Posted on 03/20/2008 2:40:13 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012
Dear Friend of Israel,
Tomorrow an important Jewish holiday and an important Christian holiday
coincide. As Christians solemnly observe Good Friday - and anticipate
Easter, the most joyous day in the Christian year - Jews will be
celebrating Purim, which begins tonight at sundown.
(Excerpt) Read more at ifcj.org ...
ping
Thanks for the ping....my FRiend. I’ve always enjoyed the Book of Esther. Haman also reminds me of quite a few folks I have run into! LOL
Which one will you celebrate?
Which one will you celebrate?
The one which is called out in the Holy Word of Elohim, of cause.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua
NAsbU Joshua 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve YHvH,
choose for yourselves today whom you will serve:
whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River,
or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living;
but as for me and my house, we will serve YHvH."
Happy Purim, and happy Easter to those of my Sunday brethren who are so eager to celebrate the Resurrection that you're doing it a month early this year. ;^)
I don't pick date on which the holiday falls, I just celebrate it.
I choose to celebrate the death and resurrection of Christ with my fellow Christians on the day that most Christians have chosen to celebrate it. That is FELLOWSHIP! Some might choose to separate themselves from the rest of the flock in order to make a point. I choose not to.
I would have no qualms about celebrating it again a month from now with your congregation. However some of the Messianic Christians I have seen on this forum would categorically REFUSE to celebrate the Ressurrection of Jesus at all and instead would only celebrate the shadow (The passover feast) without celebrating the fact that the need for the passover ended on the day that Christ rose from the grave. The passover was competed. Jesus cried "IT IS FINISHED".
I'm giving you a hard time friend-to-friend, for crying out loud. Since when did Neeners have to be deadly serious about everything? That's the GRPL's job.
(Ducking into shelter before the storm of angry denunciations from the GRPL.)
Look, Marlowe, my parents still celebrate Easter. I went to my dad's Passion play last night. I think you're technically wrong about the dating, in part because of running on a solar year rather than a lunar one--and, frankly, in part because Constantine didn't want to have to do anything with the Jews. But I no more break fellowship with you about it than I break fellowship with my own father and mother.
Do you consider our fellowship to be strained just because I'm celebrating Purim this weekend and Passover next month?
Now as far as the Resurrection goes, we celebrate the Resurrection Day as HaBikkurim, the Feast of Firstfruits, when Yeshua rose as the firstfruits of the Resurrected dead (per 1Co. 15). It actually is important to us, for it serves as the down-payment on our own Resurrection, shows that God accepted the sacrifice (Isa. 53:10ff), and fulfills the types of Isaac, Joseph, and Jonah.
But if we seem to place more emphasis on the "shadow" of Passover, it is because without the sacrifice of our Passover Lamb, without His blood on the doorposts of our hearts, we would still be in bondage to the world and subject to the judgment of death. The Resurrection is dependent on the Sacrifice, not the other way around, and therefore the Sacrifice must be honored as God commanded us to honor it: "For as often as you eat this bread (the Passover matzah) and drink this cup (the wine of Passover; specifically, the Cup of Redemption which is served after the meal, cf. Luke 22:20), you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes" (1Co. 11:26).
I realize that your interpretation of those passages is different. That's fine. What I'm trying to get you to understand is why the Lord's Feasts are so important to us: In every single element, even those elements which are traditional only, we see our Lord proclaimed. And thus we keep them, not in substitution of the true Lord, but because we love Him so much that we love even the long shadow that He casts and delight to walk in that shadow.
And if, in our enthusiasm to share the things that the Lord has revealed to us and to share the joy that we have found in His commandments concerning the Appointed Times that He has set we seem a bit pushy, remember that the world sees you as being just as pushy in your enthusiasm to share the joy of the Lord that those Times point to, and be forgiving and gracious with us.
One final thing: Don't make the mistake of thinking that all Messianics are somehow united. There are a great many differences between myself and Xenia and Diego in terms of belief and practice--and in terms of diplomacy and relationship with our Sunday brethren as well. If you have a problem with them, take it up with them. Please don't take it out on me.
Your brother in Yeshua,
Mike
I came out of my chair when one poster, whom I had some respect for before, came out and basically accused Sunday Worshipers of denying Christ. He got a lot of kudos from Trinity deniers on that point. Even though I am a laid back Neener, I will not stand for that. In my opinion that person appears to have more fellowship with Jews (who actively deny Christ) than Christians who worship (on Sunday) at the foot of the cross.
I do not number you among that group. However you seem to be in the minority among the Messianics. I'm not sure if that other Messianic's attitude is a reflection of the entire Messianic movement or not. If it is, then I'm against it. If the Messianic movement is merely a calling to which God has called you and other like minded dedicated Christians, then God bless you in your pursuit.
You need to go back to that thread and read the conversation I had with him after you left; he was actually defending Messiah's Deity in a tongue-in-cheek way, but did so in a way that was widely misunderstood. He was responding to the pastor in the article who said that Christ never commanded us to keep the Sabbath. Xenia was saying, in effect, "So you don't think that the Christ who walked among us is the same Being who gave us the Sabbath in the first place?"
