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My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
Right Reason ^ | May 17, 2007 | Robert Koons

Posted on 03/20/2008 8:55:06 PM PDT by annalex

My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church

Several weeks ago, I learned through a mutual friend that Frank Beckwith was intending to return to the Roman Catholic Church. At the same time, Frank learned that I myself have been moving in the direction of Rome for the last several years. I am very pleased to be able to announce that I intend to be received into the Church on May 26th, at St. Louis King of France parish in Austin.  My own story is quite different from Frank’s, although our reasons for entering the Church of Rome are strikingly parallel.

I was baptized through the Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod, and I have been an active member of the church body ever since. As a Lutheran, I’ve never thought of myself as “Protestant”, nor have I ever embraced the kind of extreme sola-scripturism that has been much in evidence in responses to Frank’s announcement. I always recognized that the Scriptures are themselves the foundation of, and very much a part of, a divine Tradition. Although I believed that only the Scriptures were infallible, I nonetheless assigned great weight to the ‘rule of faith’ established by the continuous tradition of teaching by the Church, and as reflected in the writings of the Fathers and the decrees of Councils. Insofar as I accepted a form of ‘sola scriptura’, it took the form of insisting that all doctrines must have their source in the Scriptures as interpreted by the Church, or in the universal practices and teaching of the early church. This is the only sort of “sola scriptura” principle that can hold up to logical scrutiny, since the Scriptures themselves provide no definition of the canon and no clear statement of any sola-scriptura principle (both of these can be found only in the Fathers and Councils). Extreme sola-scripturism is, given these facts, self-refuting.

How, then, could I have remained Lutheran? I did so because I believed that the late medieval church (in the form of both the Scotists and the nominalists like Ockham and Biel) had distorted the doctrine of salvation or “justification”, embracing a kind of “Pelagian” error: that is, the notion that human beings can save themselves through the exercise of unaided human reason and will. I still believe this to be so (as do many, if not most, contemporary Roman Catholic theologians). I also believed that the Church erred in its brusque condemnation of Luther’s early protests (again, a view I still hold), and that the Council of Trent solidified a kind of apostasy from the true faith (this is where my current view departs from my former one). I believed that the teachings of the church popularly known as “Lutheran” or “Evangelical”, as codified in the sixteenth century Book of Concord, constituted the defining characteristic of the one Catholic Church in its fullness, in continuity on all essentials with the teachings of the Church from the first century until at least the twelfth. The logic of my position was a simple one: the modern Roman Church clearly embraced an erroneous doctrine of justification, which nullified its otherwise strong historical claim to continuity with the apostles (especially on the matter of ecclesiology, the theory of the Church), depriving modern Christians of any good reason to embrace late-medieval and modern developments in Roman Catholic doctrine (including the immaculate conception and papal infallibility).

Those of you who know more about theology and the history of theology than I did then can easily see how untenable a position I held (although I think this untenable position is one still held by many, if not most, thoughtful Lutherans and Reformed Christians).  My confidence in this position was shaken by three blows: (1) new scholarship (primarily by Protestants) on Paul’s epistles, which raised profound doubts about the correctness of Martin Luther’s and Phillip Melanchthon’s excessively individualistic and existentialist reading of Paul’s teaching on justification by faith, (2) the fruits of Lutheran/Roman Catholic dialogue on justification, expressed most fully in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification in 1997, that greatly clarified for me the subtlety of the doctrinal differences between the two bodies, and (3) a more thorough exposure to the writings of the early Church fathers, especially those considered most “evangelical”: Chrysostom, Ambrose, and (above all) Augustine of Hippo. I began to realize that many Lutheran and Protestant polemicists have been guilty of two fallacies: a straw-man version of contemporary Roman Catholic teaching, and a cherry-picking of quotations from the Fathers, ignoring the undeniable contradiction between the teachings of those Fathers, taken as a whole, and the one-sided version of the faith-alone doctrine on justification embraced by the second generation of the Reformation (especially Martin Chemnitz). The Joint Declaration and the recent Catechism of the Catholic Church aided me in giving a closer and more charitable reading to the anathemas of the Council of Trent (which I still believe to be have been written in an unprofitably provocative way).

This is a very brief summary of the considerations that led to my theological transformation. I have available a set of private notes that began as a purely intellectual exercise: an attempt to exorcise my doubts about Lutheranism by putting them to paper and exposing them to critique (both on my part and on that of others). As it turned out, the more I wrote, the more reasons I found for changing my outlook. The notes can be downloaded HERE.

