Skip to comments.Ark of the new covenant
Posted on 04/27/2008 6:33:53 PM PDT by markomalley
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You'd be wise not to wager anything on your incorrect assertion.
“It seems to me, that in the desperate rush to condemn the Catholic Church, many Protestants zoom in on the whole Mary thing and exaggerate and distort the teachings in order to confirm the entire basis for Protestantism, which is that the Catholic Church is false.”
Your views on “Protestantism” are way off base - you really shouldn’t assume that you understand what Protestants believe.
Show me one quote, anything, from the first or second century that in any way deals with the mother of the Lord using anything even approaching Catholic doctrine about her and I’ll take it all back.
We have a number of Vietnamese women in the parish who converted from Buddhism during the time that they fled Vietnam in unseaworthy, little, overcrowded boats. They all did the same thing — they prayed to Mary and promised that they would convert to Catholicism if they would safely arrive at their destination.
I asked them why they did not pray to Buddha to save them. Their response was that Buddha could not help them. I then asked why they didn’t pray to God because He could certainly save them. Their answer was that He was “way too high” to address their prayers to.
Then why Mary, I asked. Because she is human and she is like a mother, was the response.
You made my point. See what I wrote up above.
Any Catholic can jump in please. I'm not a Catholic, but I think you are confusing what Immaculate Conception means with the Virgin birth of Jesus. The Apostle's and Nicene creeds which some/most Protestant denominations affirm (one or both) confess that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. Mary was a virgin prior to the conception of Jesus and remained so until He was born. I think Immaculate Conception starts before and goes beyond that part of her life. Most Protestants believe Mary after Christ's birth was in every way her husband Joseph's wife.
The story I told has nothing to do with what you wrote. For your info, the very first title the Church used for Mary was “Mother of God”. This was some time in the 3rd century at a council of Ephesus (present day Turkey). Even that far back, Mary was thought to be sinless. They did not make a big deal about it because it was generally accepted and the Catholic Church did not have to compete with another Christian faith.
What happened in 1854 was different. The Catholic Church had to make a formal statement as to its belief regarding the mother of Jesus. The Pope therefore declared ex-cathedra (from the chair of Peter, and therefore infallibly) that Mary was untouched by sin from the moment of her conception by her parents — it’s just that simple.
After further review and an impeccable source, Wikipedia, the Immaculate Conception:
"The Immaculate Conception is, according to Roman Catholic dogma, the conception of Mary, the mother of Jesus without any stain of original sin, in her mother's womb: the dogma thus says that, from the first moment of her existence, she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and that she was instead filled with divine grace. It is further believed that she lived a life completely free from sin. Her immaculate conception in the womb of her mother, by normal sexual intercourse (Christian tradition identifies her parents as Sts. Joachim and Anne), should not be confused with the doctrine of the virginal conception of her son Jesus."
If the above is accurate, and I make no claim it is since it is Wikipedia, then your comment:
"It seems to me, that in the desperate rush to condemn the Catholic Church, many Protestants zoom in on the whole Mary thing and exaggerate and distort the teachings in order to confirm the entire basis for Protestantism, which is that the Catholic Church is false. For that reason, Protestants seem to need to believe in the most ridiculous exaggerations of Catholic teaching."
seems at least to be ill-advised (respectful dialogue included) at the very least.
This is what I get for not going to Wiki...this statement would be going against the concept of Mary's Perpetual Virginity, not IC. If this isn't a Catholic teaching please correct me.
You realize, FRiend, that your statement is inherently unscriptural.
4. In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word. But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise they were both naked, and were not ashamed, inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.
Iraeneus, Against Heresies (3:22)(circa 190 AD)
Since when does sin have to willful.
Lev.4: 2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
Jer.44:25] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.  Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.  Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.
About your four sources:
1. There’s an illogical assertion that suggests that since Pelagius inferred an incorrect conclusion from the docrtine of the sinlessness of Mary, that the doctrine itself is false. In fact, Augustine’s refutation of Pelagius also presumes the sinlessness of Mary.
2. I don’t know Walter Burghardt, so his opinion doesn’t mean much to me; the modern world is unfortunately full of CINO heretics. I don’t presume he is one, only that I don’t consider him a reliable source of faithful Catholic scholarship. I can’t even tell if he agrees with your assertion. I do know that his quote of St. Leo’s is quite plain to exclude Mary from its scope. For although “Men,” in many contexts includes women, “the sons of Men” is a construction which intentionally excludes women.
3. & 4. These verses are both part of the same passage, which was addressed in the original article. Both are citing prophecies from the Old Testament time to assert that Jews aren’t innately superior to Gentiles. Mary’s sinlessness neither negates the original assertion of the prophet (that he could find no righteous Jews), or St. Paul’s current assertion (that Jews were every bit as corrupt as Gentiles).
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