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Twenty One Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura
Catholic Apologetics ^ | Joel Peters

Posted on 04/04/2008 11:29:53 AM PDT by big'ol_freeper

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To: flaglady47

God sure did allow Luther and those Protestants to go their way, so apparently He did not intend for Catholic rule over this globe.


101 posted on 04/07/2008 4:11:50 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

“It certainly wasn’t necessary to come up with a whole new religion to do what was already being done.”

Well yes, maybe it was necessary. Because of Jesus Christ, who was Jewish, and had Jewish followers, no gentiles to speak of at this point, all Jewish, who believed him to be the Messiah. Therefore, those Jews believing Jesus Christ to be the prophesized Messiah differentiated themselves from their fellow Jews who didn’t believe Christ was the Messiah. At that point, the two different groups of Jews went their divergent ways in religious belief and traditions, which was inevitable, as the squabble over whether Christ was the Messiah or not was not going to be solved. Hence it was really an internecine battle between Jews that split apart. Hence “Christ”ianity, Jewish followers of Christ as versus Jews who did not acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. So if a “new religion” as you put it was created, it was created by Jews, those that believed the Messiah prophesized in the OT had arrived on earth. And the Jews that rejected it stuck with the old traditions that were not built around the idea of the actual coming of the Messiah, obviously. And the Jews that believed in Christ built their traditions around the fact that Christ was the Messiah. Obviously the Torah, by inference, and the Old Testament (written by Jews and a basic component of Christian religious belief) is included in the Christian religion, as the Messiah was prophesized, and the Christians surely believe that happened, don’t they.


102 posted on 04/07/2008 4:15:35 AM PDT by flaglady47 (Hey Obama, to quote your Preacher man, your "chickens have come home to roost")
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To: Just mythoughts

“God sure did allow Luther and those Protestants to go their way, so apparently He did not intend for Catholic rule over this globe.”

As we both know, there is the concept of free will. Luther and the Protestants going their own way was an act of free will, just as someone who decides to murder one of his fellow humans is an act of free will, or those who take drugs is an act of free will, or those that become prostitutes and johns is an act of free will. Need I go on? God allows man to make choices in life based on free will, but that doesn’t make those choices all good ones. And the splintering of the Christian religion into a multitude of sects was not a good choice.


103 posted on 04/07/2008 4:28:00 AM PDT by flaglady47 (Hey Obama, to quote your Preacher man, your "chickens have come home to roost")
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To: flaglady47
As we both know, there is the concept of free will. Luther and the Protestants going their own way was an act of free will, just as someone who decides to murder one of his fellow humans is an act of free will, or those who take drugs is an act of free will, or those that become prostitutes and johns is an act of free will. Need I go on? God allows man to make choices in life based on free will, but that doesn’t make those choices all good ones. And the splintering of the Christian religion into a multitude of sects was not a good choice.

Welll now Scripture says 'free will' is more than a concept. Paul says that there are those Ephesians 1:4 'According as He hath chosen us (election) in Him *BEFORE* the 'foundation of the world', (actually a verb meaning casting down - overthrow) that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

5 Having *predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,

according to the good pleasure of His will,

To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us acceptable in the Beloved:

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"

11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the *mysteries* of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is NOT given. Christ then quotes Isaiah 6:9-10

We this day have benefit of the parables and then the private explanation Christ gave the disciples and yet there is still the majority that read right over the explanation or ignore the parables entirely.

104 posted on 04/07/2008 4:39:52 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts

“We this day have benefit of the parables and then the private explanation Christ gave the disciples and yet there is still the majority that read right over the explanation or ignore the parables entirely.”

Speak English. I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. No bible quotes, just plain English please, so I can try to understand your point.


105 posted on 04/07/2008 4:46:39 AM PDT by flaglady47 (Hey Obama, to quote your Preacher man, your "chickens have come home to roost")
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To: flaglady47
Speak English. I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. No bible quotes, just plain English please, so I can try to understand your point.

Isn't that the issue this thread is supposedly addressing, who is doing the speaking, the WORD which we are told is GOD, or what pieces and parts that 'men' select for their authoritarian objectives.

