Quix, please read Bustard's comments. Then you'll get the point. Then if you have any disagreements --- be our guest! We're all ears!
Posted on 04/04/2008 6:47:21 AM PDT by NYer
According to Dr. David O'Brien, it's an offense to past generations of Catholics who built the Church in America to mourn the changing Church instead of celebrating it.
In an upcoming lecture titled, "On Solid Ground: Our Changing Church in Historical Perspective," he will expand on that theory.
His talk, April 9, 7 p.m., at Christian Brothers Academy in Albany, is sponsored by the Holy Cross Club of Eastern New York. For 39 years, he taught at Holy Cross College in Massachusetts as "Loyola professor of Roman Catholic studies."
'Big picture'
Having experienced Catholicism both before and after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, which made great changes in the Church, Dr. O'Brien likes to look at the "big picture" of American Church history.
Immigrants to the U.S. in the early 20th century, he explained, developed strong ethnic subcultures, while also building the Church in accord with their desire for religious freedom -- a "story of liberation," he noted.
Since Vatican II, the Church and the U.S. have both undergone gradual change: Immigrants became "Americanized," and the ethnic subcultures they created, homogenized. There was also a demographic shift among Catholics from cities to suburbs, and the country as a whole lost what Dr. O'Brien terms the "emotional commitment" to strong patriotism.
New flavor
The professor believes those trends are leading toward a future Church with a more evangelical flavor.
"Young adults are certainly open to Jesus and personal faith, but much of the structure of Catholicism is problematic" to them, he noted.
Rather than the focus of the past on Church doctrine, structure and clerical authority, Dr. O'Brien sees the Church becoming more "Bible- and Jesus-centered," with an emphasis on lay leadership, pastoral ministries, Catholics' personal relationship with Christ and the kind of small faith communities many parishes have already developed.
Planning
Pastoral planning is the framework to bring that change about, he explained. The process "is so much healthier when you have a good diocese with some trust and a pastoral staff."
In a recent column in the Berkshire Eagle newspaper, Dr. O'Brien stated that "closed parishes are one chapter, a sad chapter, in larger stories of family success, expanding freedom, and widening responsibilities."
All the changes in the past, present and future, he concluded, should be about Catholics using their freedom and resources to "lift the human family to the kingdom of God."
(Dr. O'Brien's talk is free and open to the public. He is the author of "The Renewal of American Catholicism," "Renewing the Earth: Catholic Documents on Peace, Justice and liberation," and "Public Catholicism.")
Albany RC Catholics imbibe a weekly diet of this nonsense through their diocesan newspaper.
Like they say, "You get what you pay for!" ;-)
Exactly what does the good doctor suppose "Church docrtine" is all about?
While an emphasis on the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bible is commendable, lay leadership isn’t how its done in Catholicism. If that’s what he wants, why not become a Protestant?
Frankly, I think the Catholics are doing a wonderful thing... rolling back some of the Vatican II nonsense and going back to things like the Tridentine Mass.
Just be sure of what you’re getting.
In this case, you’re getting a look into the Enemy’s battle plan.
I’m sure the good doctor would describe it otherwise, but that’s my take on it.
And now for the good news.
He just retired!!...... :-)
You should be ashamed for yourself for putting your own spin on NYer’s words, instead of asking her specifically what you meant.
...what she meant, not what you meant.
NYer is dead on right on this movement. This is a lite version of Kumbaya Liberation Theology and the social gospel heresy that Rev. Jeremiah Wright is preaching.
The “nonsense” is the suggestion that Catholicism is not “Bible- and Jesus-centered.”
What this person wants is Catholicism that looks more like Calvinism.
It is also very dishonest of you to pull NYer’s words out of their context and apply them to a context of YOUR choice.
For example, he starts off with:
"Young adults are certainly open to Jesus and personal faith, but much of the structure of Catholicism is problematic" to them, he noted.
Now, it's certain the being "open to Jesus" is a good thing ... but then come the buzzwords. "Personal faith"? I understand that to mean "making up your own beleifs", and the corollary notion that what's "true for me" may not necessarily be "true for you". Now, there is either one Truth, or there are an infinity of truths. I believe Christ is quite clear on there being only one.
Then he goes on to talk about "structure", without being specific as to what he means. Let the reader interpolate as he will. And "problematic" is a useless word ... at most it means "I (the speaker) don't like it (for unspecified reasons)".
