Posted on 04/23/2008 12:10:30 AM PDT by kaehurowing
Why I left the Episcopal Church by Dr Moheb Ghali
April 22nd, 2008
Occasionally I am asked why I found it necessary, after four decades of committed service, to leave the Episcopal Church. My answer is: I had to choose whom to believe. On many issues central to my faith what Jesus and the Apostles say and what the leaders of the Episcopal Church say are incompatible. I chose to believe in what Jesus and the Apostles say, and that made it necessary to leave the Episcopal Church.
The Bishops of the Church, who are the Ecclesiastical Authorities in their dioceses, the successors to the Apostles and the guardians of faith, speak for the Church on matters of faith and doctrine (see: examination of Bishop-elect at Consecration on authority to interpret the Gospel; Canon 12.3(b) on authority to issue pastoral letters on points of doctrine, discipline or worship; Lambeth 1948 on the locus of the dispersed authority being the episcopate; and Archbishop of Canterbury’s October 14, 2007 letter to Bishop Howe on the organ of union with the wider Church being the Bishop and the Diocese). Their public statements interpreting the Gospel and doctrine, unless repudiated by Church councils, may be taken as representing the Church’s positions. In what follows I compare examples of the positions expressed by Episcopal Bishops, theologians and other Church leaders on ten issues, positions that have not been repudiated by councils of the Episcopal Church, with the positions found in Scripture. I use statements by Presiding Bishops, both current and former, with greater frequency as I consider the public views of the presiding officer of the House of Bishops to be representatives of views of the majority of its members.
I. IS JESUS THE ONLY WAY?
JESUS: “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” [John 14:6]
PETER: “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." [Acts 4:12]
PAUL “Therefore God exalted (Jesus) to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” [Philippians 2:9-11]
EPISCOPAL CHURCH LEADERS: “In its narrow construction, it tends to eliminate other possibilities. In its broader construction, yes, human beings come to relationship with God largely through their experience of holiness in other human beings. Through seeing God at work in other people’s lives. In that sense, yes, I will affirm that statement. But not in the narrow sense, that people can only come to relationship with God through consciously believing in Jesus” [Presiding Bishop, Arkansas Democrat Gazette, January 2007].
“Christians understand that Jesus is the route to God. Umm– that is not to say that Muslims, or Sikhs, or Jains, come to God in a radically different way. They come to God through… human experience… through human experience of the divine. Christians talk about that in terms of Jesus.” “For Christians, we say that our route to God is through Jesus. That doesn’t mean that a Hindu doesn’t experience God except through Jesus. It says that Hindus and people of other faith traditions approach God through their own cultural contexts; they relate to God, they experience God in human relationships, as well as ones that transcend human relationships; and Christians would say those are our experiences of Jesus, of God through the experience of Jesus.” [Presiding Bishop, NPR interview: Here & Now, October 18, 2006].
“We who practice the Christian tradition understand him as our vehicle to the divine. But for us to assume that God could not act in other ways is, I think, to put God in an awfully small box.”[Presiding Bishop, Time, July 10, 2006]
“The Incarnation God is one for us. But is Christ God’s final act? We can’t say that because we cannot see the future. We don’t know what God will do next to redeem us. The Bible tells us that the Kingdom of God has not yet come.” [Bishop of Pennsylvania, Virtue on Line, November 29, 2005]
“When Jesus says to Nicodemus You must be born again from above, what might he mean? I think it is a way of the gospel is saying that Jesus is a venue, an event, an experience, and an instance in which life is renewed, in which every human being as access to new life.” [Presiding Bishop, ABC Radio, The Religion Report, 26 July 2006]
“. . . I see the pre-Easter Jesus as a Jewish mystic who knew God, and who, as a result, became a healer, wisdom teacher and prophet of the kingdom of God. The latter led to his being killed by the authorities who ruled his world. But I do not think he proclaimed or taught an extraordinary status for himself. The message of the pre-Easter Jesus was about God and the kingdom of God, and not about himself.” [Dr. Marcus Borg, Co-Director of Center for Spiritual Development at Trinity Episcopal Cathedral Portland, and former President of the Anglican Association of Biblical Scholars, Washington Post, December 30, 2006]
"I don’t think God cares if we are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist and so forth. What matters is a deepening relationship with God." [Dr. Marcus Borg, St. Petersburg Times, February 9, 2005]
MY CONCLUSION: Should I believe that Jesus is The Way as He claimed to be? Or should I believe that He is “a vehicle to the divine”? If He is a “vehicle” there is no advantage of choosing Him over other available vehicles, thus there is no reason to be a Christian or an Episcopalian. I choose to believe Him and in Him.
II. IS JESUS THE SON OF GOD?
JESUS: “They all asked, ‘Are you then the Son of God?’ He replied, ‘You are right in saying I am.’" [Luke 22:70].
“I am God’s Son. Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.” [John: 10:36-37].
