Skip to comments.Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for the Catholic Church
Posted on 03/01/2008 5:51:31 AM PST by NYer
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‘The scripture I posted shows that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ thru the grace of God...That’s biblical...Your tradition teaches differently...’
Actually that is perfectly in accord with Catholic teaching.
Wow. What an unChristian remark. Shame on you.
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ." -- 2 Corinthians 2:14-17
"Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ." -- 2 Corinthians 2:14-17
But the prophets never abandoned God's chosen Israel despite its pathetic string of apostate kings, its Jezebels and gigolos. And to abandon His Church on account of hypocrites would be like abandoning Jesus on account of Judas.
Paul recommended his converts not to marry, but to remain single just as he was... voluntarily.
Subsequent breakway churches (like the Albigensians) "disallowed" marriage, but this was clearly and forcefully repudiatedd as heresy by the Catholic Church.
Nobody in the Catholic Church forbids marriage, or even has the authority to do so. Those who want to be celibate (as our Lord was, and as Paul was) take such a vow of their own free will. Nobody ever coerces the taking of the Sacrament of Holy Orders; and if a man and his future bride are are both free to wed each other, nobody forbids trhem to do so.
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You’re getting lost in semantics there. Yes, of course we agree with you that the Church is the Body of Christ (which is very different from your other definition of “just people”). But a church, meaning the building wherein Mass is celebrated, is not just a building as your church is, because it’s formally consecrated; it is a sacred space containing the Blessed Sacrament (see scripture, “last supper” - sorry we Catholics don’t bother to memorize chapter and verse, we know the stories well enough).
Your comments remind me of something I read yesterday in a book of Flannery O’Connor’s private letters (some here might appreciate it):
“I am a Catholic. This is a fact...However, I am a Catholic peculiarly possessed of the modern consciousness, that thing Jung describes as unhistorical, solitary, and guilty. To possess this WITHIN the Church is to bear a burden, the necessary burden for the conscious Catholic. It is to feel the contemporary situation at the ultimate level. I think that the Church is the only thing that is going to make the terrible world we are coming to endurable; the only thing that makes the Church endurable is that it is somehow the body of Christ and that on this we are fed. It seems to be a fact that you have to suffer as much from the Church as for it but if you believe in the divinity of Christ, you have to cherish the world at the same time that you struggle to endure it.”
Since you love scripture, try Leviticus and Ezekiel.
I’ve never “gotten” Flannery O’Connor. Maybe I’m not gifted enough to be tormented, or something.
The Catholic Church makes me happy. I’m not upset, I’m not desperately enduring, suffering agonies ... maybe I’m just dull. I love my family - married forever to Der Prinz, eight children so far. I accept the Church’s teaching on marriage and children without reservation. Not without nightmares (what will Mom say?) but without reservation.
And I’m happy with my parish, old Bostonian Democrat priest and all. I’m happy to be serving in the Hispanic ministry, even if some of the congregants are illegal. I could go on, but you get the point.
Maybe one of the blessings of a large family is that it doesn’t leave you the time and energy to get upset over a lot of the things that other people allow to make them unhappy.
Of course, Jean Calvin told us Cumbie was predestined to do this.
There are those who label “The Church” as an earthly organization (namely, The Catholic CHURCH) - an organization of multitudes of lavish buildings and costly possessions of silver, gold and marble statues). . when in reality, Christ’s Church is US, all true Christians who call upon the name of Christ to be saved. It appears to me that the hierarchy and most members of the Catholic Church consider itself as THE ONLY way to Christ. In scripture, Christ himself said that He was the ONLY way to the Father, so forgive me it I fail to be able to buy that a big old bulky organization of any kind is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and the idea of so many hypocritical priests presuming to go from fondling little altar boys to passing out the sacraments is to me - (and I am entitled to an opinion as is anyone) - sickening and a pollution.
In summary, if not in those precise words. I was brought up Presbyterian, and my mother sometimes suggests that I'm still a Calvinist at heart :-). One of the extremely numerous things that I don't let bother me ...
Fwiw, Southern Baptists get the schnitz from real-live Calvinists for being Arminian. (Or Armenian, if the Calvinists ain't all that edicated.)
They all look alike to me. ;OD
You have to get in the spirit of cultural anthropology!
You are surely not telling me that extreme pressure is and has not been put upon many a young man to fulfill his mama and papa’s dreams of becoming a priest, the height of prestige in the Catholic Church - which means that he HAS TO REMAIN CELIBATE. So, priests are DISALLOWED to marry and it has wreaked havoc on that organization and cost millions of hard earned dollars that ordinary, poor parishioners lovingly placed in the collection plates. I’m sorry, but it is disgusting.
Your post's casual relationship with truth? I agree: disgusting.
Using that reasoning, I was "disallowed" from becoming a Catholic homeschooling mother of eight-children-so-far ... and I'm actually an old maid with catz and Commissioner of Internal Revenue.
Does your denomination recognize free will?
But your stories are not the chapter and verse stories...There's no such thing in the New Testament as a consecrated, sacred church building...That's my point...Your sacred church building has nothing to do with the church of Jesus Christ...
No no no --- we're an organization of multitudes of hypocritical sinners. Remember?
"...and costly possessions of silver, gold and marble statues"
Depends on where you are. We worshipped in a remodeled high school gym. And we don't bow before statues now: we bow before felt banners... :o)
"It appears to me that the hierarchy and most members of the Catholic Church consider itself as THE ONLY way to Christ."
No Catholic can in good conscience believe that only signed-up, card-carrying Catholics will be saved, because that view is specifically forbidden by Catholic doctrine:
Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Go ahead and click. It's even grander when read in context.
"In scripture, Christ himself said that He was the ONLY way to the Father."
Amend to that.
1. There is absolutely nothing “unnatural” regarding celibacy. Please read Matt. 19:11-12, Matt. 19:29, 1 Cor. 7:27, 1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38, for starters. Consecrating oneself to the Church is the true model of Christ’s love for the vocation of marriage between husband and wife.
2. The problem is now proven to be worse in Protestant denominations. You want to see rampant sex scandals and cover-ups?? Go to http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm. The rate of sexual scandal in these unstructured, unaccountable organizations is up to 2 and 3 times worse than that of the peak of the Catholic Church’s problem before they cracked down. On another note, nothing compares to the outrageous sexual misconduct occurring in our public schools.
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