Posted on 03/28/2008 8:25:48 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
My niece's husband is a trainee Baptist pastor. Jimbo's hip, friendly, and fun to be with. He's smart and theologically savvy. I like him. He loves Jesus and believes the Bible, and on most moral and doctrinal issues I can affirm what he affirms. We agree on a lot.
But even when we agree, we don't see eye to eye. Somehow we seem to have reached our religious conclusions from different starting points and through different routes. A chapter in Mark Massa's book Anti-Catholicism in America illuminated the problem for me. Massa quotes an important theological work by David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, in which he argues that, underneath our religious language, customs, liturgies, rules, and rubrics, there exist more fundamental ways of seeing.
Catholic Symbols
Tracy says that Catholics have a basic concept of religion that is analogical. To put it simply, Catholics use things they know to try to understand the things they don't. Catholics seek to know God and His work in the world through material things: water, wine, bread, oil, incense, candles, images, and so on. For Catholics, some of these things are more than just symbols -- they are sacraments. They not only point to God, they convey His power and grace to us through the mystery of the Church.
For Catholics, this way of understanding the world, God, the cosmos, and everything is rich and multilayered. The Church is not only a symbol of the Body of Christ -- it is the Body of Christ. The bread brought forward by the members of the Body of Christ becomes itself the Body of Christ to feed the Body of Christ the Church.
The Catholic imagination and the Catholic soul are nurtured in a multitude of different sacraments, sacramentals, signs, and symbols. As a result, all physical things are part of God's plan of salvation. Life in all its fullness abounds with the mystery of God's life and love working through the world. This analogical way of seeing is dependent on, and comes from, the basic fact of God's revelation -- the Incarnation of His son, Jesus Christ.
Protestant Systems
In contrast, my nephew-in-law Jimbo, as a good Baptist, shares a radically different perspective on the whole shooting match. Jimbo, like every Protestant, has grown up within a basic religious paradigm that is more systematic. Tracy calls this "dialectical language." He says Protestant theologians, rather than seeing how physical things and human culture connect us to God, emphasize the radical separation between God and the physical world. The Protestant focuses primarily on man's alienation from God, the fact of sin, the need for redemption, and the need for man's response.
The linear thought process is like any other dialectic process: "Thesis = we sin; antithesis = God says 'no' to our attempts to save ourselves; synthesis = God saves us when we confess the truth and justice of God's 'no' to our sin."
The Protestant dialectical process means that Protestants emphasize the individual's existential inner response to God rather than the idea that God is "with us" working to save us in and through the physical and historical world.
Therefore, the idea that a visible church, a historic apostolic succession, a priesthood, and sacraments are necessary is -- at the very root of Protestant thinking -- alien and dangerous. For the typical Protestant, the Catholic Church is, by definition, worldly. Its very nature is materialistic and compromising with the world, the flesh, and the devil. For the Protestant there is therefore no relationship between Christ and culture. The faith is set up in dialectical opposition to the wisdom of man and the ways of the world.
Massa quotes sociologist Andrew Greeley in summation:
Therefore the fundamental differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are not doctrinal or ethical. The different propositional codes of the two heritages are but manifestations, tips of the iceberg, of more fundamentally differing sets of symbols. The Catholic ethic is "communitarian"; and the Protestant "individualistic" because of the preconscious "organizing" pictures of the two traditions that shape meaning and response to life for members of the respective heritages are different. Catholics and Protestants "see the world differently."
So what does all this mean for Jimbo and me? It means that even when we agree, we don't agree for the same reasons. For example, Jimbo and I may both sign up to work at the soup kitchen on Saturday mornings. As a Catholic, I'm more likely to see that hungry tramp as part of my human family whether he is a Catholic or not. I should feed him because he too is created in the image of God. In feeding him I am more likely to believe that I am also feeding Christ, and that this, in itself, is not only worthy but part of my own salvation, and part of the salvation of the world.
Jimbo wants to feed the homeless too, but he is more likely to do so because he wants to be personally obedient to the commands of Christ. He sees the poor hungry tramp as a lost soul who needs not only a sandwich but a savior. In fact, it's likely that Jimbo will give him the sandwich because he is concerned for the tramp's soul and wants to share the gospel with him and make sure he is saved.
This basic disconnect between our ways of thinking affects virtually everything. Because of the different perspectives, the Baptist and the Catholic will worship differently, pray differently, read the Bible differently, vote differently, produce radically different literature, art, and music. The two may share the same moral values, but they will do so for different reasons. They may share the same essential beliefs, but they will see them from different perspectives.
