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SELF-GOVERNMENT - MYSTERIES... ADAM, OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD
Journal of Discourses ^ | APRIL 9, 1852 | Mormon Prophet Brigham Young

Posted on 05/08/2008 7:35:38 PM PDT by P-Marlowe

SELF-GOVERNMENT - MYSTERIES - RECREATION AND AMUSEMENTS, NOT IN THEMSELVES SINFUL - TITHING - ADAM, OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD

 

A SERMON DELIVERED BY PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG, IN THE TABERNACLE,GREAT SALT LAKE CITY, APRIL 9, 1852

1:46

 

It is my intention to preach several discourses this evening, but howmany I do not know.

I will in the first place bear testimony to the truth of many remarks made by brother Hunter, and especially his exhortation to the Seventies and Elders, and those men who wish to go on missions. I wish also to urge the necessity of your proceeding on your missions immediately, and of going to the place of your destination full of the Holy Ghost, preaching righteousness to the people; and while you do this, live up to the principles you preach,that you may teach also by your example, as well as by precept. Go, ye Elders,and now consider yourselves from this time forth missionaries. If the Gospel is in you like a flaming fire, to be poured upon the people, gather your neighbors together, and give your brethren an invitation to your house,and set before them the duties of man; and preach, if you can speak but for five minutes, occupying that time to the best advantage. Continue to preach, study, and learn, by faith and prayer, until your minds and mouths are opened, and you understand most perfectly the love of Christ.

It is not uncommon for Elders to say, "If I could have a mission,and be sent among strangers, I could speak to them, because they have not been instructed in the way of life and salvation: I could lay before them the principles of the Gospel, which have been taught to me, without that diffidence of feeling, and fear, which I experience while speaking to my brethren." It is very true that the first principles of the Gospel taught by the Elders of this Church are easy to be understood, compared with what it is to preach them to our families, or to our neighborhood,and to govern and control ourselves by the principles of righteousness which the Gospel inculcates. Again, to gather the Saints, to preach the Gospel to the world, and convince them of the truth, are much easier tasks than to convince men that you can master yourself, and practise the moral principles inculcated by your religion. That is a small portion of the duty required of you in order to obtain crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives.I will here remark, that it is natural for the people to desire to know a great deal of the MYSTERIES; this, however, is not universally the case,though it is so with a great many of the Elders of Israel. I do not suppose it will apply to those who compose this congregation; your object in being here this evening is not to hear some great mystery of the Kingdom, which you never understood before. The greatest mystery a man ever learned, is to know how to control the human mind, and bring every faculty and power of the same in subjection to Jesus Christ; this is the greatest mystery we have to learn while in these tabernacles of clay. It is more necessary for the Elders to learn and practise upon this lesson in the midst of the Saints at head quarters than in the world; for their facilities for learning are much greater, and I will tell you wherein. Let a Bishop, a High Priest,a President of any Stake or Quorum, any who are Elders in Israel, or any individual Saint from the first to the last of them, fall into error, and it is at once made manifest; he cannot pursue that course any further, forhe is where he can learn his duties, and know how to walk straight in thepaths of righteousness. Here is the place for you to teach great mysteriesto your brethren, because here are those who can correct you. This faultthe Elders of Israel do not fall into in this Tabernacle, although theymay in private houses and neighborhoods. When a man is capable of correctingyou, and of giving you light, and true doctrine, do not get up an altercation,but submit to be taught like little children, and strive with all your mightto understand. The privileges of those who dwell here are greater than theprivileges of those who are abroad. When your duties call you into foreignlands, and you there exhaust your stock of knowledge and wisdom, and youare not in possession of the keys to obtain that instruction which you desire,it is because you are far from the right fountain-far from the body, whereall the members are in lively operation-where the eye can see, the ear hear,the nose smell, and the mouth speak, and so forth. When your face is turnedfrom the body, let mysteries alone, for this is the only place for you tobe corrected if wrong. Preach the simple, unadorned truth; work out yoursalvation with diligence, and do that which will guarantee you a warranteddeed, an undeniable title to eternal lives.

If you feel prayer in you, pray; and if you feel the spirit of preachingin you, preach; call in your brethren, and read the Bible, the Book of Mormon,the Book of Covenants, and the other revelations of God to them; and talkover the things contained in those books, and deal them out to your brethrenand neighbors; pray with them, and teach them how to control themselves;and let your teachings be sustained by your own example. Teach your familieshow to control themselves; teach them good and wholesome doctrine, and practicethe same in your own lives. This is the place for you to become polishedshafts in the quiver of the Almighty. This will answer for one sermon.