JOHN:
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” [John 20:31]
PETER:
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [Matthew 16:16]
PAUL:
“Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God–the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. [Romans 1:1-4]
EPISCOPAL CHURCH LEADERS:
“Rather, I see the grand statements about Jesus — that he is the son of God, the Light of the World and so forth — as the testimony of the early Christian movement. These are neither objectively true statements about Jesus nor, for example in this season, about his conception and birth. To speak of him as the son of God does not mean that he was conceived by God and had no biological human father. Rather, this is the post-Easter conviction of his followers."[Dr. Marcus Borg, Washington Post, December 30, 2006]
“It’s not about having answers as much as it is about engaging a story. It is about your story and how your story connects to an ancient story of desert wanderers that, in time, came to see that humanity and this energy they called God mingled and existed through Christ and thus, exists in all of humanity.” [The Episcopal Church web site, Visitors Center, “Spiritual but not Religious”]
MY CONCLUSION:
If Jesus claimed that His works are the evidence that He is the Son of God, and if John and Peter, who personally knew Jesus, believed that He is the Son of God, what evidence is there that would lead me to refute their statements in favor of those of someone who does know Jesus as Peter and John did?
III. THE RESURRECTION
JESUS:
"We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"[Matthew 20: 18,19]
PETER:
“This man (Jesus) was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. [Acts 2:23-25]
PAUL:
“For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born… And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.”[1 Corinthians 15:3-8, 17]
EPISCOPAL CHURCH LEADERS:
“The story of Jesus’ bodily resurrection is, at best, conjectural; that the resurrection accounts in the four Gospels are contradictory and confusing… the significance of Easter is not that Jesus returned to actual life but that even death itself could not end the power of his presence in the lives of the faithful.” [Bishop of Diocese of Washington, D.C., Easter sermon in 2002]
“Asked about the literal story of Easter and the Resurrection, Jefferts Schori said, ‘I think Easter is most profoundly about meaning, not mechanism.’" [Episcopal Life on line (official newspaper of TEC), April 8, 2008]
MY CONCLUSION:
If Jesus was not raised from the dead, there is not a chance that I would be either. And if there is no resurrection why believe anything else Scripture promises? If the promises in Scripture are lies and deceptions, why should anyone become a Christian? I chose to be a Christian because I believe in the Resurrection.
IV. THE BIBLE:
JESUS:
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” [Luke 21:33]
PAUL:
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” [2 Timothy 3:16-17]
PETER:
“Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”[2 Peter 1:20-21]
EPISCOPAL CHURCH LEADERS:
“And while I think we would all say as our ordination liturgy has us say – those of us who are ordained – that we believe that the Old and New Testament contain all things necessary to salvation, there is a broad interpretation of what precisely that means in actual terms as one looks at various issues and concerns in the life of the church. … So when we think about church, I think many of us think first of all about that sacramental experience rather than the Book” [Former Presiding Bishop, AAC Equipping the Saints 2007]
“…I don’t think the Scripture writers had any notion of homosexuality…So you’re dealing with a reality that isn’t reflected in Scripture. Is this possibly an instance where we’ve learned something that takes us beyond the world of the Bible and therefore the texts used don’t really apply?” [Former Presiding Bishop, 2004 Beliefnet.com interview].
“Because we live in different cultural situations, not all biblical commandments or proscriptions apply simply or in the same way to any one person or situation.” [The Episcopal Church Center, To Set Our Hope on Christ, authored at the invitation of Presiding Bishop by a commission of six theology professors from four theological seminaries, and a bishop.]
"We wrote the Bible, we can rewrite the bible." [Bishop of Pennsylvania, sermon at The Church of the Good Samaritan in Paoli, reported in: Virtue on Line, November 29, 2005]
"The Scriptures are internally contradictory on the surface. Their interpretation varies according to the needs of the hearer."[Bishop of Pennsylvania, St. Luke’s Church, Newtown, PA July 8, 2004.]
“I believe the Bible is a book of poetry with a lot of history in it. I believe the Prayer Book has all that one needs for salvation. I believe that an all-loving God would never send anyone to hell for eternity. I believe he works it out in the end for everyone.” [Bishop of Lexington, at meeting with St John’s Parish, Versailles, KY, reported in Still On Patrol, March 14, 2008]
“So I think there is no question of devaluing Scripture; I think it’s a question of accepting the fact that Scripture doesn’t presuppose every eventuality, nor does it transcend being in some ways historically limited by those who wrote the words — their worldview, their understanding of human reality. Jesus in the Gospel of John says, "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now; however, the spirit of truth will come and will draw from what is mine and reveal it to you." So it is clear as I read the Bible that truth is an unfolding reality and is not simply fixed or circumscribed at a particular moment or by the pages of Scripture itself. The Holy Spirit can transcend the words that the Holy Spirit has inspired and lead us to new understandings and new appreciations.” [Former Presiding Bishop, Comments following the House of Bishops meeting January 2005, Religion and Ethics Newsweekly]
“There is no single biblical morality. Few biblical scholars would claim that a monochromatic approach to ethics and human behavior exists in the Holy Scriptures…The Holy Scriptures, written in antiquity, could not and did not foresee many of the ethical questions we face in our age.” [A Statement from the Episcopal Diocese of Utah, General Convention, March 13, 2007]
MY CONCLUSION:
If the Bishops of the Church are correct, why do they have us read passages from the Bible every Sunday and have us listen to sermons expounding on those passages? If I should not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, where should I go to find the word of God? This is a fundamental issue that underlies many of the issues addressed above. For if Scripture is not the inspired word of God, then one cannot rely on Scriptural witness that Jesus is the Son of God, or that He was raised from the dead. If Jesus is not the Son of God and if He was not raised from the dead, then He, at best, is one of many vehicles to the divine. I believe that Scripture is the inspired word of God and as I read the Scripture I do know that God speaks to me.
