Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

That Martin Luther? He Wasn’t So Bad, Says Pope
Times Online (London) ^ | March 6, 2008 | Richard Owen

Posted on 03/05/2008 8:13:07 PM PST by Dajjal

The Times
March 6, 2008

That Martin Luther? He Wasn’t So Bad, Says Pope

Richard Owen in Rome


Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Pope Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians — known as the Ratzinger Schülerkreis — at Castelgandolfo, the papal summer residence. According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, the head of the pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the move would help to promote ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Protestants. It is also designed to counteract the impact of July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches”.

The move to re-evaluate Luther is part of a drive to soften Pope Benedict's image as an arch conservative hardliner as he approaches the third anniversary of his election next month. This week it emerged that the Vatican is planning to erect a statue of Galileo, who also faced a heresy trial, to mark the 400th anniversary next year of his discovery of the telescope.

The Pope has also reached out to the Muslim world to mend fences after his 2006 speech at Regensburg University in which he appeared to describe Islam as inherently violent and irrational. This week Muslim scholars and Vatican officials met at the pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue in Rome to begin laying the groundwork for a meeting between the Pope and leading Muslims, also expected to be held at Castelgandolfo.

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: benedictxvi; bxvi; catholic; ecumenism; galileo; heresy; islam; kaspar; kasper; luther; lutheran; martinluther; pope; protestants; reformation; vatican
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-214 next last

1 posted on 03/05/2008 8:13:07 PM PST by Dajjal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480; narses; NYer; Salvation

ping


2 posted on 03/05/2008 8:14:11 PM PST by Dajjal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Petronski
Thought you might be interested. Pope Benedict must have heard me. ;-)

I'm guessing there is a big difference between talking nice about Martin Luther and actually lifting a papal bull (if that is even possible).

3 posted on 03/05/2008 8:21:06 PM PST by CommerceComet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: CommerceComet

I don’t know why they think this will unify Christians who have fundamental differences in core doctrines of Christianity. It is not going to bring about genuine unity, but a false unity.

I am glad they have come around on their thinking. The fact is though, Martin Luther did the right thing splitting from the Catholic Church, it is a Christian thing to do if those in error will not turn away from their errors. You must separate yourselves from those that will not turn away from error.

This statement says nothing about the Catholic church turning away from their doctrinal errors. And that is something they will never admit nor do. So it will still be correct to remain separated from them.


4 posted on 03/05/2008 8:29:24 PM PST by Secret Agent Man
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Dajjal
"Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic."

Saying he isn't a heretic is a long way from accepting his doctrine. I don't expect to see the Pope embracing "Bondage of the Will" anytime soon.

6 posted on 03/05/2008 8:41:42 PM PST by joebuck (Finitum non capax infinitum!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: lightman

Have you seen this?


7 posted on 03/05/2008 8:49:50 PM PST by SmithL (That's my story & I'm sticking to it!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Frumanchu
Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Pope Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians — known as the Ratzinger Schülerkreis — at Castelgandolfo, the papal summer residence. According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.

Did you read this?

8 posted on 03/05/2008 9:16:53 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: joebuck; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock
I don't expect to see the Pope embracing "Bondage of the Will" anytime soon.

I don't expect to see the Pope embracing "Bondage of the Will" Scriptural Truth anytime soon.

9 posted on 03/05/2008 9:20:13 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal
My God! How can one be calm when one hears such blasphemous lies uttered against the mysteries of Christ? How can one without resentment listen to such outrageous insults hurled against God's priests? Who can even read such blasphemies without weeping from sheer grief if he still retains in his heart even the smallest spark of Christian piety?

Trusting therefore in the goodness of our Lord we will in our turn try to launch three attacks against Luther by which as with a sponge we hope to wipe away all the filthy and blasphemous things that have proceeded from his mouth against priests.

-St. John Fisher, on Luther's The Abrogation of the Mass


10 posted on 03/05/2008 9:32:03 PM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Pyro7480

Hmmm ... not very ecumenical.


11 posted on 03/05/2008 9:38:31 PM PST by Dajjal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal

This is pretty funny, as a lot of the rip-roaring Romanists’ arguments will evaporate when the center of their authority changes his mind....

Seems to me there are many of them who post on FR who would want to argue with their pope on this, but oops, can’t do that!


12 posted on 03/05/2008 9:38:42 PM PST by AnalogReigns
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy; Gamecock; HarleyD; Frumanchu; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan; topcat54; wmfights
Bennie's just trying to soften the antithesis. All those who are justified by faith are still anathematized.

