Bishop Mark Hanson of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (left) and United Methodist Bishop William Oden sing a hymn during April 29 morning worship at the 2008 United Methodist General Conference in Fort Worth, Texas.
Posted on 04/30/2008 3:03:34 PM PDT by SmithL
United Methodists declared Monday a "banner day" as they approved a full communion agreement with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
The new relationship between the two major Protestant denominations is not a merger but a recognition of each other's ministry and mission. Full communion recognizes that each church has "the one, holy, catholic and apostolic faith" expressed in the Scriptures and confessed in historic creeds and the core teachings of each denomination.
The two churches also recognize the authenticity of each other's baptism and eucharist and the full interchangeability of all ordained ministers.
"It's not merger," said Bishop Melvin Talbert, co-chairman of the United Methodist-ELCA dialogue team. "It means we are open to receiving and accepting and acknowledging each other's ministries."
Although not a merger, ELCA Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson hopes the full communion will foster a deeper relationship and ecumenical cooperation as the two churches focus more on how to do things together rather than separately.
The United Methodists' approval for communion comes after 30 years of theological dialogue. Since 2005, the two churches have encouraged members to pray for and support each other, to study Scripture together and to learn about each other's traditions.
Noting that fruit has finally come, Hanson told Methodists on Tuesday, "This is why we, as the ELCA, and you, as The United Methodist Church, vote on full communion - because we believe together we might more imaginatively, evangelically, prophetically and abundantly bear fruit for the sake of the Gospel and the life of the world," according to the United Methodist News Service.
Hanson, who also serves as president of the Lutheran World Federation, spoke during the Tuesday morning worship at the United Methodist General Conference, which takes place every four years, in Fort Worth.
In a rootless, restless world, Christians "have a powerful testimony to give," and good news to share, Hanson told UMC delegates.
"I am the vine, you are the branches. I have loved you the way my Father has loved me. You didn't choose me, remember: I chose you," the ELCA head said as he cited the good news of Jesus.
And although a more self-help, feel-good gospel may be more palatable in today's religious marketplace, Hanson stressed that the radical Gospel of Christ is all that is needed.
"Lives rooted in Christ the vine will bear fruit," he said.
The ELCA already has five full communion relationships with The Episcopal Church, the Moravian Church in America, Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), Reformed Church in America and United Church of Christ.
The United Methodist Church just entered dialogue with The Episcopal Church but the agreement with the ELCA is its first full communion relationship outside the Methodist tradition.
Bishop Frank Brookhart, co-chairman of the United Methodist-Episcopal dialogue, thus described the Methodists' approval on Monday as "a miracle."
"It's real easy for churches to separate. It's real hard to get back together," he explained. "This doesn't happen without the risen Christ among us."
The ELCA is expected to vote on full communion with the UMC at its assembly in August 2009.
The ELCA is the largest Lutheran denomination in the country with 4.8 million members. The United Methodist is the largest Protestant mainline denomination with nearly 8 million members in the United States. BACK TO TOP Print E-m
Bishop Mark Hanson of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (left) and United Methodist Bishop William Oden sing a hymn during April 29 morning worship at the 2008 United Methodist General Conference in Fort Worth, Texas.
ELCA picks another liberal partner.
Not with this Lutheran, or the millions like me.
the ELCA voted to allow homosexuals to be pastors, that was it for me.
Kind of ironic coming from ELCA.
The only part about that statement I believe is the radical part. ELCA loves radicals, communist radicals, homosexual radicals, abortionist radicals.
And what would a liberal church conference be without the requisite hate screed against Israel and support for Islamic terrorism?:
Two liberals joining together in communion.....I hope they pause and reflect on the sins their churches not only endorse but celebrate.
It is hard to leave a church, there are a lot of emotional ties and the friendships formed. I hope you can find a church and I would not be surprised some of your friends will eventually join you... I wish you well
That’s the beauty. Now each can count the other denomination in its numbers and pretend they are GROWING. The Methodists have been homosexual haven for years. Jeff Smith, the Frugal Gourmet, was a Methodist minister and predator of adolescent boys. A good friend of mine was assaulted by a Methodist minister. UMC and ELCA condone same sex relationships, divorce, and abortion. One Holy, Apostolic Church they are not.
One Holy Apostolic=One, Holy, CATHOLIC, and Apostolic
Come out from among them and be ye separate.
ping
“ELCA picks another liberal partner.”
UMC effectively merging with the ELCA...
just trying to stave off the inevitable.
Just like when Studebaker merged with Packard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studebaker#Merger_with_Packard
“A dove of peace shot out of the sky. Probably by a Pali bullet.”
Likely a bullet purchased with $$$ from some UMC or ELCA charity for
the oppressed freedom fighters of the world.
Fired from one of the M-16s Bill Clinton gave to The Palestinian Authority
on behalf of The American People.
I’ll venture a guess that the “communion” spoken of here between the UMC and the ELCA is not of the sort I might recognize as an Orthodox Christian.
With all due respect, this is really rather silly and more than a little pathetic.
