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Pope: Enough With Slaughters in Iraq
AP ^ | 3/16/2008 | NICOLE WINFIELD

Posted on 03/16/2008 7:15:05 AM PDT by markomalley

Pope Benedict XVI leaves a confessional in the St. Peter's Basilica, at the Vatican, Thursday, March 13, 2008 after he heard confessions by faithful. (AP Photo/GIUSEPPE GIGLIA, POOL)

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Benedict XVI issued one of his strongest appeals for peace in Iraq on Sunday, days after the body of the kidnapped Chaldean Catholic archbishop was found near the northern city of Mosul.

The pope also denounced the 5-year-long Iraq war, saying it had provoked the complete breakup of Iraqi civilian life.

"Enough with the slaughters. Enough with the violence. Enough with the hatred in Iraq!" Benedict said to applause at the end of his Palm Sunday Mass in St. Peter's Square.

On Thursday, the body of Archbishop Paulos Faraj Rahho was found near Mosul. He had been abducted on Feb. 29.

Benedict has called Rahho's death an "inhuman act of violence" that offended human dignity.

On Sunday, Benedict praised Rahho for his loyalty to Christ and his refusal to abandon his flock despite many threats and difficulties.

He recalled Rahho's death as the Catholic Church opens Holy Week, the most solemn week in the liturgical calendar in which the faithful recall the suffering and death of Jesus Christ.

Benedict said Rahho's dedication to the Catholic Church and his death compelled him to "raise a strong and sorrowful cry" to denounce the violence in Iraq spawned by the war that began five years ago this week.

"At the same time, I make an appeal to the Iraqi people, who for the past five years have borne the consequences of a war that provoked the breakup of their civil and social life," Benedict said.

He urged them to raise their heads and reconstruct their life through "reconciliation, forgiveness, justice and coexistence among tribal, ethnic and religious groups."

The Vatican strongly opposed the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. In its aftermath, Benedict has frequently criticized attacks against Iraqi Christians by Islamic extremists. Last year, he urged President Bush to keep the safety of Iraqi Christians in mind.

Benedict is due to preside over a memorial service at the Vatican on Monday in honor of Rahho. Typically, the pope only presides over such services when a cardinal dies.

The pontiff's appeal for peace came at the end of his Palm Sunday Mass, which opens the Church's busy Holy Week celebrations. They include the Good Friday re-enactment of Christ's crucifixion and death and the celebration of Christ's resurrection on Easter Sunday.

At the start of Mass, Benedict blessed palms and olive branches with holy water and then processed through St. Peter's Square, wearing intricate, red- and gold-brocaded vestments and clutching a woven palm frond.

In his homily, Benedict urged the faithful to follow God with the innocence and purity of a child's heart.

"To recognize God, we must abandon the pride that dazzles us, that seeks to push us away from God," he said. To find God, he said, "we must learn to see with a young heart, one which isn't blocked by prejudice and dazzled by interests."

A few hundred young people carried massive palm fronds at the start of the procession through the square as part of the lead-up to celebrations for the Catholic Church's annual World Youth Day.

Benedict plans to attend World Youth Day in Sydney, Australia, in July.



TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: chaldean; iraq; iraqichristians; persecution; rahho
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1 posted on 03/16/2008 7:15:06 AM PDT by markomalley
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To: markomalley

I am sure that many Iraqi’s are happy that their civil life was broken; not so much their social life.

The statement is a good reminder that we need to pray for Christians in Iraq who’s plight has been ignored; sacrificed on the altar of “make nice with the Sunnis and Shiites”. The Catholic Church seems to be the only one speaking up for them.


2 posted on 03/16/2008 7:39:56 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("...millions hate what they mistakenly think that the Catholic Church is." ~ Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
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To: markomalley; Salvation; NYer

“Enough with the slaughters. Enough with the violence. Enough with the hatred in Iraq!”

Unfortunately the Muslims aren’t listening.

And sooner or later we are going to have to give them the Jihad they so desperately want.


3 posted on 03/16/2008 7:39:59 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: kellynla
Unfortunately the Muslims aren’t listening. And sooner or later we are going to have to give them the Jihad they so desperately want.

Blanket bigotry like that will pretty much guarantee it, son -- and it's not even necessary. It's ok to differentiate between Islamic terrorists and other Muslims. You won't go to hell for it.