V. SALVATION:
JESUS:
“I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.” [John 10:9]
PAUL:
“That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved… Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[Romans 10:9, 13]
PETER:
"Salvation is found in no one else (but Jesus), for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."[Acts 4:12]
“No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."” [Acts 15:11]
EPISCOPAL CHURCH LEADERS:
“The question is always how can we get beyond our own narrow self-interest and see that our
salvation lies in attending to the needs of other people.” [Presiding Bishop, Parabola, Spring 2007].
“Holiness and wholeness and health all come from the same root in English, and they’re related quite intimately to the word ’salvation’. Living a holy life, living a whole and full life, is one of our understandings of what salvation means, and when Jesus says ‘I came that you might have life and have it abundantly’, he certainly means in the fullness of our beings, and if we understand that some people are created, are born, in this world with affections ordered toward those of the same gender, then perhaps it means we need to pay attention to that.” [Presiding Bishop, ABC Radio, The Religion Report, 26 July 2006]
MY CONCLUSION:
Does salvation lie in attending to the needs of other? Or is attending to the needs of others the result of salvation? Should I love God because I love my neighbor, or should my love for my neighbor result from my love for God? The answer is clear from the order in which Jesus summarized the Law.
VI. THE EUCHARIST:
JESUS:
“While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.” [Mark 14:22-24]
PAUL:
“Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.” [1 Corinthians 11:27-29]
“Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?” [1 Corinthians 10:16]
EPISCOPAL CHURCH LEADERS:
“Why does the church gather around a table with food and drink in its primary act of worship? Because God calls the church to a ministry of reconciliation. The church is called to restore the dignity of creation. It is all about feeding and being fed. It is all about making certain that all God’s children are safe, whole and nourished. The ritual breaking of bread in the midst of the assembly reminds us of our task while it embodies its reality.” [The Rev. Clayton Morris, Liturgical Officer for the Episcopal Church, Episcopal Life, March 31, 2008]
MY CONCLUSION:
The Passover meal was not about feeding and being fed. Rather, it was about celebrating God’s mighty act of breaking bondages of slavery. To me, the Eucharist is the participation in the body and blood of Christ to celebrate and give thanks for His mighty act in broking my bondage to sin. When the celebrant tells me “this is the Body of Christ…this is the Blood of Christ”, I believe they are.
VII. MARRIAGE
JESUS:
“"But at the beginning of creation God `made them male and female.’ `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." [Mark 10:6-9]
PAUL:
“Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.” [1 Timothy 3:2,3]
“Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.” [Hebrews 13:4]
EPISCOPAL CHURCH LEADERS:
“Resolved, That this 96th Convention of the Diocese of Olympia affirms, and calls upon the Bishops and Standing Committee of the Diocese to affirm the full inclusion in all areas of the life of the Episcopal Church of our otherwise qualified brother and sister Christians who are single or partnered heterosexual gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered persons, and those who are in non-celibate heterosexual relationships and those who are divorced, as well as the full inclusion of the Episcopal Church in the full life of the Anglican Communion.” Passed with two friendly amendments; 317 in favor, 79 against, 51 abstentions.
“For almost forty years, members of the Episcopal Church have discerned holiness in same-sex relationships and, have come to support the blessing of such unions and the ordination or consecration of persons in those unions. Christian congregations have sought to celebrate and bless same-sex unions because these exclusive, life-long, unions of fidelity and care for each other have been experienced as holy. These unions have evidenced the fruit of the Holy Spirit: “joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control” [Episcopal Church Center, To Set Our Hope on Christ, authored at the invitation of Presiding Bishop by a commission of six theology professors from four theological seminaries, and a bishop.]
“The Holy Scriptures do not speak of what we describe in The Episcopal Church as loving, faithful, monogamous, life-long commitments of two persons of the same sex, nor do they speak of the intimate sexual lives such committed persons may express with one another in their relationships. We must therefore look more deeply within as well as beyond the Holy Scriptures for guidelines that may be brought into dialogue with those passages of Scripture usually employed to address matters of sexual intimacy.” [A Statement from the Episcopal Diocese of Utah, General Convention, March 13, 2007]
MY CONCLUSION:
Jesus described God’s purpose for marriage which has not changed from the beginning of creation. His first miracle was at a wedding feast. The metaphor of a bride and groom is used repeatedly in both the Old and New Testament. To my mind this reflects the status and significance of marriage in Scripture. Extramarital committed sexual relationships whether heterosexual or homosexual do not have such status. To agree with the Episcopal Church’s position is to accept the proposition cited above that “interpretation (of Scripture) varies according to the needs of the hearer.” [Bishop of Lexington].