Bear in mind that I am no professional theologian, and I claim no special authority for my conclusions. I welcome feedback to these notes, but I would ask that my readers take a look first at John Henry Newman’s book, An Essay on the Development of Doctrine (1845). Newman’s book is essential background reading for my notes, because he provides the decisive rebuttal to the argument that the supremacy of the Pope and other contemporary, distinctively Roman Catholic doctrines constitute objectionable “innovations”. Newman convincingly argues that the recognition of genuine development in Christian doctrine is inescapable, as anyone who knows the history of the doctrines of the Trinity and the two natures of Christ must recognize.

One more thing about my notes: they were written with an audience of one (myself) in mind.  In writing them, I gave no thought to being diplomatic or irenic. My only point was to try to sort out which of the two traditions was more likely to be the fullest expression of the Gospel. They are deliberately one-sided: there is much that I could have said about the virtues of the Lutheran tradition and the need for the reformation of the 16th century Church not included here.

Please bear in mind also the distinction between the reality of justification and our theological theories about that reality. As a Roman Catholic, I will trust no less in Jesus as my Savior, nor more in my own works, than I have as a Lutheran. I’m certainly fallible and thus capable of trading in a better theory of justification for a worse one, but I urge my Protestant brethren to remember, before making any judgments about the state of my soul, that sinners are justified by trusting in Jesus and not by believing a theory of justification.

Posted by Robert Koons on May 17, 2007 10:05 PM


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
I have a friend, Missionary Baptist, who thinks just because she's born again is going straight to heaven at her death. She doesn't go to Church, or anything yet she thinks she's a shoe in.

I'm a daily Mass attendant and only PRAY I get to heaven after Purgatory!

41 posted on 03/21/2008 8:22:40 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: Freedom'sWorthIt
Are there others?

Of course there are. Do a search on "persevere" or "endure" and you will find numerous calls to "endure to the end" in order to be saved. St. Paul likens a Christian life to an athletic event when we struggle to cross the finish line. More importantly, when Jesus is asked directly what one needs to do in order to be saved His response is all in terms of what to do, cumlinating in donating all that one has and follow Christ. The justification of the elect and the damnation of the reprobate in Matthew 25 is also in terms of works of love that they did or did not do, and, of course, the spirit of charity is the central ethical exhortation of the Gospel in the Sermon on the Mount.

There are passages that seem to point to the salvation as a one time event, but those that do tend to either speak of the act of redemption on the Cross, which of course occurred in the past for all, or baptism or a conversion to Christ; they do not exclude the necessity of future works of love and avoidance of sin.

43 posted on 03/21/2008 9:44:50 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
My Journey of Faith [Marco Fallon]
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church [Robert Koons]
Thousands in U.S. to Join (Catholic) Church - Many Feel They Have Found a Home
TURN ABOUT (Carl Olson, former Evangelical and Monday's guest on EWTN's Journey Home)
Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for the Catholic Church [Michael Cumbie]

All Roads Lead To Rome (A Southern Baptist's Journey into the Catholic Church)[John David Young]
Allen Hunt, Methodist Minister ...Journeys Home (Catholic, Re: Real Presence)
The Challenges and Graces of Conversion [Chris Findley]
An Open Letter...from Bishop John Lipscomb [Another TEC Bishop Goes Papist]
Unlocking the Convert's Heart [Marcus Grodi]

His Open Arms Welcomed Me [ Paul Thigpen}
Why I'm Catholic (Sola Scriptura leads atheist to Catholic Church)
From Calvinist to Catholic (another powerful conversion story) Rodney Beason
Good-bye To All That (Another Episcopalian gets ready to swim the Tiber)
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church

Bishop Steenson’s Statement to the House [of Bishops: Episcopal (TEC) to Catholic]
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson Will Become a Roman Catholic
Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
Pavarotti returns to the Catholic faith before dying

Searching For Authority (A Methodist minister finds himself surprised by Truth!)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope(Al Kresta)
The Hail Mary of a Protestant (A true story)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar(Al Kresta)

Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts (Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Rusty Tisdale (former Pentecostal)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness(Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
THE ORTHODOX REVIVAL IN RUSSIA

Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)
12 Reasons I Joined the Catholic Church
Conversion Story - Tom Hunt
The Tide Is Turning Toward Catholicism: The Converts

John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]

From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
Why Converts Choose Catholicism

From Calvinist to Catholic
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
laetare (commentary on ordination of married Anglican convert to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles) Father Bill Lowe
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)

Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
He Was an Evangelical Christian Until He Read Aquinas [Rob Evans]

The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
Interview with Roy Schoeman - A Jewish Convert

44 posted on 03/21/2008 11:15:46 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Quester

What the Apostles did was not a moment of weakness. They saw the Living Christ. They saw his many miracles, indeed, they saw Him as The Savior in the flesh. Yet, they still denied Him and came back to spread the Gospel. Christ’s Mercy is is Divine and beyond our comprehension. But we shold know that it is there for us.

