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To: papertyger
Ummm, scripture is all we have to go on, that we can be sure goes back to the apostles (if you're a believer, anyway). The Catholic Church began to invent all sorts of things along the way, starting very early on. I don't accept anything made up by men as being on equal basis with scripture.

For instance, the "assumption of Mary" - that was simply made up. It wasn't even declared "from the seat" until the mid 1800's. But there's no evidence for it, no basis for it, none. The church has a long tradition, and the church fathers wrote a lot - and there is nothing indicating Mary died anything other than a natural death. The same can be said of the issue of her perpetual virginity.

This gets into the thing that keeps me from the church (though other things attract me to the church, the liturgy, parts of the tradition, etc) - a lot of stuff that got added along the way. I mean, the Borgias bought into the Papacy, they had orgies in the Vatican. Am I supposed to believe that anything "from the seat" (or whatever they call it) by men like that is on par with the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John or the Apostles Paul, Peter and James? Sorry, can't accept that.

41 posted on 04/03/2008 5:32:21 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: Boagenes
I don't accept anything made up by men as being on equal basis with scripture.

So you are not Protestant either. What religion are you?

43 posted on 04/03/2008 5:38:53 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Boagenes
Just want to touch one quick thing on your post. I agree wholeheartedly that there were a lot of scummy Popes. If you find a Catholic who claims they were free of flaws, knock 'em on the head for me! But...I think you have an strange view of when "ex Cathedra" applies.

It is not normal for the Pope to speak "ex cathedra." Nowhere near everything he says qualifies for this status. In fact, most scholars believe such authority has been used only 7 times in the last 2000 years. Not a common occurance, by any strech. Wikipedia actually has a decent list:

Now, if you'd like to have a discussion on any of these, feel free to ask, and I'm sure that there are many Catholic FReepers who would be more than willing to talk with you!

46 posted on 04/03/2008 5:43:31 PM PDT by thefrankbaum
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To: Boagenes
Ummm, scripture is all we have to go on, that we can be sure goes back to the apostles (if you're a believer, anyway).

Again, you are assuming nothing was supposed to change. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that presumption needs to be validated.

The Catholic Church began to invent all sorts of things along the way, starting very early on. I don't accept anything made up by men as being on equal basis with scripture.

Then how do you exempt the New Testament from your lack of acceptence?

For instance, the "assumption of Mary" - that was simply made up. It wasn't even declared "from the seat" until the mid 1800's. But there's no evidence for it, no basis for it, none. The church has a long tradition, and the church fathers wrote a lot - and there is nothing indicating Mary died anything other than a natural death. The same can be said of the issue of her perpetual virginity.

The Church disagrees with you. What investigation have you conducted into the validity of the Catholic claims as opposed to the Protestant claims?

a lot of stuff that got added along the way. ...Am I supposed to believe that anything "from the seat" (or whatever they call it) by men like that is on par with the writings of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John or the Apostles Paul, Peter and James? Sorry, can't accept that.

That, of course, is your choice, but do not confuse your preference for one source over another as dispositive.

The modern student can't even get a straight story about the Reagan administration; I'm sure not going to give the benefit of doubt to those opposed to the Church. Particularly when I spent twenty years a "slave to sin" as a "saved" Bible christian, but I was released from that torment as a Catholic.

48 posted on 04/03/2008 5:56:58 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: Boagenes
Hmm what's in this glass here?

I think I sent you a private commo that was spoze to be public. Excuse me for the repetition.

The dogma of the Assumption does not touch on the question of Mary's natural death. So the lack of evidence of early thought that she did NOT die a natural death would have no determinative bearing on the dogma.

Ummm, scripture is all we have to go on, that we can be sure goes back to the apostles (if you're a believer, anyway). The Catholic Church began to invent all sorts of things along the way, starting very early on. I don't accept anything made up by men as being on equal basis with scripture.

This, like your characterization of Marian dogma and devotion as Mariolatry, skews the argument. I'm not going ot defend mariolatry, and if I thought Church traditions and dogma were just "made up by men" I'd look at them differently myself. You may not trust God's promise to His Church, and so you may find Scripture "all we have to go on". Certainly, if the teachings of the Church were just "inventions" I wouldn't rely on them either. But maybe they're not inventions.

The Doctrine of Papal infallibility is not about the virtue of Popes. It's about God's promise to guide His Church. You can get clear water from rusty pipes and earthen vessels can hold treasures. The pipes are still rusty, the vessels earthen. It's the old book-cover thing, or a variation on it.

One advantage of being careful about how you approach the controversy is that you may find (I don't know) what you are accepting which may be just as questionable as what what you currently cannot accept.

50 posted on 04/03/2008 6:44:31 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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