Posted on 05/01/2008 7:53:56 AM PDT by ZGuy
A group of religious Zionist rabbis have called for a boycott of this year's International Bible Quiz after discovering that one of the four finalists from Israel is a Messianic Jew who believes Jesus is the true Messiah.
"Messianics are missionaries who proselytize in very sophisticated ways," said Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, one of the rabbis calling to boycott the quiz.
"It is forbidden to give them legitimacy by allowing them to take part in the quiz."
Other rabbis that have called to boycott the quiz include Shmuel Eliyahu, chief rabbi of Safed, Ya'acov Yosef, son of Shas mentor Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and Rabbi Tzvi Tau, head of Har Hamor Yeshiva.
The call to boycott the quiz came after Yad L'Achim, a haredi anti-missionary organization, discovered that one of the finalists, Bat-El Levi, an 11th grader from a high school in Pisgat Ze'ev, was a Messianic Jew.
Levi won this year's national bible quiz for state schools and will be one of four finalists from Israel competing for the International Bible Quiz Championship on Independence Day.
The Education Ministry said in response to a query from The Jerusalem Post that the "Global Bible Quiz for Jewish Youth" was open only to Jewish pupils. Regarding Messianic Jews, the pupil in question was Jewish, and therefore, according to the ministry's legal department, was not disqualified from participating.
Calev Myers, founder and chief counsel of the Jerusalem Institute of Justice, an advocacy group that represents members of the Messianic community, said that the rabbis' call to boycott the quiz was a show of weakness.
"If the participation of a Messianic Jewish lady is enough to shake up those rabbis' world, it shows the weakness of that world," said Myers.
"Why should they have a problem with a young woman who knows how to quote from the Bible?
"It is about time that they stop having a monopoly over determining who is a Jew. The beauty of the Jewish world is the diversity. If you can still be considered a Jew even if you believe that the Lubavitch Rebbe [Menachem Mendel Schneerson] is the messiah, the same thing should hold true if you believe Jesus is."
Levi and her parents Ruti and Yitzhak declined to comment on the rabbis' call.
forbidden? By whom?....
That makes some sense.
The Pharisees are alive and well in Israel.
You can still be a Jew and deny that Abraham and Moses were real people.
Many great Rabbis have made this halachic ruling. Most significantly in recent times, Rav Moshe Feinstein, issued the ruling that prohibited virtually all forms of participation in events that included groups or individuals that act contrary to the Torah. As your quote says, such joint participation lends legitimacy to anti-Torah views and is forbidden. It has nothing to do with hatred for the individuals, just the defense of the sanctity and supremacy of the Torah in all matters.
Surely, a messianic Jew falls in the anti-Torah category.
You can, apparently, be a Jew and deny that God exists. However, one wouldn’t expect people like that to be very interested in Bible memorization.
:::shrug::: Let them boycott.
Many years ago, I participated in this Bible Quiz through the Temple my parents belonged to. It was just like the Spelling Bee--they even gave out booklets with the questions and answers ahead of time, all you had to do was memorize. This Quiz relies a lot more on rote memorization than on understanding and interpretation.
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There is a common misconception in your comments, brought about by the false premise in the quotation. The objection by the Rabbis has nothing to do with whether the participant is a Jew. If she is born of a Jewish mother or is a legitimate convert (which would seem impossible given her views), then she is a Jew. The objection stems from her views which run contrary to the Torah. As my previous post indicates, that is the halachic basis for the objection, rather than making it sound like someone is writing another Jew out of Judaism. BTW, those who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe is the messiah, are similarly mistaken, but still Jewish.
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The problem isn't with accepting Jesus as the Messiah. That claim has been made for a number of people.
Well, they know their translations of the Bible, anyway. And no, reading the TaNa"KH (without a prior belief in chr*stianity and the "new testament") does not in any way push one in the direction of chr*stianity!
This is because less emphasis is placed on learning TaNaKH in the yeshivas than on Talmud and halachah.
The Gedolim know what they're doing. After all, Halakhah is what it's all about! And there are still very traditional Orthodox Jews who can recite scripture from memory. Not to mention it's Orthodox Jews who produce the scribes who continue to write the Biblical text as it's always been written (in accordance with laws not found in the Bible).