4 posted on 03/16/2008 7:44:12 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: big'ol_freeper

It’s really unfortunate that Bush has been so obsessed with the idea of making nice to Muslims that he seems unwilling to intervene in any way to protect Christians. Muslims won’t do it voluntarily, or at least, not the radical flakes in Iraq (although I’m sure that the great majority of the Muslims there really don’t care and wouldn’t bother Christians, left to their own devices). But Bush, like Clinton before him, seems bound and determined to make it clear that the US has no particular bond with Christians.


5 posted on 03/16/2008 7:45:36 AM PDT by livius
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To: livius
Muslims won’t do it voluntarily, or at least, not the radical flakes in Iraq

Pssst.... in case you missed it, the radical flakes in Iraq don't even protect other Muslims. They're terrorists.

That you fail to distinguish between terrorists and Muslims in general, marks you as rather short-sited. If we are to win in Iraq, it will be because the Muslim population of Iraq learns to behave in a civilized manner -- and that seems to be happening.

But if you want to lose in Iraq, by all means take care to lump every Muslim there into the "terrorist" camp -- and you'll get your wish.

6 posted on 03/16/2008 7:52:08 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: r9etb
“Blanket bigotry like that will pretty much guarantee it, son — and it's not even necessary. It's ok to differentiate between Islamic terrorists and other Muslims.”

First, I'm not your “son”
Second, the only thing that will “guarantee” the cessation of Islamic terrorist attacks are Muslims.
Finally, the only difference in “Islamic terrorists and "other Muslims” is terror. When “other Muslims” start “taking out their own trash” then Muslim terrorism will cease and then we can start living in peace.



But of course, the Muslims aren't interested in peace; they want you, me and every other non-Muslim d...e...a...d.
If Muslims wanted to live in peace they wouldn't be Muslims now would they.
Let us all know when you "get it!"

Class Dismissed!

7 posted on 03/16/2008 8:08:40 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: big'ol_freeper

Benedict should spend as much effort cleaning up the pedophile priest scandal—including the Church’s complicity—as he does denouncing military and political actions. As an alumnus of the Hitler Youth, he should know a just fight against tyranny when he sees it. And he should render to Ceasar what is his. It’s hard to remain a practicing Catholic with this kind of nonsense coming from the top.


8 posted on 03/16/2008 8:18:43 AM PDT by rmgatto
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To: rmgatto

Well, keep practicing because you suck at it.
I think you hit every bigoted two knuckle deep nose picking anti Catholic sentiment there is.


9 posted on 03/16/2008 8:23:19 AM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: rmgatto

What pedophile priest scandal? I am aware of a homosexual priest scandal, but other than liberals spewing false charges of pedophile priests, I have never seen claims of or any priest charged with any wrongdoing associated with pre-pubescent children (that is what pedophilia is). Is there a pedophilia scandal in the public schools? Interesting that with all the abuse of teenagers going on there you never see it described as pedophilia...why?

Are you trying to advance the homosexual agenda by diverting attention from the immorality and destructiveness of homosexuality or are you just a useful idiot for the liberal agenda to do the same?


10 posted on 03/16/2008 8:27:30 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("...millions hate what they mistakenly think that the Catholic Church is." ~ Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
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To: markomalley

“Enough with the slaughter in Iraq...” Bring back Saddam’s men and the rape rooms. After all America is a force for evil in the world right?” Holy Father, please stick matters of Faith and Morals.


11 posted on 03/16/2008 8:29:26 AM PDT by jmaroneps37 (Conservatives live in the truth. Liberals live in lies.)
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To: r9etb

Er, you may not have noticed in your screed, but that was exactly what I was doing - distinguishing between the ordinary guy who probably doesn’t care and just wants to get on with his life, and the radical flakes.

The problem is that our passivity has encouraged the radical flakes to attack Christians (and our enshrining Islam in the Iraqi constitution encouraged both parties of radical flakes to think they could get control of the country, so I think it even encouraged fighting between the Muslims themselves).


12 posted on 03/16/2008 8:51:57 AM PDT by livius
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To: markomalley
"Enough with the slaughters. Enough with the violence. Enough with the hatred in Iraq!" Benedict said to applause at the end of his Palm Sunday Mass in St. Peter's Square.