According to Scripture 'before' this flesh age, Peter calls it the age that WAS (IIPeter 3:5,6,7) the 'souls' had a choice, follow the Heavenly Father or the devil. The souls that stood against the devil are those *predestined* or as Paul says chosen - (election) that have been born since the beginning of this flesh age. Remember Enoch Genesis 5:22 Translated without dying .. He prophesied "by faith".

Peter says that judgment will begin at the house of God and we all will be judged individually and we won't be taking our preacher/priests as excuse for our own acts or lack thereof.

We are told that the WORD is GOD and it was so since 'In the beginning', is that NOT instruction for each and every one to learn the WORD if one is to know what the instruction is of the Heavenly Father. Any church can and has taken the WORD and use that WORD for maintaining their positions. We are told NOT to judge but to test the fruit as discernment if what is being taught/preached is in fact the WORD or traditions of a self protection racket.

106 posted on 04/07/2008 5:03:27 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Is he authoritative, or not?

No -- because in that statement he is contradicting his previous statement that "in matters of importance one should defer to the writings of the apostles".

So which is it???

They cannot both be true unless he is saying that one should obey the priests in unimportant matters, but obey the scriptures in those places where it really matters.

But since the office of a "priest" for the New Testament is not found in any of those writings of the apostles, Irenaeus should have taken his own advice and deferred to the writings of the apostles before penning those words.

107 posted on 04/07/2008 5:15:05 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
O.K. . . . I get it.

St. Irenaeus is only authoritative when he agrees with YOU.

108 posted on 04/07/2008 5:21:19 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Just mythoughts

It was the the Catholic Church that codified the Bible. It was men who wrote it, inspired by the Holy Spirit. You can’t take the men nor the Catholic Church out of it no matter how hard you try. The Bible didn’t write itself, and the books of the Bible you follow were chosen by the Catholic Church, not by “the Word”. It wasn’t magically written.


109 posted on 04/07/2008 5:25:21 AM PDT by flaglady47 (Hey Obama, to quote your Preacher man, your "chickens have come home to roost")
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To: flaglady47
It was the the Catholic Church that codified the Bible. It was men who wrote it, inspired by the Holy Spirit. You can’t take the men nor the Catholic Church out of it no matter how hard you try. The Bible didn’t write itself, and the books of the Bible you follow were chosen by the Catholic Church, not by “the Word”. It wasn’t magically written.

GOD did NOT turn over to anybody ownership of His WORD. Further at the instant Christ's flesh body died upon that cross, the ignored miracle of that veil in the temple being rent from TOP to bottom took place.... NO longer was it prerequisite that anybody have to go before another *flesh* man to have access to the Heavenly Father, Christ became that intercessor for one and all time. Anybody tells you different then they produce NO fruit.

110 posted on 04/07/2008 5:34:25 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts

Ok, have now realized that no rational thought is involved here on your part. So, end of discussion, or should I say the lack of it. I’m dealing with a sola scriptura zealot, which means no conversation based on logic, Toodles.


111 posted on 04/07/2008 5:43:07 AM PDT by flaglady47 (Hey Obama, to quote your Preacher man, your "chickens have come home to roost")
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To: AnAmericanMother
O.K. . . . I get it. St. Irenaeus is only authoritative when he agrees with YOU.

No -- when he agrees with "the writings of the apostles" per his own words.

112 posted on 04/07/2008 5:45:36 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: flaglady47
Ok, have now realized that no rational thought is involved here on your part. So, end of discussion, or should I say the lack of it. I’m dealing with a sola scriptura zealot, which means no conversation based on logic, Toodles.

Well you may find it beneath you to actually discuss what the WORD of God says, but I suspect that you might take the time to look for yourself as to what is WRITTEN that God says who HE is....

113 posted on 04/07/2008 5:46:38 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: flaglady47; madd dawg
[ You know, I have come to the conclusion that you haven’t any idea what you are talking about, at least not with any lucidity so that we mere mortals could understand your gibberish. But, maybe it makes sense to someone, somewhere. ]

Theres no doubt about it.. I'm off the sheep farm(reservation)..
You know into the flock..