I don't understand the boycott, though. Just disqualify this person and go on with it. What they're doing is like drawing a picture by holding the pencil still and moving the paper.
Why is that?
The matter of disqualification shouldn’t hinge on whether or not the person is Jewish. If it were me I’d disqualify because of the absurd Messianic and Trinitarian interpretations of Hebrew Scripture. But its their Bible quiz and they have every right to disqualify whomever and for whatever reason they choose.
Its a good thing too. Because if the original Pharisees didn't previously exist no one would have preserved 2/3rd's of your Scripture for ya.
To any concerned Jews... as evangelical Christians, please understand we’re the BEST friends the Jews have ever had... as we understand G-d ment what He said in Genesis 12:3! And we obey it! And the best part is... we get all our faith and all of yours too!!!
G-d bless the Jews, pray for the peace of Jerusalem!
I think that "messiah" in this sense is the way David, Solomon and other Kings of Isreal were "annointed" and referred to as "Son of Man" and "Son of God" without any attribution to their divinity.
To my mind a "Messianic Jew" is a Christian and thus should give up any pretense to being considered Jewish.
That being said, it's difficult to understand what these rabbis are fearful of, other than being bested by a Christian in Tanach competition - which is what I would expect such a contest in Israel to be limited to. My advice would be for them to so stipulate their objections, then just bring forth their best Tanach experts and have at it.
Some of them yes. But stick around here on FR for awhile. You'll find plenty of evangelicals, preterists and orthodox Catholics that are anti-zionists supercessionists.
Of whom Jesus himself was one by virtue of his having been "ordained" a rabbi, later Gospel distortion to this effect notwithstanding.
Wow! The devil has been working overtime.
It is their loss to not love the Jews as God's Chosen. They must be missing large sections of their Bibles.
Yea but they’re WRONG! And totaly ignorant... not understanding, in their frustration of (most) Jewish rejection of Messiah, that it in NO WAY changes the promise of Genesis 12:3!
The Jews are clearly cherished and loved by Almighty G-d. Nothing else explains the paradox of the most persecuted people in history thriving in spite of hate, pogroms and the Holocaust. Many historians wonder how Jews have kept their identity for 3,000+ years. It just doesn’t make sense. They should have vanished millennia ago, along with the Phoenicians, the Hittites, the Philistines or any other ‘ites that shared the space that archeologists are now digging up!
“supercessionists”
Just for clarification, what does that word mean in relation to Israel?
Since half the World's Jewish population lives in the nation of Israel today, Jews = Nation of Israel. A "supercessionist" in this context would be those non-Jews whom claim promises to Abraham about the land for themselves. Usually the trinitarians that came along 2,000 years ago and think they're better at interpreting Hebrew scripture than those with 3500 year of tradition.
Odd, that a messianic Jew would be considered anti-Torah, since the whole of the Torah is to point to the coming of a messiah. I guess if the prophecy is fulfilled, all the non-messianic Jewish rabbis would be out of a job.........
#20
Jeeze! ;>)
One can be a Jew and a Christian, as many are. Just because you become a Christian, you don't stop being Jewish. The Apostle Paul considered himself as both a Jew and a Christian. He even performed a bris on Timothy!.......
OK, I see. But since the modern state of Isael has only been in existence since 1948, its probably not fair to blame “trinitarians”. I think Christians who lived in earlier times interpreted scripture with the current state of affairs in mind.
I defference to good Christians everywhere (who the US could not have been founded without), sorry to disagree. Nor do I agree with Paul, at all.
One of the biggest problems the early 1st century Christians faced was whether or not Gentiles were to be converted to Judaism first, upon becoming a Christian. This was finally laid to rest by Paul, in a "come as you are called" message. A Greek or a Roman need not be circumcised to become a Christian. A Jew would remain a Jew upon becoming a Christian. The inference was that each person was then able to preach to his own in the manner to which they are accustomed. Circumcision meant nothing and non circumcision meant nothing. It was what's in your heart that counts. Each person's relationship with God was now personalized through Jesus Christ............
