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Our Journey Home
Coming Home Network ^ | Larry and Joetta Lewis

Posted on 04/03/2008 3:24:39 PM PDT by annalex

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To: papertyger

Notice Jesus’s words were ‘the same’ which has the same meaning as what I said, ‘no difference’. That is quite different than twisting it to day Mary was not important. She was doing God’s will, which is extremely important.


101 posted on 04/03/2008 9:52:35 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: papertyger

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


102 posted on 04/03/2008 9:58:12 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: roamer_1
Can you forgive your friend of his sins? Can you heal him? Can you cause his heart to be opened to our Lord? Not of your own will, you cannot. You may ask for those things for your friend, in Christ's name. It is still Christ that intercedes. It is still His work that forgives, heals, or saves, not yours or mine.

None of that changes the dynamic you object to in the first place. It doesn't matter if I'm interceeding in Christ's name, or by the power of Castle Grayskull: I'm still interceeding which according to your earlier formulation, is usurping Christ's role as priest.

103 posted on 04/03/2008 10:20:21 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: Always Right
You completely mischaracterize my statement...

Forgive me!

"Nothing special" and "no different" are such obvious polar opposites!

How on earth could I ever think that's gnat-gagging?

104 posted on 04/03/2008 10:32:02 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

Actually, it is night and day. If God had not thought believers were nothing special he would not have sent His only begotten son to save those who believe. That is VERY special. Jesus refers to us as brothers and sisters. That is VERY special. VERY special is the same as VERY special. You twist it to say VERY special = Nothing special. I was parroting God’s word, and you twist it to me saying Mary was nothing special.


105 posted on 04/03/2008 10:42:00 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: Always Right
I was parroting God's word

Really? Where does God's word say Mary is "no different?"

All this fuss about Mary being "special" sounds awfully Catholic to me.

106 posted on 04/03/2008 11:00:44 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

It is from Matt 12:46-50 and was quoted in post 100. Jesus says his mother is the same as all people who do God’s will in the Kingdom of God. The difference between Catholics and Protestants is Protestants like Christ put all people as brothers and sisters equal in the eyes of God. While Catholics create this hierarchy that Mary is the greatest person ever, followed by saints and popes, and eventually we get down to the peons who are unimportant and who God would never listen to without the help of Mary or some great saint.


107 posted on 04/03/2008 11:09:33 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: Always Right
Jesus says his mother is the same as all people who do God's will in the Kingdom of God.

That is NOT what he said. Interpretation is NOT "parroting."

And the only difference I know of between Catholics and Protestants that matters any is when I was a Protestant, God did not answer my prayer for deliverance while I was proclaiming myself delivered, and He did deliver me when I let the guy who was rightfully entitled to be Pope have the job instead of being my own Pope.

108 posted on 04/03/2008 11:28:51 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

Perhaps bitterness held you back during your pre-Catholic days. Again, I am glad Catholicism works for you. Faith in Jesus is what saves. If it took becoming Catholic for you, that is great. But that is your experience. Many people find Jesus in other ways, including dare I say in Protestant churches. You just seem to still have anger towards fellow Christians which I don’t get.


109 posted on 04/03/2008 11:40:37 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: annalex

Christ tells us over and over and over we are to come directly to Him

The scripture you posted does not say that, “doctor”. Please post the scripture that supports your opinion.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn’t be any clearer.


110 posted on 04/03/2008 11:56:55 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: Always Right
You just seem to still have anger towards fellow Christians which I don't get.

Would you not be angered by those who make promises predicated on the Bible, then define everything associated with those promises in such fuzzy terms there's no way to judge if the promise is being kept or not?

That's not "faith," it's fraud! And it's done in the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ!

111 posted on 04/03/2008 11:58:32 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: annalex

Christ tells us over and over and over we are to come directly to Him

The scripture you posted does not say that, “doctor”. Please post the scripture that supports your opinion.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn’t be any clearer.


112 posted on 04/04/2008 12:01:16 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: annalex

Christ tells us over and over and over we are to come directly to Him

The scripture you posted does not say that, “doctor”. Please post the scripture that supports your opinion.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn’t be any clearer.


113 posted on 04/04/2008 12:01:56 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: annalex

Christ tells us over and over and over we are to come directly to Him

The scripture you posted does not say that, “doctor”. Please post the scripture that supports your opinion.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn’t be any clearer.


114 posted on 04/04/2008 12:05:21 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus

Sorry, I kept getting a server error.