Is this a call on America to withdraw its troops? Will that stop the killing?

13 posted on 03/16/2008 8:54:23 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: markomalley
I didn't know the Pope had this power to declare Evil to stop.

Is he going to calm the storms and walk on water next?

He isn't Jesus.

Evil will continue on this earth until Christ returns and defeats it.

The Pope's job is to win souls for Jesus Christ.

He should get back to it.

14 posted on 03/16/2008 8:55:28 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: IrishCatholic

Bump


15 posted on 03/16/2008 8:56:34 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: jmaroneps37
Holy Father, please stick matters of Faith and Morals.

Are you his boss, or is he your boss?

16 posted on 03/16/2008 8:58:32 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. I think, judging from things he’s said before, that he wants the Muslims to stop killing Christians (and each other) and wants the US to do more to ensure stability. Saddam was awful, but he was a dictator who didn’t want anybody else getting on his turf - he wasn’t about to share power with a mad mullah, and consequently he ruled with an iron fist and kept the Islamic factions down, giving Christians relative security as a result.

Personally, I don’t think the Iraqis were ready for self-government when we gave it to them, and I think there should really have been a period of very firm occupation. But Bush was under a lot of pressure to get moving and get out of there. In addition, I think he was naive; none of us knew then what we know now about Islam and the Muslim propensity for slaughter.

Aside from that, the US never protects Christians, almost as a point of pride, I think.


17 posted on 03/16/2008 8:59:57 AM PDT by livius
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To: rmgatto
Benedict should spend as much effort cleaning up the pedophile priest scandal—including the Church’s complicity—as he does denouncing military and political actions.

I think that is fair criticism. He has never dealt with this issue head on, although, he is much more conservative and direct on the issue than was John Paul II - who simply ignored it for years and years - even when it became a tidal wave.

As an alumnus of the Hitler Youth, he should know a just fight against tyranny when he sees it.

In fairness to him - he didn't joining voluntarily, and he left that group. Moreover, every youth in Deutschland in the 1930's (girls included) were required to join a Hitler cult organization.

And he should render to Ceasar what is his. It’s hard to remain a practicing Catholic with this kind of nonsense coming from the top.

The words of Christ are amazing, are they not? No doubt that the Pharisee who tried to trick Christ into either supporting taxes or Rome was probably saying "How did this uneducated rube from backwater Galilee come up with that response so quickly and turn the tables on me?"

As I said previously on this thread, the Pope should concentrate on winning souls for Jesus Christ. Declaring and End to Evil and "Enough" is not his call. It is God's.

18 posted on 03/16/2008 9:01:05 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: livius
I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. I think, judging from things he’s said before, that he wants the Muslims to stop killing Christians (and each other) and wants the US to do more to ensure stability.

If he really wanted that, he would be urging the nations that have refused to go to Iraq to join with the US in assisting Iraq to get stabilized.

No, he wants the US out of Iraq, so the newspapers will leave Iraq and then we won't hear about all the atrocities anymore and people will stop asking HIM questions about the place. You don't see him crying for peace in Iran do you?

19 posted on 03/16/2008 9:09:14 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: kellynla

Excellent comeback to a preetty snide comment.


20 posted on 03/16/2008 9:12:15 AM PDT by joebuck (Finitum non capax infinitum!)
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To: markomalley

It is always imperative in news stories regarding anything the Pope, The Church or any religious leaders “said”-even more so than with other people who “say” things-to read through the story to determine exactly what was said. The headlines and first two paragraphs don’t always match the actual quotes.


21 posted on 03/16/2008 9:21:13 AM PDT by John W
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To: SkyPilot
Thanks for your thoughtful response.

I do not blame the Pope for his participation in the Hitler Youth. My point--not well made--was that he should have a personal awareness of the dangers of tyranny (Nazism, al Queda) and understand that it must be fought vigorously if freedom (including of religion) is to be protected.

22 posted on 03/16/2008 9:36:49 AM PDT by rmgatto
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To: markomalley

Peace without liberty is not peace. I still wonder what the Vatican of today’s position would be on the American Revolution. There was so much violence and social upheaval.


23 posted on 03/16/2008 10:12:04 AM PDT by iranger
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To: big'ol_freeper
Dear big'ol_freeper,

For the sake of accuracy, there were a few priests who were genuinely pedophilic, assaulting children as young as six years of age.

