Lutheran (ELCA) Ping!
Posted on 03/13/2008 10:32:35 AM PDT by SmithL
A task force drafting a statement on sexuality for the nation's largest Lutheran group said Thursday that the church should continue defining marriage as the union of one man and one woman.
However, the panel did not condemn same-gender relationships. The committee expressed regret that historic Lutheran teachings have been used to hurt gays and lesbians, and acknowledged that some congregations already accept same-sex couples.
The report released by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is part of the denomination's yearslong effort to bridge internal differences over the Bible and homosexuality.
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, a separate, smaller group, is theologically conservative, and teaches that same-gender relationships violate Scripture.
Called a "Draft Social Statement on Human Sexuality," the report is a wide-ranging study of Christian views on sexual morality, premarital sex, domestic abuse and families.
But the most anticipated part of the document was whether the task force would recommend equal standing for gay and heterosexual couples in the 4.8 million-member church.
Next year, the panel will decide whether to suggest changes in current clergy standards that bar gays and lesbians from being ordained if they are sexually active. After revisions, both proposals will be presented for a vote to the 2009 Churchwide Assembly in Minneapolis.
The document released Thursday repeatedly states that sexual intimacy should be reserved for married couples, and condemns sex for personal gratification alone.
"The church recognizes the historic origin of the term `marriage' as a lifelong and committed relationship between a woman and a man, and does not wish to alter this understanding," the report says.
The task force goes on to describe different responses to gays and lesbians in congregations, noting that some churches require celibacy for them, while others urge gay couples to "establish relationships that are chaste, mutual, monogamous and lifelong."
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
Lutheran Pastor Ping for you, Charles. I’m assuming that you are part of the “smaller, more conservative” Missouri Synod?
They said Scripture should be interpreted in light of scientific knowledge and human experience.How special is that?
No offense, but if your church ever starts ‘task forces’ to ‘study’ the issue of gays, it’s just a wedge in the door to ultimately get it accepted one way or the other. The task forces never go away, they get more and more liberal in their ‘findings’ and ‘recommendations’, and serve as a legitimizing source others can reference when trying to advance changes to your church’s bylaws, teaching statements and doctrinal beliefs. It’s about incrementalism and the agenda of those involved to get homosexuality accepted as ‘God approved’ for any number of personal reasons.
As usual, the E”L”CA (Luther would be damning them to hell) is apologizing for Scripture. It is just so embarrassing to try to be on the cutting edge in “The Church of What’s Happening Now” when the Bible condemns homosexuality and calls it an abomination to God. Why some people convince themselves that such ungodly institutions are “Christian” and still support them with their attendance and offerings is a mystery.
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name?...Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” Matthew 7:22-23.
LCMS is my church.
There is a precedence for this MO.
I only make this reply to explain the purple lettering and its history:
The “ELCA” in the ping banner was something that I added about a year ago because some LCMS folk were—quite rightly—distressed by actions taking place within the ELCA. When such pings were simply titled “Lutheran Ping” they believed that they needed to differentiate themselves.
Yes. The precedents are what has happened in: the Episcopal Church - USA; Presbyterian Church - USA, ELCA; United Church of Christ; United Methodist Church; Metropolitan Community Church (gay church); and even the Roman Catholic church has groups pushing for acceptance of gays.
You are correct.
Don’t worry; our separated bretheren in the ELCA appreciate LCMS folks stopping by to offer the opinion of God’s one true church.
Those congregations have violated biblical teaching. We are not to 'accept' sin or allow the unrepentent to be members in good standing of the church.
Instead, if they refuse to repent after being confronted in a biblical manner, they are to be put out of the church until they do.
This 5 year long process is just the beginning....the queers that run this organization have just started.
hey you aren’t on #prosapologian are you?
Yeah but theyr'e still 'hurting' them by not allowing them to marry, why don 't they just go all the way? Are they as welcoming to child abusers and puppy kickers too?
AAAARGH! Ichabod. Loooong time ago. I'd have been out of there long before they started welcoming open sin, I would leave long before that, when Jesus was no longer welcome.
What's that supposed to mean?
God bless LCMS, but there's precious little to teach here. Anyone who has read Scripture understands that homosexuality is an abomination.
But I suppose those who actually submit to Scripture are somewhat fewer in number nowadays.
“A task force drafting a statement on sexuality for the nation’s largest Lutheran group said Thursday that the church should continue defining marriage as the union of one man and one woman. “
It takes a task force to decide that?
Is our culture really that dense?
That is how it works. People with a “liberal” agenda first just want “dialog.” As they infiltrate a church, they want to push for un-Biblical views to be recognized as a “respected minority view.” As they gain power, the un-Biblical view becomes “mainstream” and anyone who disagrees is an “extremist.” Finally, they officially “re-define” the doctrine and remove anyone dissents. They triumphantly praclaim, “the time for dialog is over.”
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
These “task force”’s and “study groups” are a hoax. These groups have already come to their conclusions ahead of time and now need to twist and revise scripture to make their conclusions acceptable. I could smell this garbage start to stink back in 2003 and is why I left the ELCA and went back to my Catholic roots.
Just look at what the fags and dykes did to the Episcopal Church, now the Gay Lobby Unitarians Meeting Group.
The ELCA has actually had some pretty regular meetings to discuss whether or not the Bible is even the inspired word of God.
A Missouri-Synod Pastor I know (Best Man at my wedding, believe it or not), actually went to one of the internally advertised meetings. He left, telling us afterwards that the ELCA is basically either going to split like the Methodists or be done as a Christian Church altogether.