VIII. EVANGELISM
JESUS:
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."[Matthew 28:19,20]
PAUL:
“He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.”[2Timothy 4:2]
PETER:
“He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name..”[Acts 10: 42-43]
EPISCOPAL CHURCH LEADERS:
“The Bishop of the Episcopal diocese of Los Angeles has issued an apology to Hindus worldwide for what he called "centuries-old acts of religious discrimination by Christians, including attempts to convert them. The apology was given in a statement read to over 100 Hindu spiritual leaders at a mass from Right Reverend J John Bruno. The ceremony started with a Hindu priestess blowing a conch shell three times and included sacred chants… Rev. Karen MacQueen, who was deeply influenced by Hindu Vedanta philosophy and opposes cultivating conversions (added) "There are enough Christians in the world," [India Abroad, Posted: Feb 10, 2008.]
MY CONCLUSION:
The Episcopal Church’s position logically flows from the belief that Jesus is “a vehicle” among many alternative vehicles: it would be arrogant to deny others their choice of a vehicle and insist that they choose only our preferred one. Since I believe that Jesus is The Way, and the only way to the Father, it would be very selfish and unloving (it would be breaking the commandment to love my neighbor) if I did not share this belief with others.
IX. THE BODY OF CHRIST: THE CHURCH
PAUL:
“For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.” [Ephesians 5:23]
“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”[Colossians 1:18]
EPISCOPAL CHURCH LEADERS:
“Christians talk about the body of Christ. A theologian named Sally McFague talks about the
body of God as being all of creation. When one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers. That’s an essential piece of Paul’s theology. If we’re not caring adequately for the other parts of the body, we are not only destroying ourselves, but we’re destroying our neighbors here and across the world. The fact that, you know, how I use carbon might have some impact on a poor person in China. [Presiding Bishop, PBS, The Bill Moyers Journal, June 2007]
MY CONCLUSION:
This is a strange religion. There is no support in Scripture to the concept that the body of God is all creation (recall that part of creation is the Lucifer and his minions and dominion). When Paul writes about the body of Christ he is explicitly referring to the Church. When Paul writes the words used by the Presiding Bishop: ‘If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it” it is very clear that he is talking about Church, not about environmental concerns.
X. THE CREEDS:
EPISCOPAL CHURCH:
“Those creeds are not about checking off a bunch of propositions. They are about giving our
heart to a sense that Jesus shows us what it looks like to be a divine human being”[Presiding
Bishop, Parabola Spring 2007].
“You don’t all have to profess exactly the same understandings of the central tenets of the faith,” she added. “What’s important is to worship together.” [Presiding Bishop, San Diego.co, by Union-Tribune, April 5, 2008]
MY CONCLUSION:
If the creeds are not important, we should stop reciting them on Sundays. The worship service on Sunday, if we accept the number of premises presented above by leaders of the Episcopal Church, would have no Scripture reading, hopefully no sermon expounding on the Scripture, no recital of creeds and no Eucharist. We would just have a great time reading poetry, feeding and being fed.
[Dr. Moheb Ghali was a member of the Episcopal Church for over 40 years. He served as Senior Warden for terms totaling 15 years, was delegate to conventions and served on Diocesan Councils with three Bishops in Hawaii. He taught Sunday School classes, adult Bible classes, and lead home fellowships. For the past year Ghali has been a member of St. Brendan’s Anglican Church: www.stbrendansanglicanchurch.org]
Oh, you mean like Mormonism?
<-— Episcopalian
Jesus is Head of the Church, not a pope, bishop, or Synod. His God Breathed Word is superior to man made interpretations made to fit God into a man's "box". God is the God of the Bible, not our made up wishy washy "hippie" image in our own minds.
There are people going to Heaven, and people going to Hell. Sometimes it's rough to think some of our friends and relatives may not make it, but trying to interpret Scripture to accommodate what we want doesn't change the Will of God.
Bump to self for a later read.
I left the PC(USA) for similar reasons.
“Sometimes it’s rough to think some of our friends and relatives may not make it”
Or even ourselves, right?
Ummm...the good doctor left the Episcopal church for the Anglican Church, which is a church with robes, and collars...
ping
I've read the Bible and it says I'm going. I can have confidence in what God says, not what men say. God is faithful with His promises. You can be sure of your salvation if you just read what God has done for you. If you aren't sure, you can be.Nope, you don't know that. This whole "Salvation is a club I can get into just by believing" meme is one of the worst modern heresies.
This entire article is unfair to the church. Dr. Ghali finds a handful of contrarian viewpoints which supposedly speak for the church on all matters and in so doing contradict scripture. Well, they don’t. I’ve been an Episcopalian since grade school (in the People’s Republic of Oregon, no less) and I’ve never heard any of this. But just so we’re clear:
I. IS JESUS THE ONLY WAY?
“They also are to be had accursed that presume to say, That every man shall be saved by the Law or Sect which he professeth, so that he be diligent to frame his life according to that Law, and the light of Nature. For Holy Scripture doth set out unto us only the Name of Jesus Christ, whereby men must be saved.”
