Anglicans must choose between Protestantism and tradition, says Vatican

Catholic Herald ^ | 5/6/2008 | Anna Arco

[markomalley]

The Vatican has said that the time has come for the Anglican Church to choose between Protestantism and the ancient churches of Rome and Orthodoxy.

Speaking on the day that the Archbishop of Canterbury met Benedict XVI in Rome, Cardinal Walter Kasper, the president of the Pontifical Council of Christian Unity, said it was time for Anglicanism to "clarify its identity".

He told the Catholic Herald: "Ultimately, it is a question of the identity of the Anglican Church. Where does it belong?

"Does it belong more to the churches of the first millennium -Catholic and Orthodox - or does it belong more to the Protestant churches of the 16th century? At the moment it is somewhere in between, but it must clarify its identity now and that will not be possible without certain difficult decisions."

He said he hoped that the Lambeth conference, an event which brings the worldwide Anglican Communion together every 10 years, would be the deciding moment for Anglicanism.

Cardinal Kasper, who has been asked to speak at the Lambeth Conference by the Archbishop of Canterbury, said: "We hope that certain fundamental questions will be clarified at the conference so that dialogue will be possible.

"We shall work and pray that it is possible, but I think that it is not sustainable to keep pushing decision-making back because it only extends the crisis."

His comments will be interpreted as an attempt by Rome to put pressure on the Church of England not to proceed with the ordination women bishops or to sanction gay partnerships, both serious obstacles to unity.

They have come at an extremely sensitive time for the Anglican Communion, as cracks between different factions in the church are beginning to show ahead of the conference in July.

Dr Rowan Williams faces rebellion from conservative and liberal Anglicans over homosexuality and women bishops.

The Rt Rev Gene Robinson, the Anglican bishop of New Hampshire, whose attempts to enter into a civil union with his gay partner have angered conservative Anglicans, plans to attend the public events of the conference despite the fact that he has not been invited by Dr Williams.

On the other side of the spectrum, rebel conservative bishops, headed by Archbishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria, dismayed by the Archbishop of Canterbury's refusal to condemn homosexuality outright, plan a rival conference in the Holy Land in June.

Ecumenical dialogue between Rome and the Anglican Communion ground to a halt in 2006. Cardinal Kasper said at the time that a decision by the Church of England to consecrate women bishops would lead to "a serious and long lasting chill".

But last month the Church of England's Legislative Drafting Group published a report preparing the ground for women bishops, who are already ordained in several Anglican provinces.

[markomalley]

FOR THE RECORD, neither the article nor the Vatican said that the Anglicans had to choose between Protestantism and Catholicism...

Rather, it said...

"Does it belong more to the churches of the first millennium -Catholic and Orthodox - or does it belong more to the Protestant churches of the 16th century?"

[markomalley]

Ping to your lists!

[mnehrling]

I'm glad the article actually didn't say that because I love the balance the Anglican church has with tradition and Protestant theology.

[Kolokotronis]

You may find this interesting. For what its worth, I think the Cardinal is absolutely right. Its fish or cut bait time and I think we all know what the answer will be.

[markomalley]

I'm glad the article actually didn't say that because I love the balance the Anglican church has with tradition and Protestant theology.

So you like the ritual offered by the Anglicans while endorsing abominations like allowing the ordination of open homosexuals?

I am not sure what you mean if not that type of comment. Could you possibly clarify?

Tnx

[mnehrling]

I said Protestant theology, not liberal politics.

[VanDeKoik]

So the Anglicans want back in?

[GAB-1955]

“So you like the ritual offered by the Anglicans while endorsing abominations like allowing the ordination of open homosexuals?”

If the Anglican church practiced its theology, it wouldn’t have this problem. There are Anglican churches that reject this path, especially in Africa.

[ModelBreaker]

"Does it belong more to the churches of the first millennium -Catholic and Orthodox - or does it belong more to the Protestant churches of the 16th century?

That's just ridiculous. The churches of the first century did not have multi-multi-multi billions in assets and income, a government all to itself, a church every couple of miles in most cities all over the world, and a bureaucracy that rivals the US Government. Nor is the most powerful government in the world hunting down Catholics and killing them. Nor were the Churches negotiating with Rome to be good little Churches in exchange for official recognition.

With all due respect, the Churches of the first century far more closely resembled today's house churches in China than they do the Catholic Church.

[aposiopetic]

Nor is the most powerful government in the world hunting down Catholics and killing them.

Whatever the power of the respective governments, Catholics have recently been martyred, in Iraq and Indonesia and Turkey and doubtless also in China. I am not replying in order to start an argument but rather to point out that Catholics in some parts of the world still die for their faith.

