: Isa 41:14
I find a number of these prophesies all have been fulfilled in one way or another.
Revelation was written so that God's servants would be informed about future events.
I find that most of "God's servants" who have lead us down this dispensationalist path have a poor understanding of basic scripture. They change their interpretation to suit current events. Not only that, for them to reject the church as the chosen people of Christ is to reject the heart of the Bible. People can make Revelation say just about anything they want.
There’s so much demonic activity on earth now. It’s increasing. We are in the midst of a horrendous spiritual warfare for the soul of our nation and for individual souls who are blinded. Prayer is the only way to break it. M
Thanks, terriergal. Good post!
Well, the child of promise (Isaac) was a genetic son. And Ephraim was to become the fullness of the Gentiles.
any Gentile becomes part of that family through belief in Christ.
Or perhaps that *is* what serves as an identifier of physical descent [of those otherwise lost to history].
Graft a Tzadik onto the front of the word "Javan" (Greece) and you get "Zion", whose sum = Joseph.
06726 Tsiyown {tsee-yone'}
the same (regularly) as 06725; TWOT - 1910; n pr loc
AV - Zion 153, Sion 1; 154
Zion = "parched place"
1) another name for Jerusalem especially in the prophetic books
>>>>
06725 tsiyuwn {tsee-yoon'}
from the same as 06723 in the sense of conspicuousness [compare 05329]; TWOT - 1887a; n m
AV - title 1, waymark 1, sign 1; 3
1) signpost, monument, market
Modern Hebrew v. tziyen (from tziyun, mark): mark, note, distinguish, be characteristic of
Gerund (tziyun): mark(ing), grade*, remark
*as in score, grades (tziyunim) on a report card
Galatians 3:24-29
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
You can get the book at Christian Book Distributors. M
They’re a deception, anything to keep our eyes off of God, lady. How are you feeling these days?
Not quite sure I understand. Who do you mean by...."the first man child"? I have always believed that this is The Messiah being spoken of.
The woman spoken of is "Israel". Wilderness implies many things and has many interpretations. "They should feed her" can just as easily be said....."She will be fed" leaving one to believe it will be God who does the feeding. The Greek does not say "they".....but it is implied that someone does the feeding.
Not quite sure I understand. Who do you mean by...."the first man child"? I have always believed that this is The Messiah being spoken of.
I thought so too but recently it was brought to my attention that it can't be. They are correct.
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
This represents the Zodiac with the twelve constellations as well as Israel with the twelve tribes that brought forth the Messiah.
2.And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3.And there appeared another wonder in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4.And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The woman is Mary delivering Christ and Herod wanted to kill Him. She delivered the first man child but is there another?
5.And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.
Christ will rule with a "rod of iron" but so shall those that are with Him.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:
27.And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.
28.And I will give him the morning star.
There are other scriptures too but Christ giving the "rod of iron" to "him" as well as "authority over the nations" and the "morning star" demonstrate that there is more than one man child. He is The Man Child but His elect are those that will rule with Him [Rev.20:6]
This has been an interesting study, one I first balked at but finally realized this man child of the woman in [Rev.12:5] was just another name for the elect of [20:6]
The woman spoken of is "Israel". Wilderness implies many things and has many interpretations. "They should feed her" can just as easily be said....."She will be fed" leaving one to believe it will be God who does the feeding. The Greek does not say "they".....but it is implied that someone does the feeding.
God feeds but is it through the Holy Spirit, the two witnesses or through the elect? And....where is the wilderness? An actual place she is taken to or is this us where we are now? Are we in the midst of the 3 1/2 years of being fed in the wilderness?
I've had my head wrapped around this and associated teachings all day. I'm off to watch American Idol and totally waste the next 1 1/2 hours. Sometimes that is a good thing to do.
.......Ping-Pong
No further questions.
Where do I think the Israelites are today?
A ludicrous question.
The Bible says clearly, they will be regathered in the land God gave them. Israel!
And look... there they are.