If and when Ben wants to lift the anathema, he knows where to find Bible-believing Christians -- anywhere but Rome.

13 posted on 03/05/2008 11:16:33 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: AnalogReigns
lol.

Whichever way the spin blows.

14 posted on 03/05/2008 11:19:18 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Eckleburg
he knows where to find Bible-believing Christians -- anywhere but Rome

Well there are a few in Rome:


15 posted on 03/05/2008 11:21:27 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Eckleburg

I wonder just what Jesus is thinking when he sees many of the comments written on this board.

“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole mind and they whole soul.

AND THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.”

So, why all the hate?


16 posted on 03/05/2008 11:29:11 PM PST by CdMGuy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal

One German sticking up for another. ;)


17 posted on 03/05/2008 11:59:34 PM PST by iowamark
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal
Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.

Spare us. It's a done deal and the world is a better place for it.

18 posted on 03/06/2008 12:26:06 AM PST by AlaskaErik (I served and protected my country for 31 years. Democrats spent that time trying to destroy it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal

Not suprising because a fellow German is not going to bad a major figure from German history.


19 posted on 03/06/2008 2:38:49 AM PST by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation, with 4 cats in my life as proof. =^..^=)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Biggirl

Me goof, need more coffee to wake up!

It should be “bad mouth”.


20 posted on 03/06/2008 2:40:02 AM PST by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation, with 4 cats in my life as proof. =^..^=)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Col Freeper
Interesting, not sure what it means since I have not been trained in either denomination.
21 posted on 03/06/2008 2:53:18 AM PST by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal

Quote: “Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices.”

Nope. Not going to happen. All Pope Benedict will do is say what everyone already knows and always knew: Luther was right on some things and wrong on others. He didn’t intend a split, but did nothing, NOTHING, to stop one when it obviously was happening.


22 posted on 03/06/2008 3:21:53 AM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal; Pyro7480; AnalogReigns; All
One thing that I've noted is that the press usually gets it wrong. I would respectfully suggest that any of our "separated brethren" actually read what the Pope says (or writes) rather than reading what the MSM will have to say about it.

I, for one, have stated before (on FR, in fact), was as much the fault of Leo X (the pope who excommunicated Luther) as anybody else. Any Catholic who has even a modicum of knowledge of history will acknowledge that Leo X's reign was a corrupt one. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia says about him:

Under such circumstances, it is not surprising that the large treasure left by Julius II was entirely dissipated in two years. In the spring of 1515 the exchequer was empty and Leo never after recovered from his financial embarrassment. Various doubtful and reprehensible methods were resorted to for raising money. He created new offices and dignities, and the most exalted places were put up for sale. Jubilees and indulgences were degraded almost entirely into financial transactions, yet without avail, as the treasury was ruined. The pope's income amounted to between 500,000 and 600,000 ducats. The papal household alone, which Julius II had maintained on 48,000 ducats, now cost double that sum. In all, Leo spent about four and a half million ducats during his pontificate and left a debt amounting to 400,000 ducats. On his unexpected death his creditors faced financial ruin. A lampoon proclaimed that "Leo X had consumed three pontificates; the treasure of Julius II, the revenues of his own reign, and those of his successor."

...

The only possible verdict on the pontificate of Leo X is that it was unfortunate for the Church. Sigismondo Tizio, whose devotion to the Holy See is undoubted, writes truthfully: "In the general opinion it was injurious to the Church that her Head should delight in plays, music, the chase and nonsense, instead of paying serious attention to the needs of his flock and mourning over their misfortunes". Von Reumont says pertinently–"Leo X is in great measure to blame for the fact that faith in the integrity and merit of the papacy, in its moral and regenerating powers, and even in its good intentions, should have sunk so low that men could declare extinct the old true spirit of the Church."

Luther's initial desire: to rid the Church of the scourge of Simony was a worthy cause (as many, many Catholics here on FR have stated). The end result is altogether different.

Yes, it will be interesting to read what Ratzinger has to say about Luther this fall. But I would encourage all to actually read what he wrote/ said, rather than the MSM account of the same -- because with the track record that the MSM has, they will get it wrong.

23 posted on 03/06/2008 4:23:55 AM PST by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Secret Agent Man
You're as delusional as Luther was and seeing as how the press rarely gets anything right concerning the Vatican, prudent people will wait to read the actual document from Benedict XVI.