I feel much inclined to talk to the brethren: I have not had the privilegeof preaching much for some time, because of the inconvenience of our formermeeting place. Now, as we have a good, convenient place to meet in, andmy health will serve me, I expect to improve the time. I love to preachat home with the Saints. I love to meet with them, and look upon their happycountenances, lit up with the joys of eternity. In short, I love the societyof all good men, and to preach salvation to them.

You may consider what I shall now lay before you a small matter; butI think it of some importance. When the Elders of Israel leave this place,and go forth among the wicked, it is not their privilege to mingle withthem in any of their worldly exercises; for if they do, the devil will obtainan advantage over them, and succeed in drawing them away from the path oftheir duty. For instance-suppose you and I, with many more of the brethren,meet together in a convenient place in the Valley, and dance to the sweetstrains of the violin: we could do so with a perfect good will: but if weshould be called to England, and there have an invitation to join with thewicked in their pastimes and recreations, and we in our feelings bow downto this, and suffer our spirits to be subject to their commandments, wesuffer ourselves to be ruled over by them, and at once become their servants.While I am here, I am in the midst of the Priesthood of heaven, and in thecentre of the kingdom of God. We are before the Lord, where every hand Ishake is the hand of a Saint, and every face I see, when I look upon theassembled thousands, is the countenance of a Saint. I am the controllerand master of affairs here, under Heaven's direction; though there are thosewho do not believe this. I invite those who are not subject to me as theirPresident, not to contaminate my friends; for were I and my friends to becomesubject to those who object to us, we are then on the ground of the devil,and subject ourselves to him they serve.

Never suffer yourselves to mingle in any of those recreations that tendto sin and iniquity, while you are away from the body of the Church, whereyou cannot so fully control yourselves. Let the Elders who are going outfrom this place carry this instruction with them into the other portionsof the earth. Whatever a man does, let him do it in the name of the Lord-lethim work in the name of the Lord, let all his acts through life be in thename of the Lord; and if he wants light and knowledge, let him ask in thatname.

You are well aware that the wickedness of the world, or the apostacy of the Church, is so great, that those who now profess religion cannot enjoy their own natural privileges in the world. In many places their folly andsuperstition are so great that they would consider they had committed thesin of blasphemy if they happened to hear a violin. The whole world couldnot hire a good, honest, sound Presbyterian, of the old fashion and cut,to look into a room where a company of young men and women were dancing,lest they should sin against the Holy Ghost. This over-righteous notionis imbibed by the generality of professors of religion, but it is becausethey themselves have made it a sin. Let us look at the root of the matter.In the first place, some wise being organized my system, and gave me mycapacity, put into my heart and brain something that delights, charms, andfills me with rapture at the sound of sweet music. I did not put it there;it was some other being. As one of the modern writers has said, "Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast." It has been proved that sweetmusic will actually tame the most malicious and venomous beasts, even whenthey have been stirred up to violent wrath, and make them docile and harmlessas lambs. Who gave the lower animals a love for those sweet sounds, whichwith magic power fill the air with harmony, and cheer and comfort the heartsof men, and so wonderfully affect the brute creation? It was the Lord, ourHeavenly Father, who gave the capacity to enjoy these sounds, and whichwe ought to do in His name, and to His glory. But the greater portion ofthe sectarian world consider it sacrilege to give way to any such pleasureas even to listen to sweet music, much more to dance to its delightful strains.This is another short sermon.

I wish now to say a few words to the brethren upon the subject of tithing.It is well known to the majority of this Conference what transpired, lastConference, upon the stand in the old Bowery. At that Conference I had goodcause to find fault with the Bishops, and I took the liberty to brush themdown a little. From that day to this there has been more accomplished byour Bishops in the short space of seven months, than was accomplished bythem for the space of years previously. This gives me great satisfaction.The Bishops have done was well as men could do: their conduct in fulfillingthe duties of their calling has truly been praiseworthy, and I feel to blessthem, and pray the Lord to bless them all the day long, for they have donefirst rate. When we consider the ignorance of the world, their unbeliefin God, and realize that the vail of the covering is over the face of allnations, and remember the ignorance we were once in ourselves, having tocommence like babes at the rudiments of learning, knowing also how falteringmen are in their faith, and then look at what this people have accomplished,we are led to exclaim, "It is marvellous in our eyes!" Were Ito say, "Elders of Israel, you that feel to put your all upon the alter,rise upon your feet," who would be left? (All present rose up simultaneously.)Where is there another people upon the earth who would have done this? Ihave no tithing, but all-all I have is the Lord's. You know the word sacrifice:as brother Banks said to-day, it is a mere burlesque-a nonsensical term.No man ever heard me say I had made a sacrifice. I possess nothing but whatmy heavenly Father has been pleased to give me, or, in other words, He hasloaned it to me while I remain here in this mortal flesh.