[Petronski]

I really wish he’d said “ought” rather than “must.”

[proxy_user]

The Church of England does not make any sense without England, with Queen Anne as the head of the churh, and the bishops sitting in the House of Lords voting for the government.

[sionnsar]

On the other side of the spectrum, rebel conservative bishops, headed by Archbishop Peter Akinola of Nigeria,

No bias here... as a member of the "rebellion" that preceded these late-comer slackers by more than a quarter-century, I cry "foul." Though not seriously; may God bless their ministries -- there are a lot of good Christian folk among and in the care of these "rebel conservative bishops."

Thanks to markomalley for the ping.

Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.

FReepmail Huber or sionnsar if you want on or off this moderately high-volume ping list (sometimes 3-9 pings/day).
This list is pinged by Huber and sionnsar.

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Humor: The Anglican Blue

Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

[markomalley]

The churches of the first century did not have multi-multi-multi billions in assets and income, a government all to itself, a church every couple of miles in most cities all over the world, and a bureaucracy that rivals the US Government.

True. However they did have the essential hierarchal structure that exists to this day. Ref: the writings of St. Paul to the Church in Thessaloniki, amplified by the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch and others from that era.

Nor is the most powerful government in the world hunting down Catholics and killing them.

Not any more...but you should read up on your British history a little bit before making that statement. Ref: St. Thomas More, Cuthbert Mayne, and others. (BTW, you do realize that it was Catholicism was essentially illegal from Elizabethan times until 1829, don't you?)

Nor were the Churches negotiating with Rome to be good little Churches in exchange for official recognition.

With the exception of heretics, such as Marcion and other Gnostics, pretty well all the bishops were in communion with Rome at that time, so the point is a non-sequitur.

With all due respect, the Churches of the first century far more closely resembled today's house churches in China than they do the Catholic Church.

One of my best friends is a Chinese priest. He came of age during the Cultural Revolution. His family had a house church. In fact, when he goes to visit his family, he says a Mass each day at that altar that was erected for their house church.

So that is a very adroit comparison. Just as the house churches were persecuted because they would not forswear their loyalty to the See of Peter, the underground Catholics in England were persecuted. And just as Pope Benedict is attempting a reconciliation with the Patriotic Association (the official "church" in China), the Vatican is attempting some variety of reconciliation with the official "church" in England. Yes, a very adroit comparison. Thanks for that observation!

[Tailback]

As soon as the Roman Catholic church starts excommunicating pro-abortion “Catholics” like Kennedy, Kerry, and Giuliani, I’ll start listening to Roman Catholic criticism of the Anglicans.

[A.A. Cunningham]

The churches of the first century

You do understand that a millenium is 1,000 years or 10 centuries, don't you?

[RFEngineer]

“I really wish he’d said “ought” rather than “must.””

Catholics and Protestants have been telling each other what do for quite some time, and probably will for quite some time in the future.

Really though, the Pope does have a dog in this fight as too many of his flock (at least in the US) actually are closer to Protestants in how they actually live. So if they are going to act like Protestants, he should have some say.

[RFEngineer]

“So the Anglicans want back in?”

We’re practically pre-approved to become Catholic, so there really is no hurry for those who are interested in actually doing so.

He’s just playing with the fine print, but the offer still stands.

[redgolum]

The trouble is that most Catholic dioceses resemble some of the luke warm ECUSA ones. I don't know the case in England, but the US has a heap of problems.

Still, the Cardinal has a point. Eventually you have to fish or cut bait. The Anglican Communion has split apart, and the pieces have to decide which way to go.

[PAR35]

So you like the ritual offered by the Anglicans while endorsing abominations like allowing the ordination of open homosexuals?

Ever heard of Bishop Pilla and his rainbow friends in Cleveland? Are you sure that you don't want to withdraw your statement? Or do I need to name one or two more Catholic Bishops? Or should we just start discussing the large numbers of ordained homosexual priests in some of the Catholic Dioceses?

[LiteKeeper]

The choice for the Episcopal and Anglican Churches is between paganism and Christianity. They haven’t reached the level of choosing between Protestantism and Catholicism.

[markomalley]

As soon as the Roman Catholic church starts excommunicating pro-abortion “Catholics” like Kennedy, Kerry, and Giuliani, I’ll start listening to Roman Catholic criticism of the Anglicans.

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

So unless they are directly involved in the act, it isn't that simple. It gets into a "judgement call."

---

Can. 1369 A person who in a public show or speech, in published writing, or in other uses of the instruments of social communication utters blasphemy, gravely injures good morals, expresses insults, or excites hatred or contempt against religion or the Church is to be punished with a just penalty.