Alleluia! Christ ascends to shouts of joy!
Particularly since on a practical level many UM’s are Zwinglian in Eucharistic theology and Baptist/revivalist in soteriology.
Seeing how both are bleeding members I guess something had to be done.
“Particularly since on a practical level many UM’s are Zwinglian in Eucharistic theology and Baptist/revivalist in soteriology.”
Exactly, but when complete unity in “orthodox” theology is unimportant, when, for example, it matters not one bit whether or not one believes in the Real Presence, when what is theologically acceptable is whatever the demonic zeitgeist is teaching, well this is what you get.
It is stupid. Much like the full communion with the ECUSA, this is little more than a publicity stunt.
You can’t have communion with a body that has radically different theology. That goes against what “communion” means!
ELCA’s agreement with ECUSA includes a provision to incorporate apostolic succession back into the Lutheran bishops. To that end, an Anglican bishop now participates in every ELCA episcopal consecration. It will be interesting to see if UMC and ECUSA work out a similar plan.
“It is stupid. Much like the full communion with the ECUSA, this is little more than a publicity stunt”
No, it is not stupid. Undoing schisms is not a publicity stunt.
I think all the traditional Christians on this board should be happy about this, as it will cause the remaining traditional minded Methodists to flee from the “shifting sands” to a firmer foundation (note the hymn reference).
In my experience traditional Methodist make great Catholics (good singers too) so no doubt you’ll all be happy with those that end up in your more traditionally minded Christian Churches.
Might even improve the singing if they brings some of those great Wesleyan Hymns with them....we Catholics have been stealing them for years!
“No, it is not stupid. Undoing schisms is not a publicity stunt.”
Do you believe that is what this action accomplishes? Maybe it would help if you gave us an Anglican definition of “communion” or “being in communion”. Finally, was there ever a time when the Methodists and any Lutheran body were considered the same church espousing the same theology?
This action is a major step in removing the institutional and doctrinal barriers that followers of Christ have erected between each other. Lutherans and Methodists have been welcome at the Lord’s Table in each other’s church for many years. Now that is taken a step further by allowing interchangeability of pastors. A UMC pastor may be hired by an ELCA parish to conduct Lutheran services.
Full Communion means no barriers- either implicit or explicit (an example of “implicit barrier” would be a traditionalist Catholic who goes out of his away to avoid dealing with a contemporary Vatican II parish).
Me too, I left for an AFLC church.
“Full Communion means no barriers- either implicit or explicit (an example of “implicit barrier” would be a traditionalist Catholic who goes out of his away to avoid dealing with a contemporary Vatican II parish).”
I take it then that agreement on theology is not a sine qua non of “communion”; right? If so, this is a sort of communion which is previously unknown, except let’s say over the past 10 years or so, among Christian Churches and ecclesial groups so far as I know. How can a church or group whose theology includes a belief in the Real Presence be in communion with a church or group which does not accept the Eucharistic theology of The Church or be in communion with a church or group which is itself in communion with such a group?
You mentioned earlier something along the lines of Lutherans and UMs being welcome at “the Lord’s Table” for many years. Am I correct in assuming you mean intercommunion? If so, and if Lutherans and Ums don’t believe the exact same things in a dogmatic sense, isn’t one or the other of necessity eating and drinking to his or her own condemnation?
To me that is an absolute profaning of the Holy.
....I’ll venture a guess that the “communion” spoken of here between the UMC and the ELCA is not of the sort I might recognize as an Orthodox Christian....
It most certainly is not, Kolo! The Antiochian Archdiocese has a statement on its website that promiscuous intercommunion by the ELCA with different denomination with different beliefs about the nature of the Eucharist (among many other things) is hindering any dialogue between the Orthodox and the Lutherans.
The gray, amorphous liberal protestant entity, like a giant ameba, keeps “growing” by continual intercommunions and mergers. But it becomes more and more dilute as it does so, leaving most people within it more and more spiritually numb, and wondering where the love for Christ and His Church that they had when they were younger all went.
Then those who (with God’s help) are able to awaken from their torpor get up and leave, as individuals, families, or congregations (and even, in the case of Episcopalians, as whole dioceses). Hopefully, at least many of them head home.
...If so, and if Lutherans and UMs [or UCCs, Presbyterians, etc.] don’t believe the exact same things in a dogmatic sense, isn’t one or the other of necessity eating and drinking to his or her own condemnation?...
Not necessarily. Some (notably the conservatives in the Missouri Synod) hold that all the promiscuous intercommunions and fudging on the nature of the Eucharist by the ELCA mean that no ELCA congregation has had a real Communion of Christ’s Body and Blood for a long time (ie., since the first “agreement” with the Reformed). What passes as a Eucharist in the ELCA is thus empty play-acting.
I do not know if that is true. God knows.
It seems to me that the vast majority of disputes among Christians are issues pertaining to discipline (celibate vs married clergy, episcopal vs synodal government, etc)and worship (traditional hymns vs modern praise songs, speaking in tongues, vestments, liturgy, etc). There are very few purely doctrinal disputes. Granted, different churches cite scripture and tradition to justify the choices they make regarding discipline and worship (and these are no small matters).