LOL! The hubris of some people never ceases to amaze me.
The answer to the oft asked question "is Judaism a religion or a nationality?" has always been, both. The promise of land has, throughout the ages, been part of both Christian and Jewish writings. Jews have always considered themselves "Israel" whether in the land or out of it. Again, half of the world's Jewish population today live in the land of Israel. Therefore, should anyone ask, the answer to the question "is Israel a land or a people?" is, both.
If “messianic Jew” means a Jew who believes that Jesus was the messiah and/or that Jesus was/is the son of G-d, such beliefs are profoundly contrary to Torah beliefs and practices. The new testament cancelled virtually all scriptual Torah commandments and cancelled the oral Law entirely, rendering any remaining commandments of the Torah virtually unrecognizable as Jewish practices.
Hope that answers your question.
Why? Many, if not most, Messianic Jews are more Torah-observant than your average Reform or Conservative Jew.
Values over blood. There is nothing "chosen" in this respect about those outside that system.
With respect to Paul, I personally do not agree that one can be a Jew and a non-Jew at the same time.
Respectfully disagree. The whole point of the Torah is not the coming of a messiah. The whole point of the Torah is that we believe G-d gave it to the Jewish people at Sinai as a guidebook to the service of G-d, to performing his commandments, sanctifying His name and elevating the world.
True, that the coming of Moshiach is a much anticipated event but it is because he will reveal the truth of G-d and His mastery over the world and bring about a state of peace in which all the world serves G-d. Paradoxically, though it is now, before Moshiach arrives, that the greatest service of G-d is accomplished against the howling winds of antipathy, such as secularism, atheism and anti-Semitism.
It is only sad if you are a Christian. Not sad for me at all.
I, for one, deeply appreciate our evangelical friends. On FR, I also appreciate that we can conduct a civil conversation about our differences.
And I would like to return blessings to you.
Oh? So if a person is born to a Jewish mother, identifies as Jewish, keeps the Torah and traditions with as much or greater zealousness as your typical Reform or Conservative Jew (heck, there are Messianics who live as Orthodox), but happens to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, he shouldn't be considered Jewish when Reform, Reconstructionist, agnostic, and atheists are?
Well met!
I’ll stand by #40, thanks.
Everyone has a right to stand by their inconsistencies. Shalom.
That it is. However, a true, basic Christian, does "reside" within that system. The only real difference is that A Jew will say. "The Messiah has not come. We are waiting for him!" Whereas a Christian will say, "Yes he has! We're just waiting for him to come again!" The 10 commandments are still in effect for Jews and Christians alike. Christ admonishes us to "Observe the Law." ....
First, let me observe: you said it, not me.
Second, even if you had your tongue firmly planted in cheek, the statement itself presents a kind of quandry: Lets say the mj is wearing tzitzis, dons tefillin every day, takes lulav and esrog and sits in a kosher succah on Sukkos, keeps Passover halachically, etc. etc. but just one "small" thing: he believes in Jesus, believes he is G-d, the son of G-d and/or the true Messiah and has a crucifix prominently on display at home, etc.
On the other hand you have a reform Jew who doesn't keep a stitch of halachic judaism, but wouldn't dream of accepting Jesus in any way. Who is truly the "better Jew"? Far be it from me to venture more than an educated guess. Probably the reform Jew is better off. The prohibitions for worshipping other G-ds or for believing something beyond the One G-d in the absolute sense are very severe and carry certain sanctions like excommunication as well. Excommunication doesn't mean you're not a Jew, but absolutely shunned and banned from the community of Judaism until you mend your ways. The non-practicing reform Jew is not up to snuff, but he simply has to start doing those things as best he can and bingo! he's one fine and dandy Jew.
Also, it is very likely the reform Jew simply was never raised and educated to be a practicing Jew. Hence his non observance is much more lightly treated as a matter of innocent ignorance. The mj could be in much worse shape halachically, because, if he knows enough to be doing all the practices, he certainly knows enough not to be mixing Jesus into it.
And if their translation of the OT is based on the Septaugint it is more accurate than a translation based on the mesoratic text as the dead sea scrolls have made abundantly clear.
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