-Book of Common Prayer, pg. 871
II. IS JESUS THE SON OF GOD?
“Q: What do we mean when we say that Jesus is the only Son of God?
A: We mean that Jesus is the only perfect image of the Father, and shows us the nature of God.
Q: What do we mean when we say that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and became incarnate from the Virgin Mary?
A: We mean that by God’s own act, his divine Son received our human nature from the Virgin Mary, his mother.”
-An Outline of the Faith, Commonly Called Catechism, BCP, pg. 849
III. THE RESURRECTION
“Q: What is the significance of Jesus’ resurrection?
A: By his resurrection, Jesus overcame death and opened for us the way of eternal life.
Q: What do we mean when we say that he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father?
A: We mean that Jesus took our human nature into heaven where he now reigns with the Father and intercedes for us.”
-Catechism, BCP, pg. 850
“Christ did truly rise again from death, and took again his body, with flesh, bones, and all things appertaining to the perfection of Man’s nature; wherewith he ascended into Heaven, and there sitteth, until he return to judge all Men at the last day.”
-BCP, pg. 868
IV. THE BIBLE
“Q: What are the Holy Scriptures?
A: The Holy Scriptures, commonly called the Bible, are the books of the Old and New Testaments; other books, called the Apocrypha, are often included in the Bible.
Q: Why do we call the Holy Scriptures the Word of God?
A: We call them the Word of God because God inspired their human authors and because God still speaks to us through the Bible.
Q: How do we understand the meaning of the Bible?
A: We understand the meaning of the Bible by the help of the Holy Spirit, who guides the Church in the true interpretation of the Scriptures.”
-BCP, Pg. 853-854
V. SALVATION
“Q: What, then, is our assurance as Christians?
A: Our assurance as Christians is that nothing, not even death, shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen.”
BCP, Pg. 862
VI. THE EUCHARIST
“Q: What is the Holy Eucharist?
A: The Holy Eucharist is the sacrament commanded by Christ for the continual remembrance of his life, death, and resurrection, until his coming again.
Q: What is the outward and visible sign in the Eucharist?
A: The outward and visible sign in the Eucharist is bread and wine, given and received according to Christ’s command.
Q: What is the inward and spiritual grace given in the Eucharist?
A: The inward and spiritual grace in the Holy Communion is the Body and Blood of Christ give to his people, and received by faith.
Q: What are the benefits which we receive in the Lord’s Supper?
A: The benefits we receive are the forgiveness of our sins, the strengthening of our union with Christ and one another, and the foretaste of the heavenly banquet which is our nourishment in eternal life.”
-BCP, pg. 859-860
VII. MARRIAGE
“Q: What is Holy Matrimony?
A: Holy Matrimony is Christian marriage, in which the woman and man enter into a life-long union, make their vows before God and the Church, and receive the grace and blessing of God to help them fulfill their vows.”
-BCP, pg. 861
VIII. EVANGELISM
There’s no official position either way on this subject, so I’ll just skip it.
IX. THE BODY OF CHRIST: THE CHURCH
“Q: What is the Church?
A: The Church is the community of the New Covenant.
Q: How is the Church described in the Bible?
A: The Church is described as the Body of which Jesus Christ is the Head and of which all baptized persons are members. It is called the People of God, the New Israel, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and the pillar and ground of truth.”
-BCP, pg. 854
X. THE CREEDS
“Q: What are the creeds?
A: The creeds are statements of our basic beliefs about God.”
-BCP, pg. 851
“Counterfeit cult” indeed.
Oh, brother. Idiots like that believe that only 144,000 will be saved... and they’re going to make damned sure that there’s not one more Christian than that in the world. They invent the false claims use by every new-ager, pagan, relativist, agnostic to make war against God’s holy church, and congratulate themselves for doing it.
This is pretty arcane stuff. I was raised in Episcopal schools but left the church after they started with the gay bishops.
I don’t think there’s a thing wrong with robes and collar—or blue jeans either. The important thing is the faith. That’s exactly why our whole church walked away from Episcopal and remained Anglican (Episcopal being under the Anglican Communion).
I didn’t say there was. I was responding to chuckles, who seemed to be congratulating the doctor on leaving the robes and collars behind - which he did not, if he moved to the Anglicans.
“... trying to interpret Scripture to accommodate what we want doesn’t change the Will of God......!
Amen! I wonder why there are so many Protestant sects?????
Yeh, Jesus said “above all else DO NOT WEAR ROBES AND COLLARS.”
Ask yourself, would you have stayed in Obama's church for 20 years just to say you were Church of Christ when clearly they are closer to Farakhan's Black Muslim's? At some point you have to choose to follow Christ. Now Obama say's he believes Christ advocates homosexual marriage because it's in the Sermon on the Mount. Has he never read the Sermon on the Mount for himself? He's just another lemming following the piper into Hell.
I was a life-long Episcopalian:baptized, confirmed, served as an acolyte for 5 years and married in the church.
But the promotion of a priest who had left his wife and two daughters to shack up with his male lover, to Bishop, shattered my Episcopalian roots forever.