“What the disciples did was to flee when they saw their leader facing death. Note that the scripture says that the sheep are scattered, ... not lost. “

I don’t think anything you’ve posted is contrary to what I’ve posted. My words never mentioned being lost, they state that Peter and the Apostles denied Christ, which they did. I do stress that fleeing is to soft a word and denying Christ, as he foretold, was more accurate.

Again, this points more to his Divine Mercy, and our human imperfection. The fact that the very Apostles who knew and saw His Divinity in the first person, should give us hope for our salvation.


45 posted on 03/22/2008 6:33:46 AM PDT by rbmillerjr ("bigger government means constricting freedom"....................RWR)
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To: rbmillerjr
“What the disciples did was to flee when they saw their leader facing death. Note that the scripture says that the sheep are scattered, ... not lost. “

I don’t think anything you’ve posted is contrary to what I’ve posted. My words never mentioned being lost, they state that Peter and the Apostles denied Christ, which they did. I do stress that fleeing is to soft a word and denying Christ, as he foretold, was more accurate.


I think that we should be very clear here ... and not muddy the waters.

Jesus predicted that the "sheep would be scattered" ... and ... that Peter would deny Him.

And that's exactly what the scriptures testify to.

Only Peter denied knowing Christ ... the other disciples fled His passion ... just as He said that they would. They did not deny Him.

46 posted on 03/22/2008 7:20:44 AM PDT by Quester
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To: Quester

“Only Peter denied knowing Christ ... the other disciples fled His passion ... just as He said that they would. They did not deny Him.”

Reflect on this. If Christ comes here on earth for you to worship and follow, and you run away from Him - do you not deny Him?


47 posted on 03/22/2008 7:47:04 AM PDT by rbmillerjr ("bigger government means constricting freedom"....................RWR)
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To: Ann Archy

Hello. Please give me the scriptural basis for the belief in purgatory. I believe that the Catholic Church has said that the Bible is THE WORD OF GOD - do you believe that?

The Bible, being the WORD OF GOD, is the authority for everything we believe, is it not?


48 posted on 03/22/2008 9:32:50 AM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: sandyeggo

Hello. My friend found me by coming to a Care group that meets in the church I am attending....which reaches out to all who are grieving or have lost loved ones. We have done several Bible studies in our group that have touched her and myself with the “dunamis” (power of the Gospel) of God, notably one recently on the book of Daniel.

She and I have become friends because we share our love for the Lord Jesus Christ and our dependence on Him and on His Word for our daily lives and in prayer for our loved ones....and, yes, for the great and wonderful promises that are made to all who belong to Him - found in His Word.

I do not and will not ever criticize the Catholic church’s beliefs. I encourage her to go to church - wherever she chooses - and am glad when she can attend her Catholic church with her Catholic friends. I am also glad when she can attend with me to my protestant church.

She doesn’t criticize mine and I do not criticize hers.

She tells me about her services and I tell her about mine.

It was in the conversation about her church service (mass) last Sunday that she told me about this statement by her priest - that greatly troubled HER. She has been asking her Catholic friends and family about it and so I decided to come here and ask my(hopefully) friends here who are Catholics about it.

Yes she has been a lifelong Catholic as are her family members. It has been her choice to be nourished and helped by the Christian ministries she watches and listens to and reads (devotional books) these past two years (before I knew her).

It is the Bible, the Word of God, to which we both go for answers because we both firmly believe that “man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”


49 posted on 03/22/2008 9:45:03 AM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: rbmillerjr
Reflect on this. If Christ comes here on earth for you to worship and follow, and you run away from Him - do you not deny Him?

The disciples were not running from Christ ... they were fleeing the persecution He was suffering.

They weren't living up to their calling, ... but they weren't changing their allegiance (to Him).

50 posted on 03/22/2008 10:05:41 AM PDT by Quester
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To: annalex; sandyeggo; Salvation; Ann Archy
Yes I have read the passages about "but those who endure to the end will be saved". And I want to know more about them.

But here are some other passages that to me seem to make clear that we cannot add anything to what Christ has done in order to achieve our eternal life or to be cleansed enough to go to heaven.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph. 2:8-9)

"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy" (Titus 3:5)

God "has saved us and called us to a holy life not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace" (2 Tim. 1:8-9);

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works" (Romans 11:6)

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him" (Romans 5:9)

"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace" (Eph. 1:7)

"For God was pleased...to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col. 1:19-20)

"We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy"***. (Hebrews 10:10-14)


***That passage indicates that even our sanctification, the living out of our salvation daily in Holy Living - is not of ourselves but of God's doing...we are "being made Holy" - by His power and grace in our lives ....and, yes, by our cooperation in yielding to HIS WILL daily, moment by moment.