To that end, ELCA, ECUSA and UMC really don’t have any doctrinal differences. The only possibility I can think of is the UMC position on Real Presence.
“The only possibility I can think of is the UMC position on Real Presence.”
Wouldn’t you agree that that is a fundamental, dogmatic difference? If a priest were to knowingly give the Eucharist to a communicant who denied the Real Presence, quite aside from that communicant eating and drinking to his own condemnation, wouldn’t the priest himself be at least as condemned and certainly worthy of defrocking at a minimum by fostering profanation of the Holy Mystery?
Differences in discipline, married clergy versus celibate, vestment styles, hymns, even matters of theologoumenna, of course should be no barrier to communion between churches unless they themselves demonstrate a disagreement about dogma. But bobjam, if there are manifest or implicit divergences concerning dogma as a matter of The Church’s understanding of “communion”, there can be no communion. To pretend communion exists when in fact it does not is a prescription for profanation and anathema. I think what these ELCA and UM people have done places souls at great risk in the interests of 21st century “koumbyaism”.
Someone who belongs to Christ and seeks to do His will (as opposed to persons who go to church for PR purposes) cannot eat and drink to his own condemnation. Such a person may be ignorant of the proper theological understanding of the Eucharist but still parttake without putting himself in peril because he belongs to the Risen Lord. To me, it’s not a question of what the partaker thinks regarding the doctrine of the elements, it’s a matter of where the partaker’s heart lies regarding Christ.
Again, I do not know exactly what UMC teaches regarding the elements. Methodism originated inside the Anglican Church and much of what they do is similar to Anglicanism. That being said, I suspect that Real Presence is something they have accepted.
Think about it- the concept of Real Presence has helped Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans come a long way towards a common understanding of Eucharistic theology- a major issue of the Reformation is actually being solved!
P, Orthodoxy doesn’t call what happens at the epiklesis anything; we don;t define or explain how the Holy Spirit transforms the bread and wine on the altar into the very Body and Blood of Christ. He call it a Mystery. Its not something for us to know or concern ourselves with. It simply is.
You say you agree with this:
“To me, it’s not a question of what the partaker thinks regarding the doctrine of the elements, it’s a matter of where the partaker’s heart lies regarding Christ.”
I am not surprised given the state of Anglican theology these days. It is exactly such loose theology which leads to intercommunion with people who deny the Real Presence. Its all OK because they reallllllyyyyyyyy loooooooooooooooooooove Jesus. That is not and never has been the theology of The Church which Anglicanism claims to be a part of. Its simply 20-21st century kumbayaism.
“The mystery of the Eucharist is called ‘participation’ for by it we participate in Christ’s divinity. It is also called ‘Communion’ which it indeed is, for through it we are brought into fellowship with Christ ... we are also, through it, in fellowship and unity with one another ... We should, therefore, be on our guard not to accept participation from heretics or give it to them ... lest we become sharers in their false faith. But if there is true union with Christ and with one another, then we indeed willingly unite with those with whom we participate.” +John of Damascus
“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [Baptism], and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.” +Justin Martyr
I never said the Catholic Church did not have its problems. The Catechism has been consistent, though, in what it teaches. Individuals might not abide by it as they should, but the doctrine remains. People sometimes leave the Church (and I don’t mean you) because they find Church teaching on divorce and remarriage, abortion, and other lifestyle choices to be hard, inconvenient, and contrary to their human will.
“I too an not happy with the kumbayaism of parts of the Anglican church, and one of my major reasons for researching these issues, and looking into the beliefs of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, is to better enable myself to combat this trend.”
Read the Fathers and then compare those writings with those of Bishop J.C. Ryle and then with what is being produced by revisionist “1st world” Episcopalians and Anglicans these days. Study carefully the liturgies and devotions and services of the Church in the East and then make a comparison with the ancient liturgies of the British Isles (for example the Sarum Liturgy) and thereafter with what passes for liturgics today in, again, most of “1st world” Anglicanism. All of this is available in any good library or on line. You’ll find it a worthwhile exercise, I guarantee.
We know the elements are not mere symbols- for a symbol is a false representation that stands in place of the real thing. The elements at the Eucharist are, in deed, the real thing.
What we put into our mouths tastes like bread and wine. It looks like bread and wine. There’s a measurable alcohol content. If one were to drink the entire chalice (Heaven forbid!) he could get a very real DUI on the drive home.
Jesus is fully God and fully man. The Eucharistic elements are fully flesh and blood and fully bread and wine. This ultimately is a mystery that we humans cannot completely wrap our minds around.
“This ultimately is a mystery that we humans cannot completely wrap our minds around.”
Which is precisely why Orthodoxy calls the sacraments Mysteries!
Yes, “mystery” is a very good word for it today. Attempts to over-analyze and dogmatize things which we cannot fully understand in this life only lead to division and bitterness.
It is better to be divided than wrong.
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