Now, after a 10 month journey through the RCIA process, I am a deliriously joyful Catholic.
Viva il Papa!
But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
That wacky heretic Paul! What else will he write in his Epistles?
And if you are not saved by faith, what hoops do you jump through to be saved? Chapter and verse please? Exactly what did the thief on the cross do to be saved? Are you boasting that you can do something to save yourself?
Here's one: After a priest cops, in the middle 1980's as I recall, to sexual abuse of a minor boy, the boy's parents sue the diocese. It comes up in the trial that the priest often made sacramental confession to his bishop. (It is unwise for the ordinary to hear his priests' confessions because it inhibits his ability to exercise his leadership, but that's another issue.) The judge tells the bishop,"If you don't tell me what you heard in confession, I will hold you personally in contempt and fine you $1k per day." The penitent had given his permission for confidentiality to be breached, BUT the rubrics (which, on paper -- though nobody cares, have the force of law in the Episcopal Church) are uncharacteristically and uncompromisingly clear:
The secrecy of a confession is morally absolute< for the confessor, and must under no circumstances be broken.The bishop appeals to the National Church form backup. The National Church tells him to go ahead and break the seal.BCP, page 446 (emphasis added.)
At this point I was outraged. Why had we gone through all the fuss and bother, turmoil and expense of creating a new prayer book if we were going to trounce all over it within a few years of it's being officially promulgated?
I called National Church headquarters from some kind of explanation and was told and I quote, "That's how we make theology in the Episcopal Church."
You can cite the BCP as much as you like, but if the priest in the pulpit is saying that it doesn't mean what it says it means, that "the Nicene Creed is a kind of poem," if priests are throwing consecrated wine in the myrtle bed outside the sacristy door and feeding consecrated hosts to dogs (both of these have happened and been boasted of within 40 miles of where I type this) and if the real, "on the ground" Episcopal Church theology is "made" by 815, whatever conventions and constitutional bodies may think they're doing, then the Prayer Book has become little more than the script for a kind of Protestant kabuki.
You may now think what I thought, that the BCP and other authorized documents present the "real" doctrine of Episcopalians, that we may trust that, somehow, God speaks through the councils and conventions of the Episcopal Church so that these bodies have the authority, for example, to enact a new understanding of the relationship between sex and holy orders. You may think, as I did, that if the Episcopal Church's self conception is such that her governing bodies can rightly promulgate and act on a new understanding of, say, homosexuality and marriage after divorce, then she will take her own acts with utmost seriousness as being at least efforts at a kind of continuing revelation of Divine Will (though possible erroneous efforts.)
If you think that, you will find that the overwhelmingly vast majority of Episcopalians, clerical and lay, not only disagree but consider your opinion risible. You can go to a cleric and point out where some action or some teaching of his or hers flies directly in the fact of the Constitution and Canons, or the rubrics, or the very text of the BCP. You will be met with, possibly a brief, half-hearted, and sophistical argument. When you demolish the argument you will then be given a bland "So what? I exercise 'my' ministry as I think best." (And "as I think best" really means "as my whimsy takes me.")
If you seek to serve the Lord in self-abnegation or to mortify your will in obedience to the "doctrine, discipline, and worship" of the Episcopal Church, may God bless you, but you will be very lonely.
At least since the middle 1970's candidates for ordination have solemnly signed statements of conformity to the Episcopal Church and, almost immediately, boasted that they had not intention of conforming. And these declarations are met not with deposition but with adulation.
This observation has theological implications. To perform a sacramental act not only are from and matter but also intention is necessary. There has to be some intention to do what the Church intends in the sacrament. I would suggest that the Episcopal Church has no articulable intention in Baptism, Eucharist, matrimony, or ordination. Yes there are the statements in the Catechism. But can you confidently say that a majority of the bishops or priests really, consciously, intend what the Catechism says? Or do they rather "make theology" as their current opinions direct them?
You read it wrong then. I was commenting on the robes and collars being where most of the apostasies start. They get hung up on the traditions of the church and leave the teachings behind. That certainly doesn't mean all churches do. It is just a common problem. A certain denomination isn't what saves you and wearing a certain garb doesn't give you any particular power or wisdom.
These points (resurrection, inerrancy, salvation) are NOT arcane. They are very foundational to being a Christian and should be understood thoroughly and accepted, with help from the Holy Spirit, by ALL Christians.
No, I'm betting he will say the opposite that no matter what we do (i.e. such as believe and confess) we can't be sure of our salvation because God will pick and choose who he will save.
But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.Yawn... Believing in the lord is concomitant with a lack of sin.That wacky heretic Paul! What else will he write in his Epistles?
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"(Romans 3:23) "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12)If you are genuinely *saved*(i.e. truly believe in god) then you won't sin either. Most "Churchians" use religion as a club to smack other people over the head with("Look at me! I'm more pious than you!" etc...). There are *very* few real Christians in this world.
He said do not follow the traditions of men. He railed against it. The only garb in the Bible is the dress of the priests in the Temple of the Old Testament. I'm not even sure the Jews dress like that today. I have seen the prayer shawls and the little boxes with verses in them strapped to their heads and forearms however. The only Christian sect that does that today is Jews for Jesus.