I understood his point; I also understood why it was misunderstood, which is why I asked him to retract the statement and apologize--not because his original statement was wrong, but because it was taken wrong. Unfortunately, hackles were already raised, everyone was convinced that everyone else was wrong, and nobody was really listening at that point. The fact that I was basically out sick for a day kept me from doing anything more than what I did.
My problem with Xenia at the moment is that he isn't willing to apologize for the inadvertent offense he caused with a poorly-worded statement (however right I think his real point was) in order to make peace.
However you seem to be in the minority among the Messianics. I'm not sure if that other Messianic's attitude is a reflection of the entire Messianic movement or not.
*sigh* One of the persistent problems that we see among Messianics is that a newfound zeal for the Torah can make our members a bit impatient with those that haven't "seen the light," so to speak. It is a common pattern for a new Messianic/Hebrew Roots person to go through a period of legalism before mellowing out and realizing that an awareness of the Torah makes us more reliant on Grace, not less, and therefore how can we show less than grace to those we disagree with?
Some, unfortunately, do fall away into one of the less savory Messianic groups out there. A few fall into Orthodox Judaism, and wind up denying the Messiah who was the whole reason they got into this in the first place. (I'm watching it happen with a young lady who used to be part of our synagogue now.)
In my case, my close ties with my traditionally Evangelical parents and their continual support in my calling probably helped in keeping me relatively balanced on the issues of Torah and grace. So did the warm support I've gotten from the Neeners as I've dealt with GRPL accusations of heresy, especially during those first few years when I was still feeling this whole thing out. Those who get resistance or rejection from their families and friends tend to go through it worse.
If the Messianic movement is merely a calling to which God has called you and other like minded dedicated Christians, then God bless you in your pursuit.
Make no mistake; I do believe that the Torah is for everyone, and in particular I would that the Church had never substituted days of its own for God's Appointed Times, for I feel that for two millennia we threw away a great blessing. I'm also dead-set against pressuring Jews to assimilate into Gentile Christianity. "You know Jesus now? Congratulations! Here, have a ham sandwich." Forcing Jews to Gentilize is as great a sin as forcing Gentiles to Judaize, and we need to recognize and repent of that.
And it is precisely because I am against forcing one to change his native culture and ethnicity for salvation and/or fellowship that I am against breaking fellowship with my Sunday brethren. Ultimately, we serve the same Lord, and the disagreements we have over the interpretation of certain passages in the New Testament pales in comparison to the enmity we face together in the world.
Thank you as always for your love and support, my friend. God bless, and shalom.
I most heartily agree with you.
Have a Blessed Purim and a joyous Easter.
He is Risen.
I have yet to understand the inadvertent offense. Can you bring clarity to this supposed offense.
Thanks for the ping while you were talking behind my back.
b'SHEM Yah'shua
I have made several observations about the general trend in a Messianic's growth and about some of the pitfalls that our group faces; I very pointedly did not refer to anyone in particular by name in that segment, because I was not trying to single you out--and the fact that I also mentioned those who go into Orthodox Judaism, which neither you nor Diego are likely to do, should tell you that I wasn't referring directly to you.
However, if you feel that I've been duplicitous in my dealings here or that I've misrepresented you or anyone else, I apologize for what I have done to lead to that impression.
The fact is that I'm finding both of you to be stiff-necked at the moment, and I'm trying on both ends to make you see the other's POV. You considered my call for taking steps to reconcile on the other thread and determined that it did not fit with the spirit within you. When a person decides that the Spirit has told them something, there's really no more room for discourse, so I let it drop.
In Marlowe's case, since he has not claimed Spiritual authority for his actions, but was open to continued discussion, I continued discussing the matter with him and smoothing things over with him. Why? Because he is my friend, has been for many years, and has defended me against those of our Sunday brethren who have accused me of heresy for my walk in the past. There is absolutely zero reason outside of pride to offend such a friend and brother into enmity towards our camp by careless words--and if you are going to do so, refusing to even back up and say, "Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you and that wasn't what I meant; here's what I meant to say . . ." then you are outright refusing to be a good ambassador for the Gospel and the Torah.
I will not help anyone build back up the walls between us. My calling is to tear them down.
Shalom.
PM>I came out of my chair when one poster, whom I had some respect for before, came out and basically accused Sunday Worshipers of denying Christ.
B>You need to go back to that thread and read the conversation I had with him after you left; he was actually defending Messiah's Deity in a tongue-in-cheek way, but did so in a way that was widely misunderstood. He was responding to the pastor in the article who said that Christ never commanded us to keep the Sabbath. Xenia was saying, in effect, "So you don't think that the Christ who walked among us is the same Being who gave us the Sabbath in the first place?" ................ I will not help anyone build back up the walls between us. My calling is to tear them down.