By the way, you no doubt share Luther's views, writings and teachings on the Blessed Virgin Mary, don't you?

24 posted on 03/06/2008 4:25:01 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; AlternateViewpoint; AnalogReigns; Archie Bunker on steroids; Arrowhead1952; ..


Lutheran Ping!

Keep a Good Lent!

25 posted on 03/06/2008 5:20:42 AM PST by lightman (Waiting for Godot and searching for Avignon.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: lightman

Thanks for the ping lightman. Very interesting. I have to email this to our past congregation president, since he also teaches our adult Bible class each Sunday.


26 posted on 03/06/2008 5:38:09 AM PST by Arrowhead1952 (Both dim candidates promise change and/or hope. I don't think the USA can afford their message.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal

The mainstream press has a batting average of approximately .000 with regard to the Pope and certain claims they make about what he’s going to say or do.

The press is trying to weaken the Church’s standing by claiming that the Pope is going to come out and say the Church made a mistake by claiming Luther was a heretic. That’s nothing but a fantasy.

There’s no way Luther wasn’t a heretic, unless someone can prove that he didn’t take it upon himself to reject Pope Damasus’ decree that the so-called “apocrypha” are inspired Scripture, and devised his own personal biblical canon which he used to lure the faithful away from the Church of Rome. If that doesn’t qualify as heresy, I don’t know what does.


27 posted on 03/06/2008 5:43:42 AM PST by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: iowamark
Yup, that's what they get for selecting a German pope. And a beer connoiseur, to boot!

Luther was excommunicated by Pope Leo X, who dismissed him initially as “a drunken German who will change his mind when sober”.

Looks like poor old Leo is 0-for-2. :)

"To alcohol! The cause of--and solution to--all of life's problems." -Homer Simpson

28 posted on 03/06/2008 5:51:15 AM PST by Zero Sum (Liberalism: The damage ends up being a thousand times the benefit! (apologies to Rabbi Benny Lau))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Mark -

Luther’s formal rejection of Pope Damasus’ decree on the canon of inspired Scripture is a show-stopper, with regards to any attempts to repeal his label as a heretic.

The angle of this study will likely tend towards relieving the notion that Luther was pointedly trying to destroy the Church, but that applies to a lot of heretics who at least wanted to remain in the Church but refused assent to particular teachings.


29 posted on 03/06/2008 5:51:56 AM PST by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal
Well, DUH!

Better late than never, I guess.

30 posted on 03/06/2008 5:57:38 AM PST by Redleg Duke ("All gave some, and some gave all!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: joebuck
"Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic."

I wonder what that is going to do to my ex-Mother-in-Law who considered me as Lutheran to be a heretic?

Actually, I really don't care. :-)

31 posted on 03/06/2008 5:59:36 AM PST by Redleg Duke ("All gave some, and some gave all!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: CdMGuy

Jesus will think, “FReepers can be mean.”

I think He trolls the threads taking names. Blessed Be God and Blessed be His people.

And some of the best Christians here are horribly hateful. We all know who they are. Bet He does too.


32 posted on 03/06/2008 6:04:53 AM PST by netmilsmom (Giving up "Hairspray" and the cast for Lent. Prayers appreciated!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal
"July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches”. "

It is going to take a heck of alot more to counteract that statement! What he is basically saying is the Martin Luther did the right thing, but in doing so, created a "defective and not proper" church!

33 posted on 03/06/2008 6:08:25 AM PST by Redleg Duke ("All gave some, and some gave all!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

I’m with you, vlad. One needs to consider the source here: The London Times. While it is certainly less overwrought and error-prone about Catholicism than, say, The London Telegraph or the Daily Mail, it still has a long way to go by way of self-education about things Catholic.

I doubt that Benedict will go anywhere near as far as this story claims. He will likely simply say that Luther did not “intend” to cause a split. It is likely that that is quite true - at the beginning - but, as you say, vlad, he did nothing whatsoever to either reconcile his own “movement” with the Church, or try, through his influence, to stop the quick proliferation of even more extremist views. He might have had, based on his writings, some regrets about the course of events after October 31, 1517, but nothing came of them even within Lutheranism.


34 posted on 03/06/2008 6:12:10 AM PST by magisterium
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal

This is the Times’ wishful interpretation of the subject; Benedict has many times in the past discussed Luther; he is a scholar, and his opinions are quite well known and not likely to change.