114 posted on 04/07/2008 8:00:38 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: flaglady47
[ Well, I guess those Apostles who wrote the Bible were just a bunch of sheep according to you. So you are basing your beliefs sola scriptura on a book written by sheep in a pen, as they passed down their beliefs by appointing those to keep the Christian religion going, and thus created the eventual hierarchy that became the Catholic Church. So your Bible you believe in was bleated out by a bunch of sheep who flocked together to create the Christian religion. Or was the Bible written magically, with no men involved. Maybe magical mystery men. ]

Yes.. sheep bleat and form groups whether there is a shepherd or not.. You seem to be in disarray over John ch 10.. and the sheep pens.. Thats a good sign.. Most just eat whatever the hireling gives them to eat.. and are afraid to even consider "outside" the sheep pen.. The "called out ones"(church) for several hundred years had zero bibles to read.. if they could read..

What did THEY depend on to strengthen their faith?..
Answer: the Holy Spirit

115 posted on 04/07/2008 8:12:32 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: flaglady47
[ What a joke. The Protestants started up their “religions” from the 1500’s on out of thin air, or should I say out of the somewhat demented mind of Martin Luther. ]

O.K. thats what you have been taught.. But thats not true.. non RCC Church history shows something completely different.. i.e. Foxes Book of Martyrs, Millers church history and many other sources.. Every localiy had its own group not under roman authority until about 313a.d. or so... But you would not know that if you depended on RCC authorized sources..ONLY.. The lie or "spin" that authority was handed down by the apostles from Peter is a myth..

116 posted on 04/07/2008 8:27:04 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: flaglady47
So if a “new religion” as you put it was created, it was created by Jews, those that believed the Messiah prophesized in the OT had arrived on earth.

It makes no difference. If the Torah was to be "superseded" by merely another legal system then it was unnecessary, whoever founded it.

117 posted on 04/07/2008 9:05:17 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Kol-hamishkav 'asher yishkav `alayv hazav yitma'; vekhol-hakeli 'asher-yeshev `alayv yitma'.)
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To: Just mythoughts
Paul did not condemn the Torah... As the Torah was NEVER the vehicle to salvation, rather it was the 'Divine' system by which a 'freed' people would be blessed and protected when they 'at least' sought to adhere. All but the blood sacrifices still hold "IF" an individual or a nation expects those blessings Moses described.

And it isn't "a vehicle to salvation" today because G-d did not give man a "vehicle to salvation" but commandments to repair and complete the creation. That is still man's duty today.

Most chr*stians, regardless of denomination, insist that the Torah has been "done away with" (and quote Paul to prove it). My point is that at least the antinomian "faith only" people are more consistent than those churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Arminian, restorationist, mormon, etc.) who hold that the Torah was explicitly abolished in order to pray it merely with another set of laws, rituals, and commandments.

118 posted on 04/07/2008 9:09:41 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Kol-hamishkav 'asher yishkav `alayv hazav yitma'; vekhol-hakeli 'asher-yeshev `alayv yitma'.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Most chr*stians, regardless of denomination,  insist that the Torah has been "done away with"
 
Not LCMS Lutherans - who believe Christ when He said:
Matt 5:17-20
 
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."


119 posted on 04/07/2008 10:29:20 AM PDT by LomanBill (A bird flies because the right wing opposes the left.)
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To: hosepipe

“But you would not know that if you depended on RCC authorized sources..ONLY.. The lie or “spin” that authority was handed down by the apostles from Peter is a myth.”

I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran. Catholicism came later. Half my family was Lutheran, half Catholic, so I probably have experienced the effects of the Reformation a lot more than you have, right in my own family.


120 posted on 04/07/2008 10:06:10 PM PDT by flaglady47 (Hey Obama, to quote your Preacher man, your "chickens have come home to roost")
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To: Zionist Conspirator

“It makes no difference. If the Torah was to be “superseded” by merely another legal system then it was unnecessary, whoever founded it.”

Obviously the Jews that followed Christ thought otherwise.


121 posted on 04/07/2008 10:07:31 PM PDT by flaglady47 (Hey Obama, to quote your Preacher man, your "chickens have come home to roost")
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To: Zionist Conspirator
It makes no difference. If the Torah was to be "superseded" by merely another legal system then it was unnecessary, whoever founded it.

That's interesting. What are your thoughts on God superceding Creation with a Flood and repopulation of the earth? As a Noachide, surely you don't believe that just because God ordained something, He won't decide to turn it upside down and do something new, do you?