115 posted on 04/04/2008 12:06:17 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn't be any clearer.

Sure it could. You say that like you have a detailed understanding of how the Trinity works.

You people act like if I "go to the movies" I can't "eat popcorn" too.

116 posted on 04/04/2008 12:11:39 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

Sure it could. You say that like you have a detailed understanding of how the Trinity works.”

Marys part of the Trinity? Wow, how did I miss that?


117 posted on 04/04/2008 12:14:54 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
Sorry, I kept getting a server error.

Really? I didn't notice.

Really? I didn't notice.

Really? I didn't notice.

Really? I didn't notice.

Really? I didn't notice.

;o)

118 posted on 04/04/2008 12:15:59 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: philetus
Marys part of the Trinity? Wow, how did I miss that?

Don't you think that kind of insinuation is unecessarily provocative?

119 posted on 04/04/2008 12:24:04 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

You can’t refute John 14:6, so you act stupid and ignore it.


120 posted on 04/04/2008 12:25:41 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus

Don’t you think that kind of insinuation is unecessarily provocative? “

You’re an idiot


121 posted on 04/04/2008 12:26:41 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
You can't refute John 14:6, so you act stupid and ignore it.

Nonsense. I don't need to refute it, because you can't define the limits of what that Scripture permits.

122 posted on 04/04/2008 12:31:49 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: Huber; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy

***Dr. E - I saw you pinged and was wondering when exactly you and Gamecock had started watching EWTN.***

When Charles Manson is elected President of the United States, I might watch for a few minutes


123 posted on 04/04/2008 12:35:27 AM PDT by Gamecock (Viva La Reformacion!)
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To: philetus
You're an idiot

Not at all. It's just that when we Catholics answer in the same manner as our slanderous brethren, our posts get pulled, so we have to be more circumspect.

124 posted on 04/04/2008 12:37:33 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger
I'm still interceeding which according to your earlier formulation, is usurping Christ's role as priest.

In the first place, your 'usurpation' is a bit presumptuous. You have no ability to usurp anything that is Christ's.

Secondly, while you are welcome to try, any intercession you might make before Jehovah standing upon your own name will come to naught. Standing upon the name of Aaron, in the way of the Levitical priesthood is also without merit. You may stand upon Peter, or any apostle, Mary, or any saint, the power of castle grayskull, the great doorknob, or the devil himself... Bupkis.

There is only Christ. Jehovah has hidden Himself from all others, as they are a stench in his nostrils.

And by the way, assuming intersession of saints for the sake of argument, If one knows the name of the High Priest, having a personal relationship with Him, what other name would better suffice? What shepherd shall we call to but our own? Why would one place a call to the advertising department when one has the private number of the CEO? It seems a bit silly, doesn't it?

Our prayers, be they praise, forgiveness, intercessory for others, or whatever, are all offerings before the Father. They ALL must pass from us to our Priest (intercessor), to the Father. We are unworthy to access the Father without the intercessory power of our Priest. That is why we pray in his name, and no other name will do.

So no, your intercessory prayer does not 'usurp' anything, nor does it in fact intercede. You ask in Christ's name for Jehovah to intercede as an offering of faith.

Finally, I think that prayers of intercession are quite like an act of forgiveness toward someone who has harmed you personally:

That act of forgiveness is seldom known to the person one is forgiving, and has no real impact upon that person's life. The act of forgiveness has much more influence upon oneself- It heals one's self of anger and fear, distrust and self pity. It causes one to put the matter to bed and to cease dwelling on the offense. It is really profound, and worth understanding.

Likewise, I imagine an intercessory prayer is of little real effect in the presence of an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent God. He already knew the score, and was already inclined to help, no matter who one might be praying over, or why. Does He need us to draw attention to the plight? Would He have forgotten that soul's cries had we not reminded Him? Are we not just an incidental tool in this way?

But that act of caring and belief does much within oneself to form a contrite heart, ready for supplication. Belief brings more belief, caring brings more caring, and so it goes. As is always the case, selflessly focusing upon others before God winds up helping you more than them.

125 posted on 04/04/2008 1:00:35 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: papertyger

You can’t refute John 14:6, so you act stupid and ignore it.

Nonsense. I don’t need to refute it, because you can’t define the limits of what that Scripture permits. “

Nonsense yourself. Out of curiosity, how do you interpret John 14:6 to get limits to “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”, in answer to Thomas’s “and how can we know the way?”