Are there “some” who aren’t? Sure, always happens that way. Not all Africans are in Africa. Not all Americans are in America. Big whooop. You can’t invent doctrine when the Bible is explicit.
This theory of who the Jews are and where the Jews are was MADE UP because people at the time couldn’t imagine any possible chain of events which would CAUSE the Jews to go back to Palestine, occupy the land physically and then remake their nation.
DOH!
But they did.
Now any other talk.
ANY, whatsoever... about “Who is X % Jewish or descended from whom.. is not about GOD’S MIRACLE of restoring His people, but is INSTEAD a debate about genes, and linage... which IS RACE!
Ya follow that?
It is IMPOSSIBLE to have any belief about LOST TRIBES without considering RACE as the factor.
Thus the entire debate is racIST.
Just on the face of it. DEFACTO!
So there are TWO and ONLY two choices here:
#1 God is clear and exact and reveals Himself plainly and He means what He says and He just DOES it. Simple.
or
#2 God is cryptic, unclear, sneaky and man must try and game the system with science and genetics and all sorts of extra biblical thinking to come up with ways to make God’s prophesy happen.
Now... one of those is MY GOD... the other must be YOURS.
The god of Mystery is the god of Babylon. My God is not that way. My God is the revealer of mystery and speaks in simple father-daughter language and doesn’t have to resort to legal trickery to make a miracle happen.
They just happen in plain sight and are completely obvious for all.
Why? Cause He is UNWILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance and be saved.
Preach any other gospel... especially when it comes to who the Jews are and what his works are for them after the age of the gentiles... and yer WAY WAY WAY PAST CULTISM and boldly pushing EVIL.
Have I made my point yet?
The difference between this Britain and America being the Lost Jews and out right Anti-Semitic Jew Hate is the difference between HOW MUCH Rat Poison is in your breakfast cereal.
This is what we are about to see. Is it really Ludicrous or is your prejudice showing?
The Bible says clearly, they will be regathered in the land God gave them. Israel! And look... there they are.
This is what scripture says: [Ezekiel 37:19] Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. The first 18 Chapters speak of this as happening during a general resurrection.....so we know it is yet in the future.
Most of the folks who reside in Israel today are descendants of three tribes.....Judah, Benjamin and Levi. You'll find that scripture also confirms this descendency in [1 Kings 12:23]. By the time of the Assyrian deportation of Israel [II Kings 17:18] Benjamin was also considered part of Judah....the Southern Kingdom. In addition [II Chronicles 11:13-17] tells us that all the Levites left Israel and came to Judah when they were rejected as priests by Jereboam. Along with them came other Israelites from all the other tribes but the preponderant majority of these Israelites remained in the north and were exiled to Assyria in 721 B.C. [II Kings 17:22-23]. If you read the scripture you'll see that they are still there.... and this scripture was written after the return from Babylon by the Nation of Judah (Southern Kingdom) more than 200 years later. There are no subsequent scriptures that tell of the return of Israel (Northern Kingdom) from exile.
We can see that two specific nations were formed from one. This was done because of the sins of Solomon....David's son [I Kings 11:11-13]. The Northern Kingdom kept the name Israel and the Southern Kingdom used the name Judah.....as that was the name of the primary tribe. From this point onward when the Bible speaks of Jews it is referring to descendants of the three tribes who made up the Southern Kingdom.....Judah, Benjamin and Levi. In fact, the first place in scripture you'll see the word Jew in use is in {II Kings 16:6] At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day. The fifth verse will tell you that the Jews were at war against Israel. This in itself tells us now that when we see the Jews in prophecy we should not necessarily assume the prophecy is about Israel.....and vice versa.
Now....I'm going to stop at this point as I have noticed what I call "Chiponshoulderitis" on your part....and consequently, I'm not sure if you are really interested in learning these things.....or not. If you would like to learn these Biblical truths then please....by all means, let me know, I will be delighted to continue.
I will leave you one thought as I have noticed what I think is a basic misunderstanding on your part. All Jews are Israelites.....not all Israelites are Jews. When folks come to that understanding many scriptures begin to make more sense.