When Jesus taught in the synagogue, did He have a particular uniform to wear?
you don’t feel that real faith is faith that is put into action? That real faith, faith given to you by the grace of the Almighty, empowers you to perform works of compassion, works of mercy and works of charity?
No, I'm betting he will say the opposite that no matter what we do (i.e. such as believe and confess) we can't be sure of our salvation because God will pick and choose who he will save.Calvinism is another heresy, although quite a bit older.
Since no man is sinless, all men need the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to be saved.
And that is what Paul says. Confess and believe and you will be saved.
I’ve seen that number frequently among 7th-day adventists, also. It’s a hyper-literalist reading of Revelations.
Oh, Neville, we had much the same Journey Home. Welcome.
Since no man is sinless, all men need the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to be saved.You still don't get it. Actually *believing* in Jesus Christ comes with huge responsibilities, given selflessly. That's why people who genuinely understand what salvation means tend to engage in all sorts of austerities and good works.And that is what Paul says. Confess and believe and you will be saved.
A lot of modern Christians are "Welfare Christians". They expect to be "saved" while being a selfish couch potato.
....."then you won't sin either."......
We all sin and are saved by Grace. I don't see what you are getting at. When you are saved, God doesn't see your sin and it is cast from you as far as the east is from the west. If you sin and repent, He has already forgiven you. When Jesus died for my sin, He died for all of them, even those I will commit tomorrow. If I sin and DO NOT repent, then I will pay for them in this life, but I will still be saved. He doesn't have an "on and off again" salvation. If you have a salvation that can be lost, then it's not a real salvation. If you can loose your salvation, then your best bet would be to shoot yourself right after you confess your sins.
We all sin and are saved by Grace. I don't see what you are getting at. When you are saved, God doesn't see your sin and it is cast from you as far as the east is from the west. If you sin and repent, He has already forgiven you. When Jesus died for my sin, He died for all of them, even those I will commit tomorrow. If I sin and DO NOT repent, then I will pay for them in this life, but I will still be saved. He doesn't have an "on and off again" salvation. If you have a salvation that can be lost, then it's not a real salvation. If you can loose your salvation, then your best bet would be to shoot yourself right after you confess your sins.Sigh... the problem is you're not saved. If you were you'd know what I was talking about. Not that I'm saved either by any means, but when you meet a real Christian you'll know it. Completely selfless, completely comfortable in their own skin. Their faith abides.
True faith in god and Jesus Christ is a *revelation*. Not of the AA kind either. It's not something you say in a Church. That was the biggest points of the protestant revolution, but people have long forgotten it by now.
Do you know me? Do you know what I believe and how I practice my faith?
You deride others because they "use religion as a club to smack other people over the head with" and yet you make accusations without knowledge.
James is quite clear that faith and actions go hand in hand, and that the actions come out of faith. Paul is quite clear in explaining what the fruits of the Spirit are, and that the fruits manifest themselves because of Faith.
But instead of confirming these principles, you sow doubt and mistrust.
The poster who claimed he had assurance of salvation you insult just as you did me.
Almost everyone I know who has claimed that kind of assurance is a Christian like you claim are rare. Most of those "selfish couch-potato" Christians do not understand enough of the Bible to feel assured of their salvation. They just float along with minimal knowledge of what the scriptures say.
Paul says that there are strong and weak brothers. Those who are firm in their faith, and those who cling more to man made rules and restrictions than are necessary. But whether "strong" or "weak", he still calls them brothers. He doesn't say that their salvation is in question.
I will limit my concerns over who has enough faith to my own soul.
And I would admonish you to not sow doubt in the minds of believers.
Just a quick glance at the actual WORDS shows the 144k are 12k from each Hebrew tribe. These will be Jews that are believers after the church is raptured. I haven't heard that from the Adventists except for the ones that burned in Waco. They were the Branch Davidians off the Adventist's. I would be surprised if the regular Adventists believe that. Maybe so.
The Amish women do not cut their hair (something they interpreted from reading the bible I guess) They all wear the same uniforms (it’s that tradition thing again.) Regardless, I don’t think that is going to shake Jesus up so much. In fact, I think there will be a very large number of them in heaven.
Why do you say that I "still don't get it"? Do you know me? Do you know what I believe and how I practice my faith?Sigh... You think I haven't seen a million people like you? That you're some special unique little flower and I don't understand you?You deride others because they "use religion as a club to smack other people over the head with" and yet you make accusations without knowledge.
James is quite clear that faith and actions go hand in hand, and that the actions come out of faith. Paul is quite clear in explaining what the fruits of the Spirit are, and that the fruits manifest themselves because of Faith.
But instead of confirming these principles, you sow doubt and mistrust.
The poster who claimed he had assurance of salvation you insult just as you did me.
Almost everyone I know who has claimed that kind of assurance is a Christian like you claim are rare. Most of those "selfish couch-potato" Christians do not understand enough of the Bible to feel assured of their salvation. They just float along with minimal knowledge of what the scriptures say.