However, the gist of your post is correct - this was primarily a scandal of active, aggressive, typical homosexuals being permitted into the priesthood.


sitetest

24 posted on 03/16/2008 11:04:26 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

...and the Church dealt with it, even before it had to be dragged kicking and screaming to disclose the extent of the problem. Almost all cases stem from the 60’s and 70’s.

Now if there were only the witch hunt there needs to be in the public schools.


25 posted on 03/16/2008 11:15:30 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("...millions hate what they mistakenly think that the Catholic Church is." ~ Archbishop Fulton Sheen)
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To: SkyPilot
As I said previously on this thread, the Pope should concentrate on winning souls for Jesus Christ. Declaring and End to Evil and "Enough" is not his call. It is God's.

You are wrong. The pope is declaring the gospel message and it is entirely appropriate for him to do so in his role as vicar of Christ, and for any other Christian to do the same for that matter.

He urged them to raise their heads and reconstruct their life through "reconciliation, forgiveness, justice and coexistence among tribal, ethnic and religious groups."

In other words, "love thy neighbor". Yes, the pope should call for an end to evil, and an end to the willful participation in outrageous, family and society destroying sin. That is the duty of his office, the historical role of his office and is perfectly consistent with the precedents set by the prophets, most notably John the Baptist, Christ Himself, and the communion of saints that followed. Preaching the gospel is always and everywhere " winning souls for Christ."

26 posted on 03/16/2008 11:59:25 AM PDT by LordBridey
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To: P-Marlowe

Oh please. He is the Pope, not a secular leader who hangs out at the UN and can “call for” armies. He’s talking about Christians, and actually did not object to our presence but personally asked Bush last year to do more to protect Christians.

This is something Bush has been notoriously reluctant to do. The problem is with the US government, and not with the Pope. Why aren’t we out there protecting Christians in Iraq? The Pope doesn’t have an army and can’t do it, and I think his request for us to do it was quite reasonable.


27 posted on 03/16/2008 12:05:06 PM PDT by livius
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To: LordBridey
You are wrong. The pope is declaring the gospel message and it is entirely appropriate for him to do so in his role as vicar of Christ, and for any other Christian to do the same for that matter.

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

Jesus Christ (Matthew 26: 18-20)

___________________________________________

"Enough with the slaughters. Enough with the violence. Enough with the hatred in Iraq!"

Pope Benedict XVI

____________________________________________

I may have lost something in translation there....but the two are not the same.

Preaching the gospel is always and everywhere " winning souls for Christ."

Where, anywhere....did the Pope "preach the Gospel" in this particular homily? The Gospel is that Christ died for our sins, and through acceptance of Him and belief in Christ we are saved from Hell itself.

Where did the Pope mention this in this particular sermon? He didn't. He gave an editorial.

"At the same time, I make an appeal to the Iraqi people, who for the past five years have borne the consequences of a war that provoked the breakup of their civil and social life," Benedict said.

I didn't see anything about urging the Iraqi people, or Muslims in general, to turn to Christ. Now that would take courage. He didn't do it.

Don't get me wrong - I think he is a marked improvement from Pope John Paul II. He is much more conservative overall.

28 posted on 03/16/2008 1:10:19 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: sitetest; big'ol_freeper
For the sake of accuracy, there were a few priests who were genuinely pedophilic, assaulting children as young as six years of age.

More than "a few."

Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests.

Report

The tragedy of the Church was its moving around priests, ignoring sexual abuse victims and their families, and covering up for abuser for decades.

This is all in court records. Shall I post them for you?

I knew Father Tom Doyle for years - and spoke to this issue personally with him many, many times.


29 posted on 03/16/2008 1:31:11 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: sitetest
Oh, and by the way, this is just one instance:

At least 789 children and probably more than 1,000 have been sexually abused by 250 priests and other church workers in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston since 1940, according to a 16-month investigation by the Massachusetts attorney general that was made public today.

That is just one.

Now, think about this. The great majority of sexual abuse cases are not, nor have they ever, been reported.

There are literally thousands and thousands of abuse victims.

I really can't stand it when people try to minimize this tragedy with language like yours. "only a few."

30 posted on 03/16/2008 1:37:18 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: jmaroneps37
Holy Father, please stick matters of Faith and Morals.