Finally, who is he to speak for "young adults" as a monolithic collective. Are they one? He certainly isn't a young adult himself ... did they really appoint him their spokesman, or did he arrogate that position to himself?
Rather than the focus of the past on Church doctrine, structure and clerical authority, Dr. O'Brien sees the Church becoming more "Bible- and Jesus-centered,"
To suggest that the Church is not traditionally oriented toward Jesus, with the Bible as the reference above all other earthly references is simply insane ... out of touch with reality.
Additionally, he sets doctrine, structure, and clergy in opposition to the Bible and Jesus. Nonsense! Doctrine IS, primarily, the Truth about Jesus, anchored by the Bible. The structure of the Church and the legitimate authority of clergy is designed to safeguard those Truths. To set them against each other is to fundamentally misrepresent both
But it gets worse:
emphasis on lay leadership, pastoral ministries, Catholics' personal relationship with Christ and the kind of small faith communities many parishes have already developed.
First, he proposes new structures which, by their unaccountable nature, are ill suited to protecting Truth. In the midst of this, we get the "personal relationship with Christ". Now, that's certainly what we're supposed to have ... but his distraction from doctrine, from knowing the Truth of who and what Christ was and is, PREVENTS folks from having an authentic personal relationship with Christ. If you don't know Him, you can't have a relationship with Him.
I must put this in the context which might shed some light upon the fears that I express.
I am currently reading BLACKLISTED BY HISTORY by M. Stanton Evans which is mainly about Joseph McCarthy but contains many startling revelations about KGB/FSB Soviet Communist operations in the West.
When I hear this sort of non-sense, and I do travel in the Albany area to visit relatives, I have to wonder just who is saying this? You would be surprised to know that the Federal Government knew about Soviet agents in our country and government as early as 1938.But they did nothing about it. One of them ,Alger Hiss, was named in 1938 and convicted in 1948. But in between he helped draw up the charter for the UN. And yes they have even infiltrated our Church as well as many others.
Again, our friend is simply out of touch with reality.
Closed parishes and declining attendance is a sign of the catechetical disaster in some dioceses ... if folks aren't taught the Truth in Church, they'll head elsewhere. The closed parishes are a chapter in the abject failure of many in the Church to do their duty in spreading the Gospel, and a consequent contracting freedom of folks to worship THE LORD in Spirit and Truth.
And this, folks, is why we condemn Dr. O'Brien's offerings (and those of his confreres in assaulting the Church from within) as nonsense.
We should be a little more blunt, and call it diabolical nonsense.
For you non-Catholics.....we are TOTALLY JESUS BASED AND BIBLE BASED....yes, MARY is JESUS'S MOTHER AND SHE"S IN THE BIBLE...EVEN YOURS.
FTA"Rather than the focus of the past on Church doctrine, structure and clerical authority...
Unless you're 55 or older, it's likely you've never even experienced a focus on clear, complete transmission of the teachings ("doctrine"), apostolic continuity ("stucture") and the discipline which comes from moral accountability ("clerical authority").
So yeah, we've been a couple of quarts short on clear teaching, a lived sense of continuity, and obvious discipline/accountability for about 40 years. You got what you wanted. You like the results?
You like that one in every ten Americans is an ex-Catholic?...yikes!
Not quite, unfortunately. In the Indianapolis archdiocese, at least in Vigo County where I live. We have priests covering two or three different parishes. Thus, parish lay people are needed to cover day-to-day operations. One parish here is run by a nun. The priest who celebrates mass each week is referred to as the "Priest Minister." Sister Connie runs the show. It is curious that most of the Catholics who attend this parish at liberal Democrats.
Right. Except embracing and developing the tradition (e.g. traditional liturgy) IS the implementation of Vatican II.
What Benedict XVI is pushing for, is precisely that---- now, after 40 years in the wilderness --- we should start the serious implemention of Vatican II.
See Arrogant Bustard at #4.
Thank you.
Because he has a lot of gall. ;'}
Hope you like it.
Some people spend their lives taking everything out of context. The Bible, the Catechism, what others say....
Egotism and Narcissism, are rampant. It is all about what “I” think, not about Truth. If Truth is inconvenient or “I” can’t understand it then it must not be Truth. When everything is about me, me, me, the truth becomes fungible. It seems that their opinion should be the correct one and so they just replace the Truth with their own particular brand of “truth”.