Aside from whatever the Pope is going to say, everybody has always acknowledged that Luther never set out to leave the Catholic Church. But his doctrines led him further and further afield (and we won’t even discuss the bizarreness of the end of his life, when his moral compass seems to have gone haywire and he began advocating things like polygamy and the early equivalent of “free love”). Like all heresies, Luther’s thought picks one or two points of orthodox doctrine and exaggerates them to a point where they take off on their own and leave orthodoxy behind.

And of course, the people who followed him, such as Calvin, each picked their own special favorite doctrine to distort and set in a central place as the keystone of “their” religion. This is simply the standard course of heresies - whether or not the person in question initially intends to leave orthodoxy, he inevitably ends by doing so. And the people who follow them then feel free to pick some doctrine of their leader which they think is particularly important (or even particularly wrong) and build “their” new, improved church on that doctrine and their thoughts about it. This is the reason there are so many Protestant churches; it’s a never-ending cycle of splintering.


35 posted on 03/06/2008 6:15:51 AM PST by livius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Redleg Duke

Growing up, my Catholic friends thought Luther was the DEVIL on earth. Walk into a Lutheran church?? Nothin’ doin....the walls would crash in upon them.

Doubt the pope can undo umpteen years of indoctrination.

Maybe the pope has recognized that it’s not the Prots that are the enemy of church.


36 posted on 03/06/2008 6:16:37 AM PST by bonfire
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Secret Agent Man
I am glad they have come around on their thinking. The fact is though, Martin Luther did the right thing splitting from the Catholic Church, it is a Christian thing to do if those in error will not turn away from their errors. You must separate yourselves from those that will not turn away from error.

I couldn't agree more. I'm on your side (and Martin Luther's) in this dispute. Perhaps if the RC Church can admit an error on Martin Luther, they could someday admit error concerning justification by faith alone. Like you, I am doubtful.

37 posted on 03/06/2008 6:22:50 AM PST by CommerceComet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal
I absolutely believe everything the Times of London prints about the pope and Holy Mother Church, every thing! /sarc.(duh)
38 posted on 03/06/2008 6:30:39 AM PST by conservonator (spill czeck is knot my friend)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
He didn’t intend a split, but did nothing, NOTHING, to stop one when it obviously was happening.

And how exactly was the unity of the Church a responsibility of his? Especially a Church that was selling sin (indulgences), etc. I don't recall Jesus making any comments about mandating unity amongst churches.

39 posted on 03/06/2008 6:38:15 AM PST by Teacher317 (Eta kuram na smekh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal
The move to re-evaluate Luther is part of a drive to soften Pope Benedict's image as an arch conservative hardliner as he approaches the third anniversary of his election next month.

Folks, this line right here tells you that the author is being a little creative with "facts". BXVI is not in the "image" business.

The Pope's motives for whatever is coming out are motivated by a charitable desire to heal the wounds of 500 years. It is also undoubtedly true that many of the heretical planks of Protestantism which are popular today had no place in Luther's theology but were the works of "reformers" who followed Luther.

A closer examination of what Luther really intended would be good for both Catholics and Protestants. It would help Protestants to see that Luther never envisioned nor intended today's alphabet soup of "churches" and it would help Catholics to understand the true nature of how the Reformation began and then progressed.

40 posted on 03/06/2008 6:46:53 AM PST by marshmallow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Secret Agent Man; CommerceComet
This statement says nothing about the Catholic church turning away from their doctrinal errors.

For the benefit of the visitors, would you kindly list them.

41 posted on 03/06/2008 6:47:26 AM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Dajjal
It is also designed to counteract the impact of July's papal statement describing the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as defective and “not proper Churches”.

Shakes head, wonders how he can get a job writing fiction for major English language publication...

42 posted on 03/06/2008 6:50:23 AM PST by conservonator (spill czeck is knot my friend)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
For the benefit of the visitors, would you kindly list them.

Since I didn't raise the issues of other errors, I'll let others list them. The biggest disagreement between Catholics and Protestants would be on the issue of justification. Protestants would hold that a person is saved by faith in the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ ALONE while Catholics would hold that a person is saved by the same faith AND good works.

I'm sure that I'm missing nuances in both positions but I think that captures the essence of the difference.

43 posted on 03/06/2008 7:30:28 AM PST by CommerceComet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Teacher317

You wrote:

“And how exactly was the unity of the Church a responsibility of his?”

All Christians have the responsibility to avoid schism. Is this news to you?