122 posted on 04/08/2008 7:19:17 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: hosepipe
O.K. thats what you have been taught.. But thats not true.. non RCC Church history shows something completely different.. i.e. Foxes Book of Martyrs, Millers church history and many other sources.. Every localiy had its own group not under roman authority until about 313a.d. or so... But you would not know that if you depended on RCC authorized sources..ONLY.. The lie or "spin" that authority was handed down by the apostles from Peter is a myth..

You are correct that Protestantism didn't just start in the 1500's. Protestantism came under various and sundry other heresies such as Montanism, Arianism, Gnosticism, Docetism, etc. etc. etc. You certainly have good company among the heretics.

The lie or "spin" that authority was handed down by the apostles from Peter is a myth..

Proof for this claim? Or does Protestant Tradition suffice?

123 posted on 04/08/2008 7:27:01 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: Just mythoughts
God sure did allow Luther and those Protestants to go their way, so apparently He did not intend for Catholic rule over this globe.

That's a mystifying conclusion to come to.

Topic: God allowed the Romans to crucify His Son, therefore, APPARENTLY, God was a fan of Roman justice. Discuss.

124 posted on 04/08/2008 7:34:31 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: Rutles4Ever; Heretic; satan
[ Protestantism came under various and sundry other heresies such as Montanism, Arianism, Gnosticism, Docetism, etc. etc. etc. You certainly have good company among the heretics. ]

True but the most famous heretic of all is the Roman Catholic.. because of the screwball ceremonys, sacraments, and just plain old Penn and Teller Christianity performed..

But whos perfect.. so they are a "little" wierd..
Just cross yourself, splash some holy water and keep on churchin..
The RCC are a little 3 stooges'ific but thank god for the entertainment value..

125 posted on 04/08/2008 8:04:50 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Rutles4Ever
As a Noachide, surely you don't believe that just because God ordained something, He won't decide to turn it upside down and do something new, do you?

As a child of the Reformation ... certainly not.

126 posted on 04/08/2008 8:22:24 AM PDT by Quester
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To: Quester
As a child of the Reformation ... certainly not.

Heh, Jesus promised His Church would never fall, so if you're insinuating that Jesus turned His Church upside down, you're only calling Him a liar. We can go on for another 800 posts on the immense latitude you'll apply to the definition of the word "Church", but suffice to say, we'll disagree.

God never made any promises that there wouldn't be an Earth v 2.0 or a fulfillment of the Torah in the new covenant. He did promise that He would never destroy the earth again with the waters of a flood. In fulfillment of this promise, He's continually saving the Earth through the life-giving waters of Christ.

127 posted on 04/08/2008 8:47:03 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: hosepipe
True but the most famous heretic of all is the Roman Catholic.. because of the screwball ceremonys, sacraments, and just plain old Penn and Teller Christianity performed..

Heresy can't be defined unless there is a standard. That standard has always been found in the Church at Rome.

Now, since you seem content to drag out the stereotypical Protestant, papal-phobic sewage that used to earn a lot of mileage for the Klan back in the day, I'm curious why you cling to Protestant Tradition and violate your own sacrosanct belief in Scripture alone? Care to answer, or will we be regaled with more witty flare such as "3 stooges'ific" and "screwball ceremonys" (sic)?

128 posted on 04/08/2008 8:52:36 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: Rutles4Ever
It makes no difference. If the Torah was to be "superseded" by merely another legal system then it was unnecessary, whoever founded it.

That's interesting. What are your thoughts on God superceding Creation with a Flood and repopulation of the earth? As a Noachide, surely you don't believe that just because God ordained something, He won't decide to turn it upside down and do something new, do you?

How did He do anything new? The entire Torah, Genesis to Deuteronomy, was written by G-d 974 generations before the Creation of the World. There is thus no prior religion or prior "testament" since the Torah given to Moses at Sinai contained all of Genesis.

Moreover, the Laws given to Adam are still in effect for all non-Jews. The only change was that after the Flood man was given permission to kill animals for food (before this it was forbidden) provided no meat be taken from an animal while it is still alive. These same Seven Noachide Laws were reaffirmed at Sinai when the Ultimate Revelation was given. So how has anything changed, other than the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob meriting to be given the 613 commandments?