Sorry; I have yet to understand the inadvertent offense. I would like to bring some clarity to this supposed offense. Jesus said so in Peter's Gospel known as Mark He gave us the Shabbat in Genesis. It was celebrated through all the Bible. It was changed in the Fourth Century by Constantine. When someone states that That is the statement that was made by Greg Laurie. I would think if some believed that Jesus is a A clear reading of the Gospels show Jesus teaching Laurie is somehow twisting the words of Jesus I hope this brings some clarity to the discussion. Thanks for the ping while both of you were talking behind my back.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
There is only One G-d.
Later YHvH made Shabbat a permanent and forever celebration.
"Jesus never taught anyone to keep the Sabbath".
Greg Laurie's statement on Sabbath
that is, on it's face a false statement.
member of the Godhead, and He never changed the Shabbat,
Laurie is teaching some other gospel.
how to celebrate the Shabbat. What Jesus is doing
is rebuking the then Religious Leaders who have replaced
YHvH's commands with man-made Traditions for the
celebration of Shabbat.
to say He is changing the "day of rest" from the day
He(YHvH) commanded to Sunday. Another way to look at
Laurie's words would be that he, Laurie, is teaching
that Jesus is someone other than a member of the Godhead.
If you had said that in that way from the beginning, then I probably would not have blown my stack. While Greg Laurie might be wrong in regard to his opinion on the Sabbath, I think that your prior statement previously was deliberately inflammatory. I must say that for whatever theological faults Greg Laurie might have, I suspect that the Lord has used him for his glory to accomplish more than you, or I, or Buggman, will ever be able to accomplish and what is left of our lifetimes.
That being said, show me anywhere in the Scripture where a day called "Saturday" was designated as the eternal and unchanging day of the Sabbath.
With all respect Marlowe, are you seriously proposing that the day we call Saturday, which has been universally acknowledged by both Jews and Christians to be the seventh day of the week, isn’t really the seventh day of the week?
It might end a lot of animosity between Messianics and the rest of Christianity.
FWIW I do not number the Trinity deniers of the COG among the rest of Christianity. They can keep worshiping on Saturn's day. I will continue to worship on the Son's Day.
We are called to be peacemakers insofar as we can, but if we were supposed to sacrifice fact and truth on the altar of peace, Christianity would never have been born.
Unless you have some really compelling evidence that both the Jews and the Christians screwed up their weekly count--for there was never any debate about which was the seventh day and which the first, just on which should be honored by rest and a special call to worship--then frankly you're just flailing around. And that's not like you, my friend; you've always been a calm, rational pursuer of the truth.
They can keep worshiping on Saturn's day. I will continue to worship on the Son's Day.
Sunday refers to the worship of the Sun in the sky, not the Son of Man, just as the other days are called Moon-day, Tyr's-day, Woden's-day, Thor's-day, Frey's-day, and Saturn-day.
But it was the seventh day, not the first, that the Almighty declared holy--special--in honor of the completion of His Creation. The modern names of the days are irrelevant to what the Bible says on the matter.
Shalom.
Lets get down to brass tacks. I know you are much more moderate than some of the other Messianics or the COG crowd or the 7th Day Adventists and all the other sects which proclaim that Christians are required to worship on Saturday. I consider this issue as peripheral. I choose not to judge any man in which day he chooses to recognize the Lord and to gather for fellowship, etc. Frankly, if you feel led to worship on Saturday, then I am more than happy for you. In fact I believe it would be wrong for YOU to violate the Sabbath inasmuch as you feel called to treat Saturday as the Sabbath and to refrain from eating of certain meats or leavened bread or whatever other ritual or tradition that the Nation of Israel was obligated as part of their covenant with the Lord to keep. If that is your calling, then praise God.
The fact of the matter is that if you and Xenia are correct and that the whole of Christianity has been in violation of the commandment of the Sabbath for 2000 years and that God requires us to keep the Sabbath as Gentile Christians, then the whole of Christianity is lost.
If in fact keeping a Saturday sabbath is not essential to our being saved, or to our sanctification or our justification before God, then your whole legalistic theology crumbles to the ground. On the other hand if it is essential to our salvation, then salvation is no longer of grace but salvation is by works.
Jesus summed up the ten commandments by dropping them into two. Love God with all your heart and soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Now, unless you are willing to state categorically that all of us Sunday worshipers are on the fast track to hell, then you are going to have to accept the idea that maybe the Saturday Sabbath requirement is a little more flexible than you have imagined. If keeping a Saturday Sabbath is a necessary soteriological ritual, then the whole of Christianity for the last 2000 years will end up in hell.
I have been called to worship on Sunday. I was saved in a Church which had Sunday worship.
I would be willing to bet my house (along with the mortgage) that both you and Xenia St were born again into churches that met and worshiped on Sunday; that somewhere along the line, after you had experienced the grace of God, you separated yourself from the fellowship of those Christians that brought you to the foot of the cross.
Now, unless you are willing to state that you were not born again until you became a Messianic Christian, then I think maybe you don't think this Saturday Sabbath is all that necessary or important either.
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