Can. 1399 In addition to the cases established here or in other laws, the external violation of a divine or canonical law can be punished by a just penalty only when the special gravity of the violation demands punishment and there is an urgent need to prevent or repair scandals.

There are the canons that would need to be applied. Unfortunately, the process to apply those canons would need to be done through litigation, applying a ferendae sententiae punishment, rather than latae sententiae (automatic). And you KNOW that would be ugly.

For me, I would be happy if the individual's bishop would grow a set of cahones large enough to publicly direct the individual in question to not receive communion and to direct his pastors to not distribute communion to the individual in question.

But barring that, I hear your words.

[The_Reader_David]

"Does it belong more to the churches of the first millennium -Catholic and Orthodox - or does it belong more to the Protestant churches of the 16th century?"

From the sixteenth century until the 1960's, or maybe 70's that was a lively question. From Elizabeth I prefering to hear Latin mass even after cementing Anglicanism as the state church of England, to Thomas Ken's dying profession of faith, to the Oxford Movement, Anglicanism always had a pole that tried to be a sort of Western Orthodox, as well as a very protestant pole.

Alas, around the 1960's the trend that began with the Latitudinarians reached its logical conclusion and 'Anglican inclusiveness' started including apostates and pagans. Heresy ceased to be a 'relevant category' (in the words of the Episcopalian House of Bishops at the time of their failure to judge Bishop Pike as a heretic for denying the Trinity). (And with it truth evidently ceased to be a 'relevant category' as another ex-Anglican, the senior priest of the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese is fond of noting).

Now, it's a dead question. The vast majority of Anglicans who upheld the Catholic pole of Anglicanism have swum the Bosphorus or the Tiber, or decamped for one of the Continuing Anglican Churches. All that's left is the fight between the still-Christian, but most assuredly protestant 'Southern Global South' and the paganized Anglicans of the US and white Commonwealth.

[Tailback]

I have to apologize, sometimes (OK way too often) I let my emotions get the best of me. I think you and I can both agree that we love Christianity and are annoyed at being let down at times by our Church and its leadership.

‘Nuff said

[markomalley]

Ever heard of Bishop Pilla and his rainbow friends in Cleveland? Are you sure that you don't want to withdraw your statement? Or do I need to name one or two more Catholic Bishops? Or should we just start discussing the large numbers of ordained homosexual priests in some of the Catholic Dioceses?

Knock yourself out.

You will hear me decrying homosexual priests just as loudly as you do. If not louder! In fact, I would guess that any of the Catholic FReepers would be right there! (And it makes sense, as it directly impacts US)

In fact, you could add McCarrick, formerly (thank God formerly) of DC...Wakefield...and others.

If you read any of the Catholic threads posted here by Catholic posters, you won't think that ANY of us have any illusions as to how corrupt the US Church is. Thanks be to God there are a few good ones: Burke, Chaput, and a few others.

The big difference between the two institutions is that in the cases I've cited, official, on the record endorsement was provided by a national episcopal conference (of TEC in the US). Thanks be to God, that kind of thing has never even been attempted by the USCCB...and if they ever dared do it, Rome would b**ch-slap them so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Especially with the current Pontiff.

Corruption is bad, no matter where (a jail-bait hunting preacher is just as bad as a jail-bait hunting priest is just as bad as a jail-bait hunting rabbi, etc.). But there is a huge difference between widespread corruption among individuals in an institution and official sanction given.

So if you want to bad-mouth the officials and many of the parishes in the US Catholic Church, go for it. But keep in mind it's been said before. By Catholics.

[lastchance]

I think it very telling that the Cardinal mentions the Orthodox church as a contrast to the Protestant one in this context. Obviously then he is not telling Anglicans they must choose whether to embrace Catholic doctrine. Instead I believe, in light of Pope Benedict’s remarks regarding “prophetic actions”, he is saying that the Anglican Communion must decide if it is going to be true to its own teachings and traditions or sway which everway the cultural winds blow.

Is the Anglican Communion going to be anchored by Scripture and their articles of faith or is doctrine going to up for a vote every few years?

[Alia]

Seems like.

[avenir]

That's just ridiculous. The churches of the first century did not have multi-multi-multi billions in assets and income, a government all to itself, a church every couple of miles in most cities all over the world, and a bureaucracy that rivals the US Government. Nor is the most powerful government in the world hunting down Catholics and killing them. Nor were the Churches negotiating with Rome to be good little Churches in exchange for official recognition. / With all due respect, the Churches of the first century far more closely resembled today's house churches in China than they do the Catholic Church.