126 posted on 04/04/2008 1:03:23 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus

I hate to get in on this, but I have to ask, if the Holy Mother points a soul to Her Son Who brings that lost soul to the Father, is that not coming to the Father through the Son? Where is the contradiction? It seems no different to me than you as a Christian pointing to Christ through your witness to some lost soul, right?


127 posted on 04/04/2008 1:04:05 AM PDT by beachdweller
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To: papertyger

I’ll read your answer later. I have to get some sleep.
I’m having surgery at 6 in the morning.


128 posted on 04/04/2008 1:05:10 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: beachdweller

It seems no different to me than you as a Christian pointing to Christ through your witness to some lost soul, right?”

wrong


129 posted on 04/04/2008 1:07:46 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus

Then explain how the witness of Christ’s Mother is less than yours as a Christian. Your one word answer seems insufficient to me.


130 posted on 04/04/2008 1:39:26 AM PDT by beachdweller
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To: roamer_1
In the first place, your 'usurpation' is a bit presumptuous. You have no ability to usurp anything that is Christ's.

Hey, I'm not the one that claimed "The role of the intercessor is the same thing as the role of a priest," so don't expect ME to make sense out of it.

Why would one place a call to the advertising department when one has the private number of the CEO? It seems a bit silly, doesn't it?

Not at all. One does not treat their sovereign like their "go-to-guy." The Scriptures tell us in many places to be cautious in the presence of the King.

Likewise, I imagine an intercessory prayer is of little real effect in the presence of an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent God.

Which is why we ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to interceed for us. The Scriptures clearly state Jesus told the BVM "mine hour is not yet come," but He changed the divine plan for His first miracle to accommodate her. NO ONE else in Scripture evinces such a profound influence on the Almighty for such a pedestrian problem.

131 posted on 04/04/2008 2:02:13 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: philetus
Out of curiosity, how do you interpret John 14:6 to get limits to “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

I'm not the one interpreting limits to what "by me" can mean: you are.

As I said earlier it's like someone insisting you could not have eaten any popcorn if all you said was "I went to see a movie."

Why is it never enough for Protestants to say they disagree with Catholic interpretation of Scripture; they always seem to have to find something wicked about it.

132 posted on 04/04/2008 2:42:45 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger
Would you not be angered by those who make promises predicated on the Bible, then define everything associated with those promises in such fuzzy terms there's no way to judge if the promise is being kept or not?

Apparently, you and I were both burned by the abortionists of the Jesus Movement, the paperback "prophets" and prognosticators. I found my way through to the clarity of Reformed theology, and you hacked your way through that swamp to another great tradition. We would agree that there is a Judge, and a coming reckoning, that will make Fabulous Hal's fortunes, and four wives, of faint comfort.

133 posted on 04/04/2008 3:36:01 AM PDT by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: beachdweller
I hate to get in on this, but I have to ask, if the Holy Mother points a soul to Her Son Who brings that lost soul to the Father, is that not coming to the Father through the Son? Where is the contradiction? It seems no different to me than you as a Christian pointing to Christ through your witness to some lost soul, right?

But I am here, in the flesh, in the course of normal human life. The BVM is seen as functioning as a spiritual intermediary. A friendly ghost who helps us deal with other (equivalent?) Spirits. The boundary between Creator and Creation is blurred, from the wrong direction. And spookiness sets in.

134 posted on 04/04/2008 3:41:38 AM PDT by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: beachdweller
It seems no different to me than you as a Christian pointing to Christ through your witness to some lost soul, right?

Excellent. In that we Christians are all alive in Christ, there is no difference between asking your fellow Christian physically next to you to pray for you, and asking your fellow Christian now in Heaven to pray for you.

135 posted on 04/04/2008 4:49:46 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard; beachdweller

This is true.

There are also Scriptural events that help us to understand the importance of helping one another with prayer and/or helping another person by our intercessory actions.

Just a few examples among quite a few:

Those who helped to hold up the arms of Moses as he prayed to God;

Those who made an opening in the roof and lowered the man into the area where Jesus was, so that Jesus could cure him;

The foot soldier that the centurion sent to Jesus to ask Him to cure his child.

Then there was Mary who was sent by the angel to help her cousin Elizabeth—who saw Mary and in that moment recognized Mary as blessed and the fruit of her womb as blessed.