When the going gets tough on issues like homosexuality and abortion, the tough change scripture in the ELCA.
***even the Roman Catholic church has groups pushing for acceptance of gays.***
Thank the Lord for the Magisterium. Individuals or groups don’t make doctrine and they don’t get to say which portions of Scripture are irrelevant.
The Church, by the way, does not discriminate among individual people; it discriminates by people’s actions. Having a homosexual orientation is not wrong by itself; acting upon it is. It is not about what people are, it is about what they do, and the reasons for it.
there is no doubt that homosexuality is a violation of Scripture.
But, one may accept that homosexuality itself is sinful and still treat homosexuals like they would treat other people because that is what I think Christ Himself would say. Remember what Christ told the Pharisees who wanted to stone the adulterous woman: “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.”
I just want to be clear here: I was not arguing for the Lutheran Church to alter it’s position on the essential teachings on sexual morality
as far as Christ is concerned, just by desiring sin we are sinning. For example, wanting to commit adultery is just as sinful as the actual act.
You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But now I tell you: anyone who looks at a woman and wants to possess her is guilty of committing adultery with her in his heart. (Matthew 5:27)
Actually the Orthodox Churches even have a group.
“Having a homosexual orientation is not wrong by itself; acting upon it is. It is not about what people are, it is about what they do, and the reasons for it.”
I don’t believe that it isn’t wrong by itself. If they think about it all the time and fantasize about it, and go so far as to make it THEIR DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC of who they are, yet never really commit a homosexual act with another person, it is still wrong. Christ’s words are clear, if you fantasize about sin in your head, you have already committed that sin. You think about killing your brother because you hate him, it’s as if you are guilty of murder.
So no, I don’t think that is right. There are wrong mindsets for people to have. Wrong fantasies. Wrong desires. Wrong lifestyles. Whether they get a chance to act on them or not. In His own words Christ tells us that wrong thinking, which is sinful in itself, leads to wrong actions. Sinful thoughts bring forth sinful actions. You can’t say the sinful thoughts and desires are okay as long as the person doesn’t commit sinful acts. Both are wrong and sinful.
Someone who says “I’m a gay man” or “I’m a gay christian” is clearly defining his lifestyle as homosexual, and is telling you that he has sexual thoughts that are sinful. To be gay, you will be thinking about sex with men. Whether or not he actually has sex with men is immaterial. Just thinking about sex with other men is sinful behavior, and if left unchecked it will lead him to commit actual sinful acts with other men.
I’m not surprised. I have a presentation I put together a couple of years ago on pro-homosexual churches, so I may have had that in there.
Things like there are two equal forces of Chaos and Order, no real Incarnation, and the such, were why he left. It damn near (and I used that world deliberately) shipwrecked his faith.
To my friends and family, fighting the rearguard action in the ELCA, please be aware of the danger to your soul and to those in your care from the new generation of pastors coming out.
***I don’t believe that it isn’t wrong by itself. If they think about it all the time and fantasize about it, and go so far as to make it THEIR DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC of who they are, yet never really commit a homosexual act with another person, it is still wrong. Christ’s words are clear, if you fantasize about sin in your head, you have already committed that sin.***
I’d certainly agree with you there. Dwelling on something can certainly be as sinful as actually committing the act.
But, for instance, say that on a certain Sunday there is a foot of snow from the night before and I have to get up early and shovel the driveway to get the car out before I go to Mass. I can think about lying abed and watching Meet the Depressed with Tim Russert, but as long as I don’t entertain that urge and act in the appropriate fashion, then I don’t think that any sin is committed.
Mindsets and fantasies taken to their conclusions result in deeds. If someone defines himself as that type of orientation, then I agree that regardless of whether the act is done, the state of sin is there.
Yes, you are right on. The sinful thought enters the mind, and if you dwell on it and start fantasizing on it, that’s sinful. If you can push it out of your mind and go on to other things, you’ve overcome it. We are all tempted, and simply being tempted by something we see or think about isn’t sinful. If we start dwelling on it nad fantasizing about it, it is sinful.
And we’ve all probably done it. The difference is is that we don’t expect others to tell us what we’re doing is okay, we’re just born that way. Alcoholism? NO you were just BORN that way. Drugs? Sex addict? Adulterer? Thief? Homosexual? Lazy fat slob? Gambler? That’s the difference. We don’t have ‘support groups’ making excuses for our particular weaknesses. We don’t brazenly and openly celebrate our sins. We are embarassed by them. We are ashamed of them. We don’t talk about “Adulterer’s Pride” or “Fornicator’s Pride.” The only serious sin we tell people is normal and okay is homosexuality, and that is totally and utterly wrong. We aren’t doing them a favor by affirming sexual perversion. the reason they feel bad or weird or unhappy is because they are engaged in sinful behavior and on some level they know it but cannot stop. Being told by someone that what you’re doing is okay may temporarily provide fake relief, but it’s not permanent.
I’m similar to that friend of yours. I was a member of ELCA churches, 1989-2007. Since many ELCA leaders, including both pastors of my last ELCA church, support ordaining gays, I joined a Missouri Synod church. My dad is a retired ELCA pastor, and my parents joined a Missouri Synod church. I told my mom that our faith reminds me of what Reagan said about Democrats, “I didn’t leave the Democratic Party. They left me.” My parents and I didn’t leave the ELCA. The ELCA left us and the Bible.
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