"Morals" do not impinge on the subject of war?

Who knew?

31 posted on 03/16/2008 2:12:28 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: kellynla
First, I'm not your “son”

True: my son is rational.

Second, the only thing that will “guarantee” the cessation of Islamic terrorist attacks are Muslims.

Gee. I wish I'd thought of that....

But of course, the Muslims aren't interested in peace

Which brings us back to you and your stupid bigotry. I have no use for you.

32 posted on 03/16/2008 2:43:29 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: livius

You’re right — I didn’t notice your qualifying comment. My apologies.


33 posted on 03/16/2008 2:45:17 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: r9etb

“True: my son is rational?”

Too bad some of it didn’t rub off on you.

“stupid bigotry?”

The only “stupid bigots” are the MUSLIMS WHO ARE KILLING & MAIMING MY FELLOW MARINES!

“I wish I’d thought of that?”

Careful, you might pull a muscle.LMAO

“I have no use for you.”

The feeling’s mutual, genius.


34 posted on 03/16/2008 2:51:48 PM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: kellynla

Yes, Stupid Bigotry. That’s what I call your blanket statements about Muslims. You speak about them very, very generally. And yet — to use your chosen unit of measure — there are Iraqi Muslims who are fighting and dying alongside American Marines. Clearly Muslims are not all so bad as you would make them out to be.


35 posted on 03/16/2008 3:07:59 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: r9etb
Run along and post your personal insults elsewhere.
I gave up flame-baiters for Lent. LMAO
36 posted on 03/16/2008 3:32:31 PM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: SkyPilot
Dear SkyPilot,

Try to re-read my post before ranting further.


sitetest

37 posted on 03/16/2008 4:49:35 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: markomalley
Oh that religious leaders around the world would recognize that the US is the one force putting lives on the line in the name of peace in Iraq. If they would publicly endorse our peacemakers in the Mideast it would come quickly and effectively.

Our armed force personnel who have laid down their lives, in fact all coalition and Iraqi forces who have fallen, that the people of Iraq may come to know peace, have IMHO, followed the example of Christ of self-sacrifice that we remember so vividly this time of the year.

38 posted on 03/16/2008 4:57:32 PM PDT by elpadre
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To: sitetest
Dear sitetest,

You forget everyone can read the post trail here. That was no "rant" and you know it.

I am very disappointed in you.

39 posted on 03/16/2008 5:13:41 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: sitetest
I'll correct your original post for you - no "ranting" as you see:

For the sake of accuracy, there were a few priests thousands of priests who were genuinely pedophilic, assaulting children as young as six years of age.

40 posted on 03/16/2008 5:18:26 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: markomalley

Oh that religious leaders around the world would recognize that the US is the one force putting lives on the line in the name of peace in Iraq. If they would publicly endorse our peacemakers in the Mideast it would come quickly and effectively.

Our armed force personnel who have laid down their lives, in fact all coalition and Iraqi forces who have fallen, that the people of Iraq may come to know peace, have IMHO, followed the example of Christ of self-sacrifice that we remember so vividly this time of the year.


41 posted on 03/16/2008 7:18:12 PM PDT by elpadre
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To: SkyPilot
He gave an editorial.

That's true. Technically, his remarks would not be considered a sermon or homily as they were delivered during his Angelus address.

He urged them to raise their heads and reconstruct their life through "reconciliation, forgiveness, justice and coexistence among tribal, ethnic and religious groups."

This is the quote from the pope's remarks that I suggested were consistent with preaching the gospel, because this is indeed "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." It definitely falls under the aegis of "Love your neighbor. Love your enemy."

Interestingly enough, it echoes Gen. Petreaus's comments of last week, in which he condemned the lack of reconciliation within the Iraqi government. These words also reenforce what the cardinal told the Chaldeans at the funeral of Archbishop Rahho. They were told to not flinch from their Christian obligations and seek revenge or retribution.

Meanwhile, an entire church is being persecuted, members of his flock are being gunned down in front of their church, an archbishop is kidnapped and found dead, and some people think the pope shouldn't give his lamentations voice, but rather should focus his attention on sex abuse. My oh my.

42 posted on 03/16/2008 8:02:07 PM PDT by LordBridey
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To: SkyPilot
Dear SkyPilot,

Your difficulty is the lack of precision in what you rant.