At Cana, it was God’s will that Mary intercede for the poor couple who ran out of wine at their wedding feast. Since Scripture tells us in the Psalms that whatever God wills, He does, we can be sure that it was His will that Mary should act as intercessor. All she said was: “They have no wine”. Jesus did the rest. She also told the chief steward: “Do whatever He tells you”. The chief steward listened to her, did what the Lord told him to do, and —not surprisingly at all—he was, by listening and obeying, the first person to witness Jesus’ first public miracle.


136 posted on 04/04/2008 5:36:59 AM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words:"It's too late"))
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To: Running On Empty
She also told the chief steward: “Do whatever He tells you”.

I believe that is the best advice ever given to anyone by any human person.

137 posted on 04/04/2008 5:43:34 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: papertyger
And the only difference I know of between Catholics and Protestants that matters any is when I was a Protestant, God did not answer my prayer for deliverance while I was proclaiming myself delivered,

There's an awful lot of Protestants out there who claim their prayers are answered by God...Myself included...

138 posted on 04/04/2008 5:44:21 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: papertyger
Nonsense. I don't need to refute it, because you can't define the limits of what that Scripture permits.

God already set the limits...You know what the limits are...The limits are no one...

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

139 posted on 04/04/2008 5:50:06 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Alex Murphy

You are not on my ping list.


140 posted on 04/04/2008 6:28:01 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: papertyger; philetus
Why is it never enough for Protestants Catholics to say they disagree with Catholic the Reformed interpretation of Scripture; they always seem to have to find something wicked about it.

Sounds like a perfect summation of the Council of Trent's Sixth Session.

141 posted on 04/04/2008 6:41:26 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: NYer
You are not on my ping list.

Which explains the constant pings to your Catholic conversion threads (see this ping, and this ping, and this ping for recent examples). Do not ping me to any of your threads again.

142 posted on 04/04/2008 6:49:45 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: Running On Empty; ArrogantBustard; annalex

Some of the comments on this thread, even before I went to bed last night, reminded me of an occasion when Larry Lewis spoke to the RCIA class at our parish. My husband and I, who are also both converts, were sponsors in that class.

One of the candidates, a mature man, maybe in his late 40’s, asked Larry about opposition from one’s family, and what could be done. Larry said that it hurt him and Joetta every day to know that their children felt such hostility toward the Catholic Church, and such resentment at the path their parents’ journey had taken. All he could do was suffer it, like Jesus suffered and Mary suffered.


143 posted on 04/04/2008 7:14:21 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: Tax-chick

That happens to very many converts to Catholicism. I experienced actual rejection from my Protestant friends. And it took some time for my father and mother to accept my conversion. However, in the end, both of my parents were ministered to by a priest in the last hours of their life. Deo gratias.


144 posted on 04/04/2008 7:45:08 AM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words:"It's too late"))
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To: Running On Empty

My parents are still Protestants, but they basically shrugged at our conversion. The only family member who was deeply hostile was my husband’s brother, but they’d never gotten along anyway, and it’s blown over.


145 posted on 04/04/2008 7:51:43 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: annalex
I get pretty disappointed when one of these threads devolves into the same conversation on the differences between Catholicism and everything else.

I'd like to encourage anyone who doesn't understand the Catholic relationship with the Blessed Virgin to please read this book. It does a good job of explaining all the Catholic dogmas, scriptural references, various devotions, etc. etc. etc. and is written in such a way that it can be a handy resource for Catholics and non-Catholics alike.



I'm not asking you to believe anything. Believe whatever you want to believe. But if you want to understand, and trust me, if you want to engage in the discussion properly, you should understand the "other side," then please be educated on what the other side believes. This book is a good place to begin.
146 posted on 04/04/2008 8:28:26 AM PDT by BaBaStooey ("Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." Ephesians 5:14)
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To: BaBaStooey

*sound of crickets*


147 posted on 04/04/2008 9:03:34 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: Tax-chick

148 posted on 04/04/2008 9:21:50 AM PDT by BaBaStooey ("Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." Ephesians 5:14)
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To: BaBaStooey
Where are the bails? Has he been stumped? Are we stumped? < g >

And what on EARTH is "USA" doing on that wicketkeeper???!!!??? It's . . . unAmerican!

149 posted on 04/04/2008 9:53:44 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: BaBaStooey; AnAmericanMother

I would have completely missed the relevance of that picture if AAM hadn’t commented :-). Some days the world just whizzes by me ...


150 posted on 04/04/2008 12:24:04 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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