You speak truth, ModelBreaker. Pentecost killed religion--now it is simply "wherever two or more are gathered in my Name".

[Cookie123]

At some point in time the British Parliament will rescind The Act of Settlement and the C. of E. will cease to be a state church. When that happens,the C. of E. will for all intents and purposes cease to exist. Without the backing of the British govt and the prestige that the attachment to the monarchy gives it, the C. of E. will be revealed for what it actually in fact is - a state-run, hyper-Protestant, and numerically very weak, denomination that long ago ceased to have any real impact on British life. At this point, the so-called Anglican Communion will also cease to exist, and the various Anglican Churches around the world will simply have to make it on their own. Many are more-than-prepared to do so right now, and most of them are far more successful, both in numbers of members and in effective mission, than either the C. of E. or the American Episcopalians are.

[GAB-1955]

As someone who had been an Episcopalian and is now a Lutheran, I must disagree. I would suggest to any alienated Anglican that Catholicism is not the only alternative; the conservative Lutheran congregations would welcome you.

[Campion]

He said "churches of the first millenium", not first century.

The churches of the first century did not have multi-multi-multi billions in assets and income, a government all to itself, a church every couple of miles in most cities all over the world, and a bureaucracy that rivals the US Government.

And you couldn't drive a car or post on the Internet 10 minutes after you were born, either. :-)

Nor is the most powerful government in the world hunting down Catholics and killing them.

Rome hunted down plenty of Catholics and killed them before AD 313. And plenty of Catholics are being killed today, in various parts of the world, for their faith. There were more martyrs (both Catholic and every other Christian persuasion) in the last century than in the 19 preceding ones.

[Campion]

Pentecost killed religion--now it is simply "wherever two or more are gathered in my Name".

Someone forgot to tell the first Christians. Like, for instance, the bishop of Antioch, who was installed by the Apostles, and wrote, on his way to martyrdom in Rome, that to offer the Eucharist "behind the bishop's back" was no different than devil worship.

Someone even forgot to tell James, who was present at Pentecost, and later wrote: Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. (James 1:27)

(The verse you cite was addressed to the Apostles, not to everyone, and is not some sort of blanket permission to run off and start your own church.)

[NYer]

Ping!

[trad_anglican]

The vast majority of Anglicans who upheld the Catholic pole of Anglicanism have swum the Bosphorus or the Tiber, or decamped for one of the Continuing Anglican Churches. All that's left is the fight between the still-Christian, but most assuredly protestant 'Southern Global South' and the paganized Anglicans of the US and white Commonwealth.

You are spot on. Consequently, the decision has already been made. The struggle now is between protestantism and some kind of new agey mush.

[annalex]

I love the balance the Anglican church has with tradition and Protestant theology

The article did not say that the choice is between Protestantism and Catohlicism, but it did say that the choice is between Protestaqntism on one hand and either Catholicism or Orthodoxy on the other. The "balance" you speak of is illusory.

[LiteKeeper]

My point was that TEC must decide if it is going to be pagan or Christian. Denial of the basics of the faith removes them from the greater Christian community, and plops them down in paganism.

[Aquinasfan]

I can imagine “high church” Anglicans coming into the fold individually, or even by individual church. But it would take nothing short of a miracle to bring the entire church in. Henry VIII’s decision has had inevitable consequences, as his church has strayed further and further from Rome, orthodoxy, and Orthodoxy.

[Aquinasfan]

With all due respect, the Churches of the first century far more closely resembled today's house churches in China than they do the Catholic Church.

Do you really judge the authenticity of a Christian church by its similarity to the ancient church?

That's an important question, because the ancient Church had bishops, a supreme bishop, priests, the Eucharist, Penance, etc. In fact, the teachings and rites of the ancient Christian Church are very much like Catholic teachings and rites today.

I'll grant that the Catholic Church today is much larger than it was 2000 years ago. But I don't recall Jesus forbiding the Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth," to grow.

[RobbyS]

You ned to pay more attention to Anglican criticisms of the Anglican Church.
The EPUSA leadership has virtually abandoned all three legs of Anglican theology. We have like-minded bishops in the RC but they are generally quiet. and definitely in the minority.

[RobbyS]

The Anglican problem is that they have no center, nothing equivalent to the papacy, nor even to a Church Council. Maybe the Jerusalem conference will be a rallying place for traditional Anglicans.

[Miss Marple]

3000 people work in the Vatican. 23000 employees work in the Pentagon alone.

It’s quite alright to dispute the Church, although I probably wouldn’t agree.

It is not alright to make up your own facts.