Hoping I will hear back from you soon...........
Many Restoration of Israel Passages Refer to the Future Messianic Age. However the Restoration of Twelve Tribes of Israel Literally Took Place in the Golden Age of the Silent Years.
Zechariah, who lived when the nation of Israel, the ten northern tribes, had long ago been lost as a political unit, speaks of the renewal of both Judah and Israel. He speaks of the restoration of the nation as including Israel and uses the synonyms of Joseph and Ephraim to plainly signify he means the ten tribes.
Then God shows Ezekiel that there is a marvelous restoration to look forward to. This nation will rise again and all the tribes, all twelve, will be restored to their land.
It is this portion of the prediction that has posed problems, since only Judah was restored and none of the other tribes were restored as a body politic. To solve this problem many flights into fanciful “last days” or “end times” theories have been proposed. Actually, the solution to the literal restoration of all twelve of the tribes is in verse 19 and there is no need to resort to the fantastic. Except that God’s foreknowledge of future historical events is fantastic! We will look at verse 19 in three different versions.
(Eze. 37:19) I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand. KJV
(Eze. 37:19) I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them with it, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand. ASV
(Eze. 37:19) I am going to take the stick of Joseph - which is in Ephraim’s hand - and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand. NIV
The NIV, in this case, is much to be preferred because it makes clear the intent of the Hebrew. That is that the stick that represents the ten northern tribes represents the “Kingdom of Israel.” The stick that represents Judah, Benjamin and Levi is to absorb the first stick and Judah will be left alone and contain, as a restored kingdom, all the tribes.
That does not mean that all tribal identity was lost as can be seen in Luke 2:36. Anna, the prophetess, was of the tribe of Asher. But the tribes were never restored to their land areas as separate political units. The prophecy we are looking at says as much and is the solution to the problem posed. It also does away with the concept of “Ten Lost Tribes.”
The Hebrew is not as clear as the NIV rendering but would be so to a Hebrew-speaking person. The idiom says that the stick of Ephraim is to be given TO the stick of Judah and they will become one stick. The subsequent verses show the intent is that Judah will from now on contain all the tribes within itself and there will be only one nation, not two. Furthermore that nation is to be Judah. Judah will have all the tribes as companions and from henceforth all Israelites will be called Jews no matter what tribe they originate in. We will see that Zechariah viewed the restoration of the nation of Judah in his day in just this way.
(Eze. 37:21) Behold, I will take the children of Israel [all twelve tribes] from among the heathen, where they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; (Eze. 37:22) And I will make them one nation [namely Judah] in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
The Septuagint translators lived at the time that this fulfillment was a reality (285 B.C.E.). Judah was restored as a nation, the Shekinah presence was long ago restored to the Temple and nation, and all tribes dwelt together under the restored tribe of Judah which had returned from Babylonian captivity in 536 B.C.E. Ephraim and his companions were present but not as a body politic. The ten tribes of Israel ultimately becoming a part of the restored nation of Judah is the subject of chapter 10.
The Septuagint translators felt the passage in Eze. 37:19 referred to Judah being the one nation containing all the tribes. They added the word “Jouda” to the text to make their interpretive translation plain. The Hebrew text of the last part of verse 19 reads, “and they shall be made one stick, and they shall be one in my hand.” The LORD is speaking. In the Septuagint this phrase reads, “and they shall become into one stick in the hand of Judah.”
Because in 285 B.C.E. Judah was restored and did contain the remnant of the tribes, the Septuagint translators may have been influenced by the reality of the fulfillment that was apparent to them, to make the passage plain by substituting “hand of Judah” for “my hand.” However, a reading of the Hebrew text also gives this eventual meaning.
Thus here is the clear prophecy that the literal restoration of all the tribes of Israel would be contained in a single tribe and that tribe would be Judah.
So says Ezekiel here and so indeed did it happen. Consequently, at one stroke, do we dispose of “Anglo-Israel.”
Thanks for playing!