Also, just as there is no prior "testament" in existence predating the Holy Torah, there is no religious community practicing a pre-Mosaic religion for the Torah to have "superseded" (the "Samaritans," sometimes invoked as such a community, claim to be Mosaic and not remnants of a pre-Mosaic religion which Torah superseded).

And finally, if G-d is going to be continually "changing His mind" and starting over, where will it end? With J*sus? Mohammed? J. Smith? Sun Myung Moon? As the old saying goes, 'im ken, 'ein ladavar sof ("if that were so, there would be no end to the matter").

129 posted on 04/08/2008 8:58:26 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Kol-hamishkav 'asher yishkav `alayv hazav yitma'; vekhol-hakeli 'asher-yeshev `alayv yitma'.)
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To: Rutles4Ever
Topic: God allowed the Romans to crucify His Son, therefore, APPARENTLY, God was a fan of Roman justice. Discuss.

Hebrews 2:14 gives a statement of purpose as to the 'why' (14) Forasmuch then as the children are *partakers* of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; (Christ came into the flesh just as was required of the children John 3:3 not as angels)

(14 cont'd & reason) 'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Psalms 22 penned around a thousand years before the event described and Christ quoted while upon the cross...

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? "that is to say, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

Psalms 22:1 My GOD, my GOD, why hast thou forsaken me?.... then King David continues to describe what would take place and in verse 31 David ends with the words ".....That He hath done this" which is recorded in John 19:30 with Christ saying "It is finished".

No flesh being could have planned and even predicted what would take place and Christ was giving witness to the testimony already foretold around a thousand years before the event.

I suppose some could describe God was a fan of Roman justice. Three of the Gospels did record Christ to say "render therefore unto Caesar....." so there is no doubt that Rome was allowed to be the governing body that did in fact accomplish the demanded deed.

130 posted on 04/08/2008 9:04:02 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Rutles4Ever
; Now, since you seem content to drag out the stereotypical Protestant, papal-phobic sewage that used to earn a lot of mileage for the Klan back in the day, ]

Ah! the Klan.. a christian organization, they say..
True the Klan did murder a few, maybe more than a few..
But they are not alone there.. The so-called papists did too..
Many psuedo christian groups did the same...

Generates a question... Just WHOM is a christian?..
What IS a christian?.. What makes YOU a christian?..

The answer(s) could start ANOTHER WAR..
Are heretics killing heretics a BAD THING?...

131 posted on 04/08/2008 9:10:03 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Rutles4Ever
Heh, Jesus promised His Church would never fall, so if you're insinuating that Jesus turned His Church upside down, you're only calling Him a liar.

Not true.

Jesus turning His church upside down ... is not the same as His church falling ... as the following NT scripture illustrates ...
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

132 posted on 04/08/2008 9:17:46 AM PDT by Quester
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To: Petronski
I really just need the one reason: the jaw-smashing paradox that “sola scriptura” does not appear in Scripture.

It's right there with the trinity.

133 posted on 04/08/2008 9:18:36 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
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To: Always Right
The whole debate is disingenuous. Luther did not really advocate 'Scriptures alone', he advocated that Scriptures were the highest authority and should be open to the masses to read.

There must be a bit more to it because this allows the RCC to invent doctrine out of whole cloth, like Marianism.

134 posted on 04/08/2008 9:22:40 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
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To: Rutles4Ever
[ I'm curious why you cling to Protestant Tradition and violate your own sacrosanct belief in Scripture alone? ]

Who is the protestant?..

Those protesting Romes authority over worldwide christianity?(various)..
OR those protesting the authority of the Bible to designate who is a christian at all(RCC)?..

Many protest many things.. The sheep pens in John ch 10 is about protestation..
For that is what a sheep pen is.. a protestation.. (of something)..

The flock outside of the sheep pen(s) makes it all quite simple.. Ps 23...

135 posted on 04/08/2008 10:33:03 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: big'ol_freeper

FYI, Joel Peters has a version of this published by Tan Books and Publishers. Excellent work that shows unequivocably, via scripture itself, why Sola Scriptura is bunk.


136 posted on 01/06/2009 4:29:23 PM PST by bdeaner
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