Paul says that there are strong and weak brothers. Those who are firm in their faith, and those who cling more to man made rules and restrictions than are necessary. But whether "strong" or "weak", he still calls them brothers. He doesn't say that their salvation is in question.
I will limit my concerns over who has enough faith to my own soul.
And I would admonish you to not sow doubt in the minds of believers.
I'll give you one hint. People that are truly saved almost *never* quote scripture unless *explicitly asked*. They're not "beggars telling other beggars where to find bread".
The Amish women do not cut their hair (something they interpreted from reading the bible I guess) They all wear the same uniforms (it’s that tradition thing again.) Regardless, I don’t think that is going to shake Jesus up so much. In fact, I think there will be a very large number of them in heaven.I'll go even further. If you want to see real Christianity in action, go live with the Amish.
I will pray for you that you might come to an understanding of salvation in your own life. I will pray that you will develop a personal relationship with Jesus that will allow you to hear his voice and follow the life that he wants for you.
Do you know any spirit-filled people?
I questioned a persons salvation here once and got zotted because I quoted him/her chapter and verse of why his beliefs were not of the Bible. This person is reading the Bible and preaching "works" salvation. What did the thief on the cross do in the works department? We do good works AFTER we are saved BECAUSE we are saved. OTOH, if Warren Buffet gives $37 billion to African relief to get out of paying taxes on the money, that tells me nothing about his salvation. The woman that gave the mite gave all she had and Jesus thought more of it than the 10% of the Pharisee's. I know my salvation is mine, forever, and the Scriptures back me up. If it were not the case, I would fix it toot suite. The Holy Spirit has revealed Jesus to me and I'm called to Him by the Father. I'm His, and He is mine, and it is confirmed to me daily.
I'm pretty careful to limit my conclusion as to a person's salvation and just quote Scripture if they seem to misunderstand it's principles. How he can figure I'm not saved because he's not sure he is, is beyond me. If he is looking at a persons works, he is missing the whole "boat". Telling people of Christ on FR is "works" also, and doesn't cost anything, anybody can do it, and we are commanded by Christ to spread the Gospel.
Besides, I'm in a chair, not on a couch. LOL
THANK YOU! I questioned a persons salvation here once and got zotted because I quoted him/her chapter and verse of why his beliefs were not of the Bible. This person is reading the Bible and preaching "works" salvation. What did the thief on the cross do in the works department? We do good works AFTER we are saved BECAUSE we are saved. OTOH, if Warren Buffet gives $37 billion to African relief to get out of paying taxes on the money, that tells me nothing about his salvation. The woman that gave the mite gave all she had and Jesus thought more of it than the 10% of the Pharisee's. I know my salvation is mine, forever, and the Scriptures back me up. If it were not the case, I would fix it toot suite. The Holy Spirit has revealed Jesus to me and I'm called to Him by the Father. I'm His, and He is mine, and it is confirmed to me daily.I'm not preaching works salvation. We actually agree. Works come *from* salvation they aren't the cause of it.I'm pretty careful to limit my conclusion as to a person's salvation and just quote Scripture if they seem to misunderstand it's principles. How he can figure I'm not saved because he's not sure he is, is beyond me. If he is looking at a persons works, he is missing the whole "boat". Telling people of Christ on FR is "works" also, and doesn't cost anything, anybody can do it, and we are commanded by Christ to spread the Gospel.
Besides, I'm in a chair, not on a couch. LOL
Again, I'll reiterate, genuinely salvation is a state of mind and being. It's not quoting scripture and bragging about how you're "belief" justifies your own selfishness.
My mistake. I apologize.
I will pray for you that you might come to an understanding of salvation in your own life. I will pray that you will develop a personal relationship with Jesus that will allow you to hear his voice and follow the life that he wants for you.Go for it. But I would worry more about yourself. Remember, salvation is a state of mind. It's not about being a "better" Christian than everyone else.Do you know any spirit-filled people?
Uh, where have I ever claimed to be a better Christian?
Paul talks about himself being the chief of sinners. Peter denied Christ on the day of his crucifixion.
If these are the men that were the examples of early Christians than who are we to say that we are “better” than anyone else?
But even these men knew had assurance of their salvation. They weren’t better, just redeemed, justified and sanctified. And you can be too, just pray to Jesus to forgive you of your sins, confess that he is Lord, and believe that he died and was resurrected.
Then establish a daily personal relationship with him. The works will come as your faith grows.
I will ask again, do you know any spirit-filled people?
Uh, where have I ever claimed to be a better Christian?Yup. That's how I know the difference. Let me put it this way. The Episcopalians "get it". The author of this article doesn't.Paul talks about himself being the chief of sinners. Peter denied Christ on the day of his crucifixion.
If these are the men that were the examples of early Christians than who are we to say that we are “better” than anyone else?
But even these men knew had assurance of their salvation. They weren’t better, just redeemed, justified and sanctified. And you can be too, just pray to Jesus to forgive you of your sins, confess that he is Lord, and believe that he died and was resurrected.
Then establish a daily personal relationship with him. The works will come as your faith grows.
I will ask again, do you know any spirit-filled people?
Is belief in Jesus necessary to get to heaven?
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