The fruits of Martin Luther.
Quix, please read Bustard's comments. Then you'll get the point. Then if you have any disagreements --- be our guest! We're all ears!
As I have said before here, Gramscian Communism's goal was to do just what you have said above. (Read especially post 33 on that linked Gramsci thread.)
And as I have also said, My mom had a very good friend whose brother was in seminary in the 50's, and the night before ordination, one of the seminarians was arrested by the FBI. I don't know the exact charges, but something to do with being a Communist plant.
Communism is alive and well in this country, under other labels; progressivism, global warming, political correctness. The aim is still subjugation to the state, with the state as god and the concomitant loss of freedom, loss of beauty, loss of truth, loss of redemption.
You probably have already read this, but I'm putting it out there again for those who have not:
I'd like to introduce the good doctor to some "young adults" ... I don't think he accurately represents their views:
Catholicism is not a no-fault religion.
Catholics believe that change is conversion to a better person.
My kids have gone through the Seton homeschool curriculum and know their Baltimore Catechism backwards and forwards. They love it. They like the straightforward Q&A approach. And they were bemused by the hippy-dippy, "let's draw a picture of something you love," First Communion classes I felt they were obliged to attend. They've been catechizing the neighbors since they were about 4 or 5. It's fun to hear the stories. Sadly, the other kids, of whatever religion, know absolutely nothing about anything.
Nope what this person wants is not a Church centered on the Bible and Jesus but one that is centered on the self.
Calvinists hardly fit that description.
Nowhere does Nyer say that a Faith centered in Jesus and the Bible is nonsense. She says the group Catholics blah, blah, blah spout nonsense in the Diocesian paper.l
If Calvinism is not centered on self, it IS centered on someone other than Christ: an autocratic French lawyer named Jean Cauvin.
I’m not sure that one of the “Usual Suspects” will come back after dropping a bomb.
Maybe I’ll be surprised.
This should clarify the situation for you and anyone else unfamiliar with the Albany diocese.
Agony In Albany (in .pdf format).
AB,
Good analysis and observation. The things you are pointing out are teachings from emerging church advocates like Tony Campolo, Brian McLaren and Jim Wallis. All liberation theologians and leftists.
If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit.
Matthew 15:14
Not sure what a "emerging church" is ... I surmise that it's a Protestant manifestation of the same problem?
Liberation theology and the “Emerging Church” (call it Christian Socialism or Christian Communism)is an infection within all of Christendom in every sect and no one is immune. For example the 11 Anglican churches that split off here in VA are getting away from this mess. They also won their lawsuit against the liberals and can keep their property.
You wrote: “I’ve seen these snakes up close and personal, in the Richmond Diocese. I really don’t like them.”
The Holy Spirit within you is giving you discernment about these charlatans(Read 2 Peter 2 and 2 Timothy 3 for confirmation).I know what you are talking about and they get real offended when you confront them with truth which I do fearlessly. But I am not politically correct and tell it the way it is.
Are you from Richmond? I live in Manassas.
Read the "City of God", by Agustin a little closer to the Mark.
I lived in Norfolk for several years ... later in Fairfax County. Richmond Diocese and Arlington Diocese are different as night and day. I’m now ‘way out in the boonies, “somewhere” in the Sheanadoah Valley.
As for the Scriptures you cited ... yeah. Exactly. We can’t way we weren’t warned. Their name may as well be “Legion” ... they certainly are many.
Just the title of that organization is enough warning for me LOL!
Let me guess...this guy is between the ages of 55-65, came of age during the immediate post-Vatican II deconstructionist era, was nourished on Kumbaya Catholicism, and inhabits the Protestant wing of the Catholic Church. He might even have been a former priest or seminarian, fell in love with a former nun and married, having 1.75 children who were educated at one of the secular Ivy League Northeastern schools, rarely if ever goes to confession, believes that women ought to be ordained priests, and consecrated as bishops, votes for pro-abortion Democrat politicians, and believes that if only we had more government programs and spending we could approach nirvana. He would question whether the Eucharist is really the Body and Blood of Christ and sees little difference between the Protestant eccesial communities and the Catholic Church.
His lecture is a MUST!
Pray for the Holy Spirit to sweep over this lecture and pour forth His Fruit and Gifts and for the Holy Spirit to touch Dr. O'Brien right in his heart.
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