Skip to comments.Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for the Catholic Church
Posted on 03/01/2008 5:51:31 AM PST by NYer
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There are those who label “The Church” as an earthly organization (namely, The Catholic CHURCH) - an organization of multitudes of lavish buildings and costly possessions of silver, gold and marble statues). . when in reality, Christ’s Church is US, all true Christians who call upon the name of Christ to be saved. It appears to me that the hierarchy and most members of the Catholic Church consider itself as THE ONLY way to Christ. In scripture, Christ himself said that He was the ONLY way to the Father, so forgive me it I fail to be able to buy that a big old bulky organization of any kind is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and the idea of so many hypocritical priests presuming to go from fondling little altar boys to passing out the sacraments is to me - (and I am entitled to an opinion as is anyone) - sickening and a pollution.
In summary, if not in those precise words. I was brought up Presbyterian, and my mother sometimes suggests that I'm still a Calvinist at heart :-). One of the extremely numerous things that I don't let bother me ...
Fwiw, Southern Baptists get the schnitz from real-live Calvinists for being Arminian. (Or Armenian, if the Calvinists ain't all that edicated.)
They all look alike to me. ;OD
You have to get in the spirit of cultural anthropology!
You are surely not telling me that extreme pressure is and has not been put upon many a young man to fulfill his mama and papa’s dreams of becoming a priest, the height of prestige in the Catholic Church - which means that he HAS TO REMAIN CELIBATE. So, priests are DISALLOWED to marry and it has wreaked havoc on that organization and cost millions of hard earned dollars that ordinary, poor parishioners lovingly placed in the collection plates. I’m sorry, but it is disgusting.
Your post's casual relationship with truth? I agree: disgusting.
Using that reasoning, I was "disallowed" from becoming a Catholic homeschooling mother of eight-children-so-far ... and I'm actually an old maid with catz and Commissioner of Internal Revenue.
Does your denomination recognize free will?
But your stories are not the chapter and verse stories...There's no such thing in the New Testament as a consecrated, sacred church building...That's my point...Your sacred church building has nothing to do with the church of Jesus Christ...
No no no --- we're an organization of multitudes of hypocritical sinners. Remember?
"...and costly possessions of silver, gold and marble statues"
Depends on where you are. We worshipped in a remodeled high school gym. And we don't bow before statues now: we bow before felt banners... :o)
"It appears to me that the hierarchy and most members of the Catholic Church consider itself as THE ONLY way to Christ."
No Catholic can in good conscience believe that only signed-up, card-carrying Catholics will be saved, because that view is specifically forbidden by Catholic doctrine:
Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Go ahead and click. It's even grander when read in context.
"In scripture, Christ himself said that He was the ONLY way to the Father."
Amend to that.
1. There is absolutely nothing “unnatural” regarding celibacy. Please read Matt. 19:11-12, Matt. 19:29, 1 Cor. 7:27, 1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38, for starters. Consecrating oneself to the Church is the true model of Christ’s love for the vocation of marriage between husband and wife.
2. The problem is now proven to be worse in Protestant denominations. You want to see rampant sex scandals and cover-ups?? Go to http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm. The rate of sexual scandal in these unstructured, unaccountable organizations is up to 2 and 3 times worse than that of the peak of the Catholic Church’s problem before they cracked down. On another note, nothing compares to the outrageous sexual misconduct occurring in our public schools.
A most excellent post.
In Matthew, did not Christ himself tell the cured leper to show himself to the priest and present the offering Moses commanded, if he didn’t consider it right for legal observance in a holy place?
You could say the need to be pronounced clean by a priest is because the person couldn’t re-enter society without it;
The law must be obeyed (again, only a priest can declare this);
To provide a witness.
You could also say that Our Lord was showing he followed the law;
So that the priests would not persist in their unbelief;
Or just making it possible the former leper could enter society.
In any case, there are specific offerings in Leviticus to be offered, we assume it was the temple... and not the backyard.
Luke 4:15-20 may need some explaining as well.
By word or letter Iscool.
When have you been to a Catholic Church? To attend Mass?
From my experience it is the Independant Baptist Churches that have the most problems with Catholics. They seem to have competition in who can be the most vehement and uptight!
Bless em all
I'm not surprised - but - how many of them are former priests and religious? Each year, there are hundreds of former Protestant ministers that convert; some even bring in their parishioners.
Yes, I attended a Catholic Mass...
Why not? Knowledge is timeless. You quote scripture that dates back much farther.
Twinkie, if a young woman is under extreme pressure to fulfill her mama and papa's dream of becoming a bride, and this becomes known, she would not be permitted to receive Matrimony until it was determined that she (and her husband-to-be) were truly getting married of their own free will. The same is true of Holy Orders: you simply are not permitted to receive this sacrament if you are under coercion from anybody else.