And, yes, Paul explains that our lives are like a race...but near the end of his life in that passage where he says he has run his race, fought his fight....here's what he says:

"6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing."......

Here Paul says there is a crown of righteousness laid up for him (he did not lay it up it was laid up (by someone else) for him....which the Lord Jesus will give him,Paul, on that DAY = (and not just to him but to all who have loved Christ's appearing....)...not to all who have done all the things that some say must be done in order to gain heaven's entry...

And what about the Gospel of John almost all of Chapter 3?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

I apologize for the long post - but have to go do several errands - will check back later tonight. Thanks for the discussion. God bless all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior, Redeemer, and King! And may God lead any who are thirsting after the Living Water to find Him - soon!

51 posted on 03/22/2008 10:27:23 AM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: Quester

“They weren’t living up to their calling, ... but they weren’t changing their allegiance (to Him).”

I agree.


52 posted on 03/22/2008 10:27:36 AM PDT by rbmillerjr ("bigger government means constricting freedom"....................RWR)
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt

“Hello. Please give me the scriptural basis for the belief in purgatory. I believe that the Catholic Church has said that the Bible is THE WORD OF GOD - do you believe that?

The Bible, being the WORD OF GOD, is the authority for everything we believe, is it not?”

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is the authority for what we believe. To Catholics this means the Holy Bible and the Tradition of the Church that Christ set up with instructions to Peter and the Apostles.


53 posted on 03/22/2008 10:30:58 AM PDT by rbmillerjr ("bigger government means constricting freedom"....................RWR)
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt; Ann Archy
The Holy Scripture is not the authority for everything we believe. It is a part fo the authority of the Christ-given Church, -- which the scripture itself teaches. See On Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition for detailed argumentation.

Regarding the Purgatory, it is indeed a belief that the Catholic Church developed after the scripture was written, and even after the Orthodox sister Church separated. The question is, does it contradict the scripture?

The Orthodox have a similar belief in that the soul progresses through some trials after death, if it is lucky enough to be destined to Heaven. So their belief -- important here because that is the belief of the early Church -- is not in contradiction to ours. They would say that our belief is too concrete and too elaborate. They would point out some popular pieties that attach specifically a torment of fire, of certain length, to the idea. But on that, they miss the point, since the popular image of the devil tormenting the soul by fire till it is released to heaven is not taught by the Church. What is taught, is that if the person dies in the state of sanctifying grace, and goes to heaven, then it will often experience suffering as a consequence of the sin that he had been forgiven by Christ. The proper analogy is the pain that a cancer patient experiences after the tumor has been surgically removed.

The scripture does have indirect support for both the idea of the dead requiring our prayer and purgatory. In the book of Macabees we read of prayers for the dead (Luther removed the book from the Canon of scripture for that very reason). In 1 Corinthians chapter 3 we read of the judgement of a soul based on the quality of the works done during the lifetime. The judgement involves purification "as if by fire". The soul itself ends up saved. This, we think, is pretty good prooftext for Purgatory.

54 posted on 03/22/2008 11:59:36 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
we cannot add anything to what Christ has done in order to achieve our eternal life or to be cleansed enough to go to heaven.

We do believe that we are (being) saved through grace alone -- through the love of Christ to us that culminated in His sacrifice of Calvary. We do not believe that merely proclaiming our faith, and without good works, that is sacrificial work of love, we can get to heaven and be saved. Like I said before, there are many passages that point out that we owe it all to Christ, and that it is through our spiritual rebirth that we are set on our way to salvation.

We do believe that if one is baptized and commits no sin and then dies, then he goes to heaven -- is saved. But this is not typically all that happens. Most people sin and repent and work on their faith, and if that work of theirs endure, then they will be saved. He who endureth to the end he shall be saved.

There is one passage that specifically says that we can add our own suffering to the suffering of Christ. It is Colossians (often mistranslated in Protestant bibles) "[I] rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" (Col 1:24). Our suffering builds up Christ's Church and is still "wanting". Note also that according to this passage one does not have to suffer for his own sins, he can in an act of heroic virtue offer up his suffering for the Church as a whole, -- the very concept of sainthood.

Now, which of these passages you quoted, do you think, contradicts what I just said? I think, none does, but if any still give you pause, let's drill down on one or two starting Monday, because I will be busy this holiday.

