Some here are no better in their actions!
You make fun of us but at least most LDS try to be better people.
So which best describes the behavior of many here Telestial or Terrestrial?
Posted on 04/29/2008 6:08:09 AM PDT by restornu
Ancient writings unearthed in the last century and a half, primarily in Egypt, are lending support to doctrines and teachings of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Brigham Young University professor of antiquities said Sunday.
C. Wilford Griggs, who has written extensively on Egypt and is working on excavating Christian burial grounds in Egypt, said scholars are now admitting that "Joseph Smith got into the antiquities" before experts in the field began their discoveries, but they won't accept his explanation.
Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel, but scholars are refusing to believe that, Griggs said during a fireside, "Joseph Smith and the Egyptian Connection," at the Pleasant Grove Manila Stake Center. Some of the ancient writings have been found in the past few years.
Many scholars are now admitting that the book accepted as scripture by church members is an ancient book, but as one scholar of antiquities told Griggs, he had no problem with the gold plates and Smith's story would be acceptable "if you'd get rid of that angel."
Anciently, the fountain of Christian knowledge was Egypt and the Mediterranean region and for about 1,000 years 90 percent of the people were in the faith "until they were converted to Islam by the sword," he said.
"We are being flooded with (ancient) writings," Griggs said, describing many as coming from the biblical New Testament period. Many of the writings, now totaling about 8,000, are on papyri, but others are on metal plates. None are exactly alike, which lends historical credence to the finds.
The apostles scattered throughout the known world and established pockets of Christianity after the time of Jesus Christ, including Egypt, he said. Some of the best early Christian records were found in Egypt, where they survived because of the climate.
The traditional concept that the Bible is complete came about 400 A.D., he said. Before then Christians knew that many other writings existed.
Many of the Christian teachings found in Egyptian digs that are shared in common with Smith's teachings have to do with the temple "and how the heavens can be open to us," Griggs said.
Among those findings is the teaching of baptism by proxy for folks who have died without learning of Christ and his gospel, which centers on the resurrection.
Anciently, baptism was known as a "sealing" to go to heaven, he said. The word "sealing" is used today in LDS temples in similar fashion.
Most of the writings which have now been found were secret anciently and held back from the people until they proved their worthiness.
Some speak of the potential of their divinity, also a common theme Smith taught, which the first LDS prophet said was given to him by revelation.
"Several of the gospels ... show that revelation was alive and well in the ancient world. Revelation was a keystone," Griggs said.
Yet centuries later, revelation and temples were denounced by religious leaders, including Augustine, as unnecessary.
Names, please.
Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel,
May I assume there's some good reason the "many" are not named?
This one sentence qualifies the whole piece as hogwash.
Guy needs a cup of Mormon Coffee.
Badly.
Excuse me, but this is FreeRepublic where articles are posted and then the floor is opened for discussion, posting of additional corroborating information, etc.
If you don’t think it needs to be discussed, then by all means let’s have the moderator lock this thread. Then if anyone thinks this article is worthy of discussion, someone else will just start a new thread where we can hash out the merits of this fascinating Joseph Smith finding.
This is LDS caucus a closed session it is not open for debate it LDS News.
Please respect this thread!
I have never barge in on other closed threads to disrupt do you not believe in the golden rule!
“I hear an strange echo of the story of an arab man in a cave.”
Indeed.
As did Muhammed, Joseph Smith made it all up. He “wrote the book” by himself.
Fortunately for us, he left out the parts about jihad.
- John
Who are the scholars mentioned in the article?
I would also be interested in a line by line comparison of the ancient writings that were apparently discovered recently to the specific claims of Smith that historians traditionally dispute.
One of the things that ended my study of Mormon teaching was that archeology and other fields fo study seemed to very easily discredit not the doctrine revealed to Smith, but the story of how it made it from the Holy Land into Smith’s hands. If scholars have actually found objective proof to the contrary, that would be very interesting.
Open forum, open discussion. Take it to your own web site if that’s what you want.
It is a thread claiming to set forth scientific knowledge in the field of archaeology and philology.
Flaming any thread is never a good idea, and it is surely not flaming to inquire as to the reliability of the scientific data and alleged scholarly consensus put forward on the thread.
For example, the article says: "Anciently, baptism was known as a 'sealing' to go to heaven, he said."
Among which ancients was baptism known as "sealing"? Certainly not to the authors of the New Testament, who never use the word "seal" (sphragis) to describe baptism (baptisma).
Fortunately for us, he left out the parts about jihad.
3. “Closed” threads on the Religion Forum include devotionals, prayer threads and caucuses. The header of the thread should make it obvious that the thread is closed, i.e. like a church meeting behind closed doors. Such assemblies will not be disturbed. Any challenges or ridicule will be removed. Any thread can be designated a caucus - e.g. labeled as a “[Catholic Caucus]” or “[LDS Caucus]” - provided that neither the article nor any of the posts challenge [*see footnote] or ridicule any other confession. These are “safe harbors” for those who are easily offended or are ill equipped to defend their own confession.