Crimes against thousands of children were committed by thousands of priests. And often covered up by their bishops (and police officers, and prosecutors, and judges).

Some of these children were very young, a relatively small percentage were also female, and a relatively small minority of the priests committing these crimes committed them against such victims.

But over 80% of the victims were boys, and the great majority were either entering puberty or had already entered puberty.

The crime in these cases wasn't pedophilia but rather ephebophilia, and in particular, homosexual ephebophilia.

There is a difference between these crimes.

That you miss the difference allows the bishops to get away with their sleight of hand. They've conned folks like you into thinking this was primarily a problem of pedophile priests. That was a component, but not the vastly larger component.

The vastly larger component was the admission of homosexual men into the priesthood in large numbers, permitting the emergence of a homosexual culture within seminaries and within the priesthood. Apparently, ephebophilia is a rampant disorder of the homosexual culture - preying on young men, and boys-becoming-men is one of their special sicknesses.

But to admit that the problem was largely one of homosexual ephebophilia would be to admit that the problem was permitting homosexual men into the priesthood in the first place. Over time, I've come to the conclusion that a significant number of our bishops are likely homosexuals themselves. Thus, the desire to hide the true nature of the crime, as it would leave them defenseless against their own consciences.

“I am very disappointed in you.”

Oh my. What shall I do.


sitetest

43 posted on 03/16/2008 8:14:03 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: All
FWIW, here are the Holy Father's comments in their original context:
At the end of this solemn celebration in which we have meditated on Christ's Passion, I would like to recall the late Chaldean archbishop of Mosul, Monsignor Paulos Faraj Rahho, who tragically died a few days ago. His beautiful witness of fidelity to Christ, to the Church and his people, whom he did not want to abandon despite numerous threats, moves me to cry out forcefully and with distress: Enough with the bloodshed, enough with the violence, enough with the hatred in Iraq! And at the same time I make an appeal to the Iraqi people, who for five years have endured the consequences of a war that has provoked upheaval in its civil and social life: Beloved Iraqi people, lift up your heads and let it be you yourselves who, in the first place, rebuild your national life! May reconciliation, forgiveness, justice and respect for the civil coexistence of tribes, ethnic groups and religious groups be the fraternal way to peace in the name of God!

44 posted on 03/17/2008 2:14:04 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: sitetest
Thank you for your response. I am surprised, and encouraged, that you addressed the problem more honestly than I had hoped.

The homosexual problem of the priesthood is as you say - and unfortunately it still has not been properly addressed. So, are we to debate the crime of "pedophila" versus " ephebophilia?"

In either case, by the law - these were children. That is clear, and the crimes remain. Is a 7 year boy old more of a victim of rape by a priest than a 11 or 13 year old boy?

Does this age difference somehow lessen the impact of this enormous crime?

I realize that some homosexual men (priests included) favored pre-teen or early teen boys (and in very rare instances girls).

The number of criminal priests still numbered in the thousands. But I can see your point that the vast majority preyed upon boys on the verge of, or in the stages of, puberty.

So - where are we? We are still faced with a tragedy of vast dimension. Moreover, the church has paid billions, many lives were shattered, many victims or their families committed suicide.

It appears Satan is having a field day.

Thank you for your response and clarification. I realize now you understand this problem better than I imagined.

45 posted on 03/17/2008 3:10:17 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: markomalley
here are the Holy Father's comments

“And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven.”

- Matthew 23:9

46 posted on 03/17/2008 3:11:19 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot

So I assume, then, that you address(ed) your paternal parent as “Frank” or “George”

Take the crap you’re spewing someplace else...


47 posted on 03/17/2008 3:37:26 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: SkyPilot
Dear SkyPilot,

“So, are we to debate the crime of ‘pedophila’ versus ‘ephebophilia?’”

Adamantly.

“In either case, by the law - these were children. That is clear, and the crimes remain. Is a 7 year boy old more of a victim of rape by a priest than a 11 or 13 year old boy?”

There are differences between sex acts with seven year olds and sex acts with seventeen year olds. But that's not the point.

“Does this age difference somehow lessen the impact of this enormous crime?”

Of course, in some ways. If you knew of a 25 year old man having a “consensual” sexual relationship with a 16 year old girl, you would judge that differently than if he were having sex with a six year old girl.