Moreover, most candidates for the priesthood complete 4 years of seminary (6 years, if they didn't have any pre-seminary advanced education, e.g. at a university) before they are ordained a Deacon, and then sometimes 6-12 months before becoming a priest. During this whole process there are plenty of opportunities to talk things out, and if it comes out that this is mama and papa's choice rather than yours --- or if you're not sure you're called to celibacy --- you don't get ordained.
Moreover, at present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church, and 21 of the 22 ordain, as a norm, married men.
So, what were you saying about "priests are DISALLOWED to marry"? Please.
The New York Times (believe me, no friend of the Catholic Church) did an independent analysis of all the records involving priestly abuse in the U.S. Catholic Church. The NYT study found that 1.8% of the priests had been accused of abuse over the past 50 years.
I'd like to make two points about this figure:
The Catholic Bible begins with the Book of Genesis and ends with the Book of Revelation.
"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One!
There is but one throne in heaven on which sits Jesus Christ. He created the universe and spoke to Abraham. He is the one who directed how worship was to be offered. We are a Trinitarian Church - 3 persons in one God.
Okay, maybe a lack of manners but mostly conceit IMHO, it is like they are saying “Come read my post, it is soooooooo good!” They need to call attention to their posts.
I’m late to the party here...
My former parish hosted Mr Cumbie a couple years ago for a seminar. I didn’t really care for it anyways, but by the end it was all about turning the whole group into pentacostals. All they cared about was speaking in tongues, including polluting the Mass with it. Went over well in the SF Bay area, but this diocese wasn’t exactly the most adherent to tradition (or the liturgy in general) anyways.
Now perhaps I should read the rest of this thread.
Jesus was preaching to the JEWS, UNDER THE LAW as the coming Messiah...
The adopted Gentile church (of which many of us are members of) was still in the future...And had the Jews accepted their Messiah, the Gentile church would never have happened...
Point is, we are not under the law...We do not need to show ourselves to the priest...There are no priests...The veil to the holy place has been ripped wide open...We have access to God without a priest...And it's not a building...It's not an organization...
Luke 4:15-20 may need some explaining as well.
Jesus was an Orthodox, observant, law abiding Jew...He was revealing Himself as the Messiah...He was ready to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 61...
Did you read Isaiah 61??? There is no church as we know it...
What you read in Luke 4:15-20 has exactly zero to do with the Gentile church...
And so does the Protestant bible...At least we have one thing in common...But it's one thing to own a bible, and it's quite another to read it...
And to understand it, you have to divide it...
Up to the the time of Moses, were the people bound by the 10 commandments??? How about after Jesus died on the cross and the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles???
I love that! Funny, but so right on. You remind me of a few other ladies I know, also Catholics in happy, good marriages with large families. These people are a joy to be around, some have handicapped kids, but that doesn’t hardly come into the picture, they are all loving and giving and alive. There is wisdom in what you say about large families.
I’m more like Flannery, ill, alone and almost housebound, too literary and read too much - one must be careful that knowledge or even ‘torment’ does not become a sort of vanity. However, even with such a different perspective, I still feel as you do, that the Church does make me happy.
I’m sorry you’re not well. I know I’m extremely fortunate to have outrageous good health, and a large batch of healthy children. Even in my grandparents’ day (1930’s), I could have expected two or three to have died, already.
Literature is a great gift, but it can get us caught up in ourselves. I often feel that, whatever else might be going wrong with my left, it all fades when I walk into the church. Not only am I right there with the Lord, but if I seem less chirpy than usual, someone will say, “You look tired. Can I help?” or “You seem sad. Let me pray for you.”
My parish really is home - and that’s been true of all the parishes we’ve attended, no matter where we lived. The Church puts everything into perspective.
I looked at your family photos...delightful!
Thank you! We didn’t have a current digital picture of Vlad, my little sweetheart, but that’s what the rest of us look like.
Anoreth’s magenta hair has faded :-). It was a Hallowe’en costume that got out of hand.
The t-shirt that James has in your family photo, should be owned by every boy. My middle great-nephew Daymon has one and it fits him so well!
And you look great!!!!
I have one of James passed out on the couch during that week at the lake, wearing the same t-shirt. It came from Target, I think. It’s a family joke now. “Did you do a Stunt? Poor baby, let me give you kiss. Good Stunt!”
That’s what I look like today, except I’m wearing sweatsuits instead of shorts and a t-shirt. My hair has gone all shaggy and gray again. I’ve got the brown dye sitting on the bathroom counter, but I haven’t got around to using it!