It is disingenuous to complain that your confession is being maligned when you are NOT using the caucus designation to protect the thread from challenges!
Religion Moderator web page
http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/
I have ridiculed no one.
What I have done is asked for more background on the archaeological and philological claims made in the article.
“Most of the writings which have now been found were secret anciently and held back from the people until they proved their worthiness. “
Sounds like these unnamed “scholars” found some more Gnostic writings.
Yes, I agree. This is not a typical "devotional" when such claims as "Anciently, the fountain of Christian knowledge was Egypt..." are made. Certainly posters can continue to be respectful, but to make the claim that the "fountainhead" of Christianity and its knowledge is Egypt is way off base.
Certainly, what the article states--Some of the best early Christian records were found in Egypt, where they survived because of the climate--is true...as the Coptic Christian church in Egypt has done a good job in preserving artifacts.
I think the problem is, in part, this new FR format that throws both headline and text of comments up on the screen, regardless of any caucus designations.
To see something like this article scroll by and expect people to ignore the challenge of it is not realistic, or even fair, despite any protective notion of a caucus designation. I mean, honestly, if somebody posted an article titled “Conclusive Proof That Joseph Smith Was Full of Crap,” I wouldn’t expect LDS members to see that and not come in and challenge it, even if it was tagged “Christian Caucus” or even something like “Anti-Mormon Caucus” that supposedly shields the piece from debate.
Listen, you've picked an article that (a) talks about pre-Mormonism (pre-1830 history); and (b) pretends to speak for Christianity about where the "fountainhead" of our knowledge is (claiming Egypt).
Do you mean to seriously tell us that if I posted an article saying the true source of Mormonism wasn't Joseph Smith--that its "fountainhead" were other sources--that Mormons wouldn't be able to comment as long as I attached "caucus" status to it?
I would guess that you are correct, since the Gnostic mystery religions of the Mediterranean in the Hellenistic period usually had such worthiness requirements for being initiated into deeper knowledge, etc.
These degrees of intiation are echoed today in various Masonic organizations as well as in recently invented religions like "A Course Of Miracles" that Oprah Winfrey has recently been peddling.
The following statements certainly sound like "challenges" to Christianity:
The traditional concept that the Bible is complete came about 400 A.D., he said. Before then Christians knew that many other writings existed.
Most of the writings which have now been found were secret anciently and held back from the people until they proved their worthiness.
Some speak of the potential of their divinity, also a common theme Smith taught, which the first LDS prophet said was given to him by revelation.
Yet centuries later, revelation and temples were denounced by religious leaders, including Augustine, as unnecessary.
And don’t forget Scientology.
Of course it offers no physical proof of these discoveries. Does someone at least have photographs of these discoveries or have they been secreted away like the golden plates?
Religion Moderator
*Footnote on Caucuses
When we first began using Caucus labels to close threads in the interest of providing “safe harbor,” the Calvinists posted several articles which represented what the Catholics believe. Several Catholics strongly objected to such a thread qualifying for a closed caucus. Other posters agreed and so did I.
After much discussion on thread, we determined that a caucus thread cannot be used as cover to take shots at another confession, argue against other confessions’ doctrines and traditions and so on. The other confession has an interest in rebutting statements made “against” it - no matter how mild those statements might be.
Factual statements alone cannot remove a caucus protection, e.g. the current Pope is named Benedict, Martin Luther died in 1546, etc.
But when a poster of another confession protests that statements made in a Caucus are incomplete, inaccurate, a strawman or whatever – and I determine those statements to have merit - the Caucus label must be removed so that rebuttals can be made.
Re: I have never barge in on other closed threads to disrupt do you not believe in the golden rule!
The golden rule? Oh is that where the one with the “Golden Plates” makes the rules. Guess I’d have to see the Golden Plates first.
If you mean by Golden Rule, “Do unto others as you’d have them to unto you,” then yes, I would want others to know the Truth (Jesus Christ), as I have come to know Him.
Jesus (the Truth) came to set the captives free.
I read the Book of Mormon, and although I was open-minded about it, it soon became apparent that it was a novel in biblical style, and making a case for the conquest and subjugation of the indians and other dark-skinned races.
“This is LDS caucus a closed session it is not open for debate it LDS News.
Please respect this thread!
I have never barge in on other closed threads to disrupt do you not believe in the golden rule!
“
Speak English and use proper punctuation and grammar??
What if the title to a thread was:
Ancient writings support atheist doctrine and teachings (Atheist Caucus)
Would it be disingenuous for Christians to ask that the caucus designation be removed and for proof of these writings?