But again, that misses the point.

“So - where are we?”

Well, first, it would be nice if folks got the facts straight. Most folks have at least some of the facts confused. The bishops, for example, view this as a scandal of pedophile priests, when truly, it was a scandal of homosexual priests.

Most folks make that same mistake.

Also, most folks think that the Church did nothing about this until they were forced to by exposure in the early 2000s. That's also untrue. The Church knew what was going on, from the top levels, by the early 1980s. Although the Church didn't seem to act strongly enough or quickly enough to suit Fr. Daley, the fact is that the Church DID start acting at that time, the problem peaked in the 1980s, and had declined over 90% by the mid-1990s. All without the scandals, the headlines, or any help from secular sources.

The Church took actions to reduce the incidence of abuse by priests, and over the course of a little more than a decade, its actions reduced the incidence by over 90%. That's not nothing.

Another error that nearly everyone makes is to think that the Church conspired apart from the rest of society to cover this all up.

That's a brazen lie. The Church kept these cases quiet at the suggestion of the mental health professionals involved, often at the behest of the families of the victims, and often at the request and with the assistance of the secular authorities.

Many evil things were done. Many of them were done out of evil intentions, sometimes by genuinely bad persons, but many, too, out of honest intentions but by stupid and ignorant persons who had lost their way. Especially bishops.

“We are still faced with a tragedy of vast dimension.”

The underlying tragedy - the abuse of children - was great, but the dimension was somewhat limited. The Jay report estimates approximately 10,000 victims and 4,000 perpetrators over the course of 50 years.

10,000 victims is a lot, especially to each victim. And 4,000 priests represents fully 4% of the entire priesthood in the United States during that time.

But 10,000 is out of many millions, and 4% still leaves 96% who did not commit these horrible crimes.

I don't see similar rage in the media for the hundreds of thousands of public school children who are sexually molested EVERY SINGLE YEAR by public school teachers and workers, numbering in the tens of thousands or perhaps even a hundred thousand or more EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Yet the dimension of the tragedy exceeds this one by an order of magnitude or two. Or three. I don't see anyone trying to sue the public schools - and their supervising government structures - for tens of billions or hundreds of billions, or even trillions of dollars, as they've sued the Catholic Church. I don't see concomitant loss of "faith" in public schools.

In fact, most of the people I see carrying on the loudest about the evils of the Catholic Church in regard to this scandal, I don't see them crusading loudly and virulently against the evils of the public schools of the United States. Occasionally, I'll see a token acknowledgment that there may be a problem there, but often, I actually see denial on the part of the Church's attackers.

So forgive me if, while acknowledging the faults, errors, and crimes of our bishops and some of our priests, I hold a cynical view of those who are otherwise critics of the Church. I do not believe the critics are of good faith.

In perspective, properly viewed, with the actual facts, rather than the distorted stories promoted by the media, with the often complicit, guilty silence of the hierarchy, it was a terrible and serious problem, but not one, ultimately of “vast dimension,” and not one that should have undermined faith in the Church.

“It appears Satan is having a field day.”

Indeed, but not principally off the actual facts of what happened, but off the distortions, misunderstandings, and often deliberate misrepresentations of the truth of things, using the lies about what happened to undermine the Church and faith in her.

That's why it's important to make accurate distinctions, to tell the truth accurately and carefully, to say what's what, and to say what's not what.


sitetest

48 posted on 03/17/2008 6:56:40 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: SkyPilot
I didn't see anything about urging the Iraqi people, or Muslims in general, to turn to Christ.

Perhaps you have not heard about his initiative to have a dialogue with Muslims. This is part of an effort to encourage them to turn to Christ. He doesn't have to give a litany of everything he is trying to accomplish at every public Angelus prayer. He is far wiser and more subtle than you give him credit for.

Now that would take courage.

When the MSM and their radical Muslim friends took a quote completely out of context from a lecture he gave and twisted the meaning and intent of his talk he stood by what he said. Even in the face of churches being damaged and a nun being murdered. During his trip to Turkey he refused, against the advice of his security detail, to wear a bulletproof vest. That is courage, fortitude and faith.

49 posted on 03/17/2008 7:53:41 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: markomalley
Thank you. One post, out of 44, that's actually worth something.
50 posted on 03/17/2008 8:04:00 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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