I have to get it colored before we see my parents at Myrtle Beach in May. Mom said that Dad recently thought a picture of him was his father - I don’t want him to think I’m his mother or MY mother :-). I’ll need non-gray hair and sprightly clothes!
Even if it is a two year old story.
I am not against you...I am against your tradition...I will show people that much of your tradition is not biblical every chance I get...The Light of the World gave us the Apostles to teach us the very Word that He also gave us. I will listen to the Apostles and their legitimate successors - not the legion of small and buzzing voices trying so hard to be an authority and yet having none.
No authority, no credibility -- nothing of value. Disputatious and irrelevant.
That’s definitely a point too. Hadn’t thought of it that way. Thanks.
With all due respect, Mrs D., the John Jay Study (see threads here, here, and outside coverage here) - commissioned by the U.S. Catholic Bishops' National Review Board itself - found that the number of accused Catholic priest abusers equaled four percent of the entire Catholic priest population. The John Jay study's findings are more than conclusive - they're exhaustive of the entire US population of Catholic priests. Surely you're not suggesting that the New York Times would be as more reliable source of information than the John Jay Study?
We all share your disgust about the sexual molestation of children. You might want to continue your research here, at a website dedicated to researching child sexual abuse by Protestant ministers. Get back to us on it when you can, OK?
As I've said elsewhere, every study I've been shown of "Protestant" abuse (including the website you've linked to) included volunteers and laypersons. The John Jay Study did not address these groups when they looked at Catholic parishes. If we exclude volunteers and laypersons from the "Protestant" studies (thereby creating a "pastor vs priest" apple-to-apple comparison), we arrive at a roughly 1% abuse rate for all "Protestant" pastors, or (in other words) at least a four times greater likelihood that any given Catholic priest will be a sexual predator, as compared to any given "Protestant" pastor. And that's according to the numbers and studies that Catholics keep telling me about.
Let me throw in one caveat to those comparisons. I found something interesting when I broke down the "Protestant" abuse cases by denomination / affiliation / theological leanings. The more free will / Arminian / synergistic the theology is, and the more independent the association is (as opposed to denominational affiliation), the higher the abuse statistic goes - and conversely, if you just look at the Reformed Protestant denominations, the number of "Protestant" abuse cases statistically drops off the chart by comparison. It's only the average of all "Protestant" pastors that is around 1%. Some independent churches have statistics that are far, far higher than the Catholic average of 4%.
How is my post a casual relationship with truth? I have stated that Catholic priests have been protected by the Catholic hierarchy - and they have been, transferred instead of removed from power in many cases - only to go to the new place and betray the people there.
I understand. People have a lot invested in their sacred cows of “religion” and are not about to demand that the disinfectant of the light of truth shine into the dark, dank corners where their sacred cows have defecated.
That’s good, because I’m not trying to be “right”. It is irrelevant to me whether I am “right” or not. It is enough to me to be faithful, and God is the judge of that.
One thing I am not doing is trying to use data to attempt to shore up rottenness - decay in any organization.
I am from a Huguenot heritage and am well aware of the historical depravity that the Catholic priests have been capable of in the name of the Roman Catholic Church. However, I am NOT trying to quote statistics in an attempt to prove that Protestantism is “right”. Neither is probably “right”, and I certainly didn’t post here to be abused and flamed; but enjoy it by all means.
Those former Catholics who wind up as Protestants:
1. Have removed themselves from the Scripture truth of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist “This is my body..” “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man...”
2. Have removed themselves from the Scripture truth about divorce and remarriage “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder...”
3. Have removed themselves from scripture teaching by advocating abortion and euthanasia “Thou shalt not kill..”
4. Have removed themselves from the Scripture teaching about contraception “Be fruitful and multiply”
5. Have removed themselves from Scripture teaching about unnatural (homo)sexuality (see Paul)
They have found a home among one of the more than 22,000 Christian sects that tolerate whatever the secular world serves up. What next?
If you desire to be faithful to God, than start by being faithful to his word.
For example, Jesus praises “celibacy” when it is done for “the sake of His Kingdom”
So on one hand, Jesus praises celibacy, but you, who call yourself “faithful” calls celibacy as “unnatural”. Jesus of course also praises the vocation of matrimony for those who choose this path.
To be “faithful” is to open your heart to the love of the Father by accepting his word. Maybe you need to truly examine the Word in the following verses - Matt. 19:11-12, Matt. 19:29, 1 Cor. 7:27, 1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38, and reconsider your openness to God’s word.
Lastly, it is quite duplicitous on your behalf to make targeted, biased claims about Catholicism, and then when exposed as being prejudiced, retreat under your claim that you are just being “faithful”. If you cannot speak from a position of fairness, truth and justice, then you are far from being “faithful”.