BINGO
Should this really have “caucus” status?
The article does not explicitly state, but seems to imply, that there have been discovered purportedly Christian writings which predate the canonical New Testament texts and which contain doctrines that conform to LDS theology.
Is the argument that these texts are simply fragments of or paraphrases of the Book Of Mormon?
Or is the argument that these texts supplement the Book Of Mormon?
If so, this would be an enormous archaeological breakthrough.
To date there has never been found a non-canonical Christian document that definitively predates the canonical documents. The only non-canonical document that any claim can be made for at all is the purported "Gospel Of Thomas", but even the earliest daters of that text give a compositional range that falls after the composition of the canonical Gospels on the late end. There are no internal historical details in the Thomas text that give any clue to when it was written and the parallels between the layout of Thomas and the Diatessaron indicate that it was probably cribbed from the Diatessaron - which is a much more well-attested text - some time in the 170s or 180s.
So if papyri were found that are undeniably Christian and likely predate the canonical texts, this would be a major finding that would be reported in organs besides The Deseret News.
I really wish the article had given more concrete details of who found these texts, exactly where they were found, which scholars have made these analytical comments, etc.
My question has always been that if Mormonism was brought to America, why didn't European explorers find a continent inhabited by Mormons? Why did it fail?
Just a thought for discussion.
Native American language is not Semitic but Asiatic.
Native American genetics is not Semitic but Asiatic.
None of the historic events, peoples or civilizations described in the Book of Mormon have found any outside corroboration.
Believe with faith if you must, but lets not insult the truth by saying it conforms to your faith; it does not.
Mormons are great people though, my hat is off to them for their strong faith, strong families, and strong ties to the GOP.
I agree, this would be an incredible discovery and there would at least be pictures.
Of course I still have problems with the claim that Egypt was the “fountain” of Christian knowledge for a thousand years.
HOWEVER. Keep it respectful and debate or discuss like adults. I don't have patience for disrespect today.
Due to the excerpt posted by wagglebee, which compares LDS beliefs to non-LDS beliefs and in particular Augustine - the caucus label will be removed and the thread opened for discussion.
What on earth does the "golden rule" have to do with this situation. If I was posting an article like this I would want people to freely comment - so is it you who doesn't believe in the golden rule?
And by the way, I have "many" un-named experts who agree with me...
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
By all means let the discussion continue. Unfortunately there’s not much substance I see to discuss. This article reads more like a PR release than a news story.
But please, continue.
What was found? Who found it? When was it found? Where was it found? How do they support Mormonism or Joe Smith? I’d actually be interested in this topic, but as it stands, this article reads like, “Some guys found some stuff which proves we’re right!”
Restornu, do you have a more useful article?
From wikipedia: “The Deseret News is owned by Deseret News Publishing Company, a subsidiary of Deseret Management Corporation, which is a for-profit business holdings company owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (widely known as the Mormon or LDS Church).”
Indeed. The real historical record reveals that Christian theology flourished not only in Alexandria (Cyril, Clement) but in Jerusalem (Matthew, James, Cyril), Antioch (Ignatius), Edessa (Ephrem), Asia Minor (Basil, Gregory Of Nyssa, John Chrysostom), Rome (Ambrose, Gregory), Carthage (Augustine, Tertullian), Marseilles (Irenaeus), Seville (Isidore) and many other places besides.
Thanks.
Some here are no better in their actions!
You make fun of us but at least most LDS try to be better people.
So which best describes the behavior of many here Telestial or Terrestrial?
>> Indeed. The real historical record reveals that Christian theology flourished not only in Alexandria (Cyril, Clement) but in Jerusalem (Matthew, James, Cyril), Antioch (Ignatius), Edessa (Ephrem), Asia Minor (Basil, Gregory Of Nyssa, John Chrysostom), Rome (Ambrose, Gregory), Carthage (Augustine, Tertullian), Marseilles (Irenaeus), Seville (Isidore) and many other places besides. <<
Not only that, but Egypt was the home of vast numbers of syncretist Hindus and Zoroastrians who sought to absorb Christianity into their pantheistic religions. Hence, much of what comes from Egypt is non-representative of Christianity. Further, the government of Egypt is very hostile to any research which might validate Jewish and Christian versions of histories, so whatever flows from Egypt tends to be the worst of the worst.
Exactly, this is a press release issued by a newspaper that is owned by the LDS. It says that “experts” have “proof” that Smith was right all along, but doesn’t offer even a hint as to who these experts are or what proof has been discovered.
Re: By all means let the discussion continue. Unfortunately there’s not much substance I see to discuss. This article reads more like a PR release than a news story.
But please, continue.
Please review my posts #7 & #25. I in no way endorse the veracity of the original posted article.
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