Thank you for your sincere questions, I appreciate them. This is why I posted this thread.

55 posted on 03/22/2008 12:14:40 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt

After Jesus’s death, SOULS came out of their GRAVES.....just WHERE do you think these souls were til Jesus died for them??? In Purgatory is my belief because Jesus descended there to retrieve the good souls that had died BEFORE Jesus had come into the world and to take them to heaven with him......where do you think all the good souls that were UNBELIEVERS in JESUS went?


56 posted on 03/22/2008 1:41:48 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: rbmillerjr

Thanks for that added information.

I guess that is the chief delineation between Catholic and Protestant Christians....

The Tradition in addition to the Bible.


57 posted on 03/22/2008 5:49:55 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: annalex

Thanks for the added information. It is helpful.

Regarding purgatory....yes, I realize there is a difference between Catholics and Protestants about what constitutes the “Bible” in that Catholics accept the Apocrypha but Protestants do not. That’s a long discussion in and of itself.

But I think you would agree that a Protestant Christian would need to find significant support in the Bible - that is the canon of scripture without the Apocryphal books - for such a significant tenet of the Faith.

That scripture you mentioned - from 1 Corinthians 3 is a very important one, I agree totally. But it seems that that passage is about specifically the work of anyone striving to help in the work of God that goes on top of the foundation of the Gospel/of the church- which is that of Jesus Christ.

Should a person build upon that foundation that person’s work will be judged on “that Day” (the Day of Jesus Christ - at His appearng - not during this time before His appearing, His judgement of the saints)....then that persons works may be burned up and he will suffer loss on that day.

But He himself will be saved —— but as if by fire.

In other words, there is clearly an eternal value being placed on our work, especially if our work is that of building on the foundation of Jesus Christ - for the building up of the Church. Yet our work has nothing to do with our salvation other than to confirm what Jesus Christ has already done for us.

Also note the ending verses of this passage. Don’t they say that if we belong to Jesus Christ - we are a HOLY TEMPLE - NOW. We are seen by God as HOLY - NOW. Present tense.

We do not make ourselves Holy by doing certain things....it indicates God declares US HOLY NOW - the moment we have been born of the Spirit, in which the Spirit comes to dwell in us - we are declared HOLY. In God’s eyes - WE ARE SEEN AS HOLY. God is working that Holiness into our lives and we are working it OUT in the world. But we are immediately seen by Him as HOLY - in the NOW not waiting for that to be true in the future.

Doesn’t this passage which you cite indicate a present Holiness for all who belong to Jesus Christ?

1 Corinthians 3:

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Should one build the Church of Jesus Christ, his/her work shall be Judged by Jesus Christ - on that Day - to be approved by Him —— then the person who built will receive a reward in heaven for that work. But that is NOT SALVATION EARNING WORK. It is Church building work according to this scripture.

If that church building work is not deemed approved by Jesus Christ - then THAT WORK - not the person - will be burned up.

The person shall be saved....but as if by fire. (as you said). It may not be a comfortable situation to watch one’s life’s work be burned up by fire sent out by Jesus Christ.

Yet nowhere in that passage does it indicate this judgement happens at any time other than at the Judgement seat of Christ. on THAT DAY. In other words, the loss that is suffered does not occur before that day for the one whose church building work is being judged by the Lord Jesus - for eternal rewards.

Am not a theologian or even a theology student.

I read and study the Bible. And “I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for it is the power(dunamis/dynamite) of God unto salvation for the Jew first and then for the Gentile.”

Thanks for your patience in another long post. Will try to be briefer later. Off to do a few other things. Back later. Thanks again for the discussion.


58 posted on 03/22/2008 6:43:27 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: Freedom'sWorthIt
Should one build the Church of Jesus Christ, his/her work shall be Judged by Jesus Christ - on that Day - to be approved by Him —— then the person who built will receive a reward in heaven for that work. But that is NOT SALVATION EARNING WORK. It is Church building work according to this scripture

This is true, -- the purgatorial suffering does not earn salvation. It is simply necessary for the soul already saved to go to heaven, -- because nothing impure can enter it.

59 posted on 03/23/2008 2:28:17 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

I believe Paul is speaking of “not losing his reward” - which believers receive in heaven - before the throne of Jesus Christ - for their work done in His name - by His Spirit - specifically in this passage related to building the CHURCH upon the FOUNDATION which is Jesus Christ ALONE!

Am sorry - I seem to get on this thread and others like it too late to continue the discussion. Will come back to this tomorrow night I hope with more time to discuss.


60 posted on 03/24/2008 8:18:33 PM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
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