When we are engaged in dialogue with Protestants over doctrinal or ethical issues, our discussions will be illuminated if we understand the underlying differences of perspective. Furthermore, in the culture wars in which we are now engaged, Catholics and Protestants need to be allies. For the alliance to be strong and positive, both sides need to understand the essential differences of perspective.
Good fences make good neighbors. Only when we understand what truly separates us will we be able to work together with Protestants for the salvation of our society and the ultimate unity of Christ's Church.
Excellent article. We Christians should consider how fun it is to watch Hillary and Obama go at it. Well the secular culture that despises most religions (except Tibetan monks lol) and especially Christians, loves it when we Catholics and Protestants go at it.
Despite our differences we should be able to ally to fight against the culture that wants God dead.
Some things are understood unsaid.
“They also call you that because you’re female!”
LOL!
I waited a long time to reach this vaunted old age and “ma’am” territory.
I don’t have to give the same courtesy to any woman now. They are all “girl” to me.
See, you miss the cultural context. I can also call young men “sweetie,” talk to myself and grumble in public, and tell girls their hair’s a mess.
One misses the cultural context which is a problem when we look at each other’s religions.
I used to think that we could all pull together against a common enemy, too.
This presumes of course, that both Catholics and Protestants regard godless secularism as a greater threat to the common good than they do each other.
After a few years on the FR religion forum, however, I'm afraid I've lost my innocence and I'm no longer sure that this is the case.
You and me both.
That's ironic - after my seven years on FR, I've come to the conclusion that God is bigger than my imagination. This year, I'm even more sure that this is the case.
“It is precisely when every earthy hope has been explored and found wanting, when every possibility of help from earthy sources has been sought and is not forthcoming, when every recourse this world offers, moral as well as material, has been drawn on and expended with no effect, when in the shivering cold every faggot has been thrown on the fire, and in the gathering darkness every glimmer of light has finally flickered out – it is then that Christ’s hand reaches out, sure and firm, that Christ’s words bring their inexhaustible comfort, that His light shines brightest, abolishing the darkness for ever”
- Malcolm Muggeridge, from Christ And The Media
Then you ought to know better. BTW, as an East Texan whose mother came from Mississipi, and whose grandmother was a “primitive,” Baptist, I know that “witnessing” by Baptists more often involving talking the talk when walking the walk. Catholics tend to do less talking, which is not necessarily a good thing.
Is it that we (Catholics and Protestants) don't need to be allies? That we already are? Or what?
That's a nice passage from Muggeridge but I read it as a witness to Christ's faithful presence in times of personal crisis. Is there some oblique relevance to the Catholic/Protestant thing?
This presumes of course, that both Catholics and Protestants regard godless secularism as a greater threat to the common good than they do each other.
After a few years on the FR religion forum, however, I'm afraid I've lost my innocence and I'm no longer sure that this is the case.
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I am not sure that I understand your post.
The above is the post to which I was responding. I will not presume to speak for marshmallow, but if I understood him/her correctly, we agree that there is little hope left for a reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants. I know I see too much distrust here daily to believe otherwise.
My point is that there is always hope, depending on where you place your hope. Mine begins and ends in the character and sovereignty of God, who causes "all things to work together for the good of those who love Him" (Romans 8:28). If your own pope thinks there's hope for a relationship between Catholics and Muslims, why shouldn't there be a greater hope for reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants, who at least believe in the same Triune God and Risen Lord?
Rev. Dwight Longenecker wrote the article
In any event I don't see any relevance in the link. It throws no light on the article. IMO
There is indeed always hope. You're quite correct.
I don't think we're saying different things. My apparent cynicism at Longenecker's comment that Catholics and Protestants ought to be allies in the culture wars was not meant to imply that it couldn't happen. Rather, simply that human cussedness has and still is preventing this from happening to as great a degree as it should.
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Thank you for that. I would like it to be possible.
Very good read, thank you for posting this.
You can’t reconcile with people who waste no opportunity to skewer the Church and in fact spend a great portion of their days trying to find things to accomplish that. The mere fact of their deep-seeded hatred of the Church, that was established by Jesus Christ, points to a very sick heart and faulty intellect. All you can do is witness to the Truth and pray for them.
“My point is that there is always hope, depending on where you place your hope.”
I think where you place ~ellipses~ has an even bigger impact on detente.
It could be “hope” or it could be so much snake oil.
We will see in the future.
Kirk: I have never trusted Klingons, and never will. I have never been able to forgive them for the murder of my boy. Spock says this could be an historic moment, and I'd like to believe him, but how on earth can history get past people like me?
[later scene]
Spock: Is it possible....that we two, you and I, have grown so old and so inflexible, that we have outlived our usefulness? Would that constitute a "joke"?
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