LOL. I dare say every year more priests and Catholic “religious” are convicted of various sex crimes than in my church (broadly speaking). Doesn’t really mean much, either way. The fact that priesthood numbers are plummeting suggests there aren’t that many to leave in the first place!
I will show you.
You said: You are surely not telling me that extreme pressure is and has not been put upon many a young man to fulfill his mama and papas dreams of becoming a priest, the height of prestige in the Catholic Church - which means that he HAS TO REMAIN CELIBATE. So, priests are DISALLOWED to marry and it has wreaked havoc on that organization and cost millions of hard earned dollars that ordinary, poor parishioners lovingly placed in the collection plates. Im sorry, but it is disgusting.
That is BS.
Wow! You’ve changed your home page. Great photos!
Canned response: “Our defectors are less defective than your defectors.” :-)
It would be more accurate to state the Pope or the Priest teaches what the Real Presence is. You ever tried to teach somebody something and they didnt believe you?
They have experience Him personally. No more.
I would suggest there is more. The "easy believism" of Protestantism can be quite attractive to some Catholics. Your silence regarding my divorce/re-marriage question helps to illustrate my point.
I told you we disagree
Yes, at best we can agree to disagree.
---my point was, despite the original article, this is absolutely not a one-way street
and far more people are leaving the Catholic church than joining it if you exclude Latin Americans/immigrants.
We will gladly give you our CINOs and backfill with the Latin immigrants. Since illegals tend not to register with a local Parish, the immigrants accounted for in the survey are here legally. As for the illegals, Im for sealing the borders and sending them home.
Taking in our CINOs will also help in re-establishing the WASP population. Its been declining since the 70s because of contraception and abortion.
Thanks! Bill helped me; I haven’t learned how to use the digital camera.
Think again. Jesus wasnt married and neither were many of the Apostles.
and disobeying clear scripture always causes problems.
The HIDING of the rampant homosexual problem among Catholic priests by Catholic hierarchy for decades is disgusting.
I am neither CATHOLIC nor PROTESTANT in the eyes of the Lord
Got it. Just you, your bible and the Holy Spirit. Sorta defeats the purpose of Christ establishing a Church and then commanding his disciples to go forth and teach all nations doesnt it?
BTW, you never answered my question, Please tell me what is to be believed.
Which is worse? The rampant tendency among the Protestants to practice musical divorces and remarriages or the hypocritical practice among the Catholic hierarchy to declare marriages of long duration as annulled so the Kennedys and others can legally dump their wives and children in order to remarry their latest mistresses?
Musical divorces and remarriages is worse. It clearly violates Gods word. There have been abuses in the annulment process but that does not invalidate the teaching.
You show up on every Catholic thread bashing everything and anything about Catholicism, Catholics & the Catholic church.?
FYI, genius, we are ALL sinners.
I guess what they say is true, “Catholicism is last ‘safe’ bigotry!”
And you apparently are vying for chairman of the board.
“Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God . .”
Christ = The Word of God
The Holy Spirit in the inner man, provided we have believed Christ and asked our Heavenly Father for the Holy Spirit to guide us.
The written Word . . which is needful for all men.
I did NOT say that NOT BEING MARRIED is abnormal. I said that DISALLOWING (as the Roman Catholic Church does in the case of its priests) marriage forces men, who MAY have made youthful choices for the wrong reasons, to live in a state of abnormality, homosexuality and hypocrisy or else the shame of forsaking the priesthood. REALITY has produced the revolting developments that have cost RCC members (ordinary hard-working people) millions of dollars.
No, you don’t actually “get it”, you can’t really “get it” from the vantage point of any other person until you walk a few steps in their shoes.
Tell you what is to be believed? - The Roman Catholic Church hierarchy and mans’ tradition have already done that.
You’ll have to research that yourself if you still have questions. We all have to do that for ourselves.
The standard Roman Catholic’s answer to any comment on the centuries old trails of rivers of blood and “abuses” is just the standard “oh, yes, there have been abuses - but, oh well, they ALL have done it!”.
When we revert to corrupt communication coming out of our mouths (as in your “BS” comment), we have begun to doubt our own argument. BS clearly means “bullsh!t”, so don’t toy with me.
Simply admitting the possiblity that our sacred cows stink to high heaven isn’t easy, is it? What do you think Jesus would say about a stinking sacred cow - whatever it might be? - Only the Truth can clean up a situation. Hiding behind data and statistics, or the old “well, they ALL do it!” reply won’t clean up anything. Until the lay persons rise up in unison and demand accountability, it won’t happen; and most lay persons are powerless in the face of a hierarchy which they think to be “God’s men”. (This is also true of the “pastor/priest” in the Protestant arena.) Power is so heady. - Just ask Hillary!
It's difficult to see a lie and call it truth, yes.