“Especially a Church that was selling sin (indulgences), etc.”

1) The Church never sold indulgences. Individuals may have, but that was a violation of canon law.

2) An indulgence is not sin, nor were sins sold, nor could anyone ever buy there way out of sin.

3) Indulgences had to do with penance, not the sins themselves.

4) Why is it that Protestants always assume they know what indulgences are when they’ve enever studied the issue, or the history, etc.?

“I don’t recall Jesus making any comments about mandating unity amongst churches.”

He didn’t have to. He prayed that the Church would stay ONE. Schisms, in light of fractious human behavior, is inevitable.


44 posted on 03/06/2008 7:58:06 AM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: CommerceComet
Perhaps if the RC Church can admit an error on Martin Luther, they could someday admit error concerning justification by faith alone

There's the little matter of the Council of Trent:

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
And, less dogmatically on the Orthodox side, the reply of Patriarch Jeremias to the Lutherans at Tubingen:

Following is the third section concerning justification by faith and good works, which shall be further explained. We do not merely say that those who obey the law shall be justified, but those who obey the spiritual law, which is understood spiritually and according to the inner man. Indeed, by "fulfilling the law of the spirit as much as we are able, we will be justified and we will not fall from grace because the Cleansing Word has passed into the depths of the soul.

As people have wisely pointed out on this thread, the re-evaluation of Luther as a person is entirely valid, but it does not mean the vindication of doctrines attributed to Luther which have been condemned not just in the 1500s but for all time.

In short, the Catholic Church will never and can never turn away from its repudiation of justification by faith alone, any more than the Orthodox or oriental Churches will come to accept it. Quite simply, it is alien to the doctrine of the faith as it has been passed down from the Apostles, at least insofar as it is framed in Trent's condemnation.

Now, to what degree Reformed Christians actually hold to the condemned heresies is another matter. It could well be that your average Lutheran today (or even Luther himself) does not believe what Trent condemned, in which case, there of course is room for dialogue and increased understanding.

And I also think that many Reformed Christians don't really understand what it is that the Catholic Church teaches about how grace relates to works. Trent also said this:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

45 posted on 03/06/2008 8:15:19 AM PST by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
All Christians have the responsibility to avoid schism. Is this news to you?

Actually, yes. Please cite the scripture that supports your assertion. I'm no Biblical scholar.

46 posted on 03/06/2008 8:35:35 AM PST by Teacher317 (Eta kuram na smekh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Teacher317

You wrote:

“Actually, yes.”

Then I suggest you study.

“Please cite the scripture that supports your assertion.”

I made no assertion. Jesus prayed for unity. That is a fact.

“I’m no Biblical scholar.”

John 17:21.


47 posted on 03/06/2008 8:44:55 AM PST by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
From the Catholic Encyclopedia, quoted above:

Various doubtful and reprehensible methods were resorted to for raising money. He created new offices and dignities, and the most exalted places were put up for sale. Jubilees and indulgences were degraded almost entirely into financial transactions, yet without avail, as the treasury was ruined.

You said: 1) The Church never sold indulgences. Individuals may have, but that was a violation of canon law.

How can you say that only "individuals" sold indulgences when even the Pope, who is the very embodiment of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on Earth, the man from whom Canon law proceeds, did that very thing?

48 posted on 03/06/2008 8:55:44 AM PST by Terabitten (Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets - E-Frat '94. Unity and Pride!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: AnalogReigns
Seems to me there are many of them who post on FR who would want to argue with their pope on this, but oops, can’t do that!

You think everything a Pope says or does is infallible and beyond question?

Because I'm an orthodox Catholic, and I don't. And -- get this -- neither does the Catholic Church!

However, an article from the Times of London speculating about what the Pope is going to do according to "Vatican insiders" is fine stuff ... for training puppies or wrapping fish.

49 posted on 03/06/2008 8:56:55 AM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: A.A. Cunningham

Nice try, trying to use Luther against Luther. Luther was a great man, but Luther was also a man. He didn’t always get everything right. I am sure you’d be the first to say that. Insofar as Luther’s teachings and writings are affirmed by Scripture, we accept them; as for those that do not, we would reject them. Otherwise would you have me also have to accept the later writings of a frustrated, older, weakening Luther describing how the Jews, and even some of his own German people, were stubbornly refusing conversion?


50 posted on 03/06/2008 9:00:31 AM PST by Secret Agent Man
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-214 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson