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To: ZGuy
Exactly so. This is my main argument with all of this invented doctrine by the Catholic Church. "Could" it have happened? Well, yeah, anything could have happened. But the question isn't "could it have happened?" the question is "did it happen?"...and what Scriptural, historical, or traditional (early Church fathers) support is there for it?

It all goes back to Mary being defined as "Theotokos" ("God bearer") and the fear that early and medieval Christians had about Jesus as the "judge". He was a harsh, threatening, judgmental, kingly figure that scared them - how could one possibly talk to Jesus? So they turn to the soft, feminine, non-threatening, mother figure of Mary. Combine that psychology with a bunch of pagans who are joining the "religion of the Empire" because its the thing to do - pagan people used to worshipping goddesses like Artemis and Aphrodite - and you can easily see where this whole Marian thing crept into the Church.

There's absolutely nothing in any of the writings of the early Church (say, pre-4th century, or so) about Mary. Nothing about her as anything other than the mother of the Lord, and showing her great respect and honor. But there's no prayers, nothing about prayers, no speaking of her as an intercessor, or an advocate, or anything else like that.

No, Marian doctrine doesn't seem to take hold and really get going until after Christianity becomes the religion of the Empire and all the pagans start joining in great numbers. The early church fathers writings don't indicate anything like what the later Marian doctrines contain.

Therefore the Marian stuff seems to be a later invention of the Church itself, with no basis in history, Scripture or early tradition from the early Church fathers.

25 posted on 04/27/2008 7:33:52 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: Boagenes
There's absolutely nothing in any of the writings of the early Church (say, pre-4th century, or so) about Mary.

You'd be wise not to wager anything on your incorrect assertion.

41 posted on 04/27/2008 9:32:07 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Boagenes
There's absolutely nothing in any of the writings of the early Church (say, pre-4th century, or so) about Mary. Nothing about her as anything other than the mother of the Lord, and showing her great respect and honor. But there's no prayers, nothing about prayers, no speaking of her as an intercessor, or an advocate, or anything else like that.

4. In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word. But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise they were both naked, and were not ashamed, inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.

Iraeneus, Against Heresies (3:22)(circa 190 AD)

51 posted on 04/28/2008 4:10:32 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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