Oh? If that is the case who is Our Saviour referring to when He directs the "Twelve" to seek out and evangelize the "Lost Sheep of The House of Israel" [Matthew 10:5-6]? Others would come later (Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, etc.) who would evangelize the Gentiles and the Jews, but Our Lord was quite specific here......don't you think? I even remember Him saying: [Matthew 15:24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He becomes more specific yet when directing Peter (one of the Twelve) to pursue this command when he states in [John 21:15-17] So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Why is it that we find Peter exactly where the Ten Tribes had been exiled (Babylon).....writing to Israelites (foreknowledge of God) as he had been commanded [1 Peter 1:1-2] if you say that the restoration had already happened by the first century? Even Josephus has this to say about the Ten Tribes:
[Antiquities XI, Chapter V, Paragraph 2] And when these Jews had understood what piety the king had towards God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased; nay, many of them took their effects with them, and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers. Till now, of course.....means first century....and an immense multitude could mean millions! The two tribes subject to the Romans, of course would be Judah and Benjamin [II Chronicles 11:1] which constituted the Nation of Judah. The Levites were also included.....but not named as they held no property and ministered to the other tribes.
I'll have to answer your "post" item by item as there is so much error in what you have been taught.....but that's quite O.K. as it will also be a learning experience for many lurkers. As you can see, the restoration did not occur during the silent years. We'll discuss Anna of [Luke 2:36] in another installment as I have some things to see to...at the moment.
Lost as in Lost their WAY. Not some pseudo secret missing tribes. You are just as LOST as they were... yet we KNOW you are right here posting.
15:24 I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The Lord’s personal mission was to the Jews. Under the first commission his apostles were directed to go only to the Jews (Mt 10:6). It would be impossible to evangelize the Gentiles without setting aside the Jewish customs, the law of Moses, and arousing the bitterest prejudice of the Jews. Hence it was the divine plan that the Son should keep the law blameless during his ministry. It was only when the Jews crucified him that the handwriting of ordinances was nailed to the cross (Col 2:14), the wall of partition (Eph 2:14) between Jews and Gentiles broken down, and all prepared for the Great Commission which bade his disciples go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature (Mr 16:15).
You are word substituting. Lost sheep is applicable to the individual. Lost TRIBES are a whole different case and totally NOT Christian and NOT Gospel.
This DOES NOT exclude the Gentiles.
What were Jesus’ last words in Matthew’s Gospel?
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
He did go to the Lost Sheep first. But since He did go to them and went to them IN Judea, then that would really undo this inane “Jews R us” Satanic Theology.
What you need to be concerned with is Rev 3:9 - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;
Word!
As for Anna: Anna knew her tribal identity was of the tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36). Paul knew he was of the tribe of Benjamin, a “Jew” and an “Israelite” (Romans 11:1). The New Testament speaks of “Israel” 75 times and uses the word “Jew” 174 times.
After the Babylonian captivity, the terms “Jew” and “Israelite” are used interchangeably. Ezra calls the returning remnant “Jews” 8 times and “Israel” 40 times. (Ezra also speaks of “all Israel”: Ezra 2:70; 3:11; 8:35; 10:25, et al.) Nehemiah uses the term “Jew” 11 times and “Israel” 22 times. Nehemiah too speaks of “all Israel” being back in the land (Nehemiah 12:47). The remnant who returned from Babylon is represented as “the nation” (Malachi 1:1, et al.).
Accompanying some of the legends of the so-called “Ten Lost Tribes” are aspersions on the present State of Israel and the people being regathered in the Land. These various theories such as “British Israelism” are by their nature anti-Semitic because they deny the Jewish people their proper place in the plan of God. Let’s remember that Genesis 12:3 has never been repealed!
Israel is being regathered in the land just as God has announced. There is yet to come an event which will awaken them to realize that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob once again has His hand upon them (Ezekiel 38, 39). I believe this event could happen at any moment.
The Throne of David was promised to the Son of Mary (Luke 1:32). I believe His taking possession of it is on the near horizon.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.