It is not marvellous, considering the weakness of man, to see the willingnessof this whole people to die if necessary for the truth? How do you suppose it makes me feel? Though I may sometimes chastise my brethren, and speakto them in the language of reproof, there is not a father who feels moretenderly towards his offspring, and loves them better than I love this people;and my Father in heaven loves them; my heart yearns over them with all theemotions of tenderness, so that I could weep like a child; but I am carefulto keep my tears to myself. If you do wrong, it grieves my heart, and italso grieves the heart of my heavenly Father. I feel continually to urgemy brethren to cease from all evil, and learn to do well.

The fulness of the heavens and the earth is the Lord's-the gold and thesilver, the wheat, and fine flour, and the cattle upon a thousand hills;and when we fully understand His works, we shall know that He is in allthe earth, and fulfils His will among the children of men, exalting anddebasing them according to His pleasure; for the systems, creeds, thrones,and kingdoms of the world are all under His control. "Shall there beevil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it"-or that He doth notcontrol? The Lord controls the whole; and in the end, you will find He hasregulated all things right, for all will be consummated to His glory.

The children of men are made as independent in their sphere as the Lordis in His, to prove themselves, pursue which path they please, and choosethe evil or the good. For those who love the Lord, and do His will, allis right, and they shall be crowned, but those who hate His ways shall bedamned, for they choose to be damned.

As I was meditating on the philosophy of the day, it occurred to my mindhow visible it must appear to all eyes that the Lord does indeed work, thatit is He who blesses this people; and yet it seems as though they cannotsee His hand. The Lord fills the immensity of space. What saith the Psalmist?"Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thypresence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed inhell, behold thou art there; if I take the wings of the morning, and dwellin the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me."I was trying to think of the place where God is not, but it is impossible,unless you can find empty space; and there I believe He is not. If you canfind such a place, it will become useful for a hiding place to those whowish to hide themselves from the presence of the Lord, in the great dayof accounts. I will close this sermon, as I intend to preach another beforeI present the subject I more particularly wish to speak upon.

My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle,or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacleas we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote abou this father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal.

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our FATHER andour GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good forman; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, theFather had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by theHoly Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest ofthe sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession.I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the wholetruth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitiousand over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era;and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming" great is the mystery of godliness," and tell nothing.

It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, "it is an immaterial substance!" What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.

I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever,that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea-"if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties."

Treasure these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read.I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject?Comparatively nothing.

I will now again take up the subject of tithing. The brethren have done well. They have been willing and obedient, no people could have been more so; for this I thank my Father in Heaven. I could not wish a people to work more kindly in the yoke of Jesus than this people do; the yoke grows more and more easy to them. It seems that every man will not only pay his tithing,but give all he has, if the Lord requires it: still I see wherein they Mayo better. I asked the people to day to assist to pay our Church liabilities.The offer of three or four yoke of oxen only, we do not want; but I will lay before you what we wish you to do. By the manifesto which has been read,you have learned the precise situation of the property of the Church. What has incurred this debt? Why does it exist in the shape in which it now appears?And wherein could we have obviated the difficulty, and done better? A fourth part of the money already paid out, did not come in upon tithing. This money we have had to borrow in order to keep the public works in progress. You may say, wherein could we have done better, for we have paid our tithing punctually? But has that brother, who sent $100 back to the East for merchandize,paid $10 of it into the tithing office? Or did the brother who has sent$500 back, let us have $50? No; these have used it themselves, and thereby involved those who bear the responsibilities of the Trust. Again, those who have not possessed sufficient money to send back for merchandize, have been necessitated to pay out what they had. Thousands of dollars have been paid here for merchandize. Has one-tenth of all that money been paid into the tithing office? It has not. And where is the tithing that should have come in from England and California. Instead of tithing their money, they have used it for other purposes, and paid it in property, with which we could not pay our debts. This is wherein we have failed to liquidate our debts. The people go to these Gentile stores, on the Saturday, in crowds,to purchase goods. I think we shall not over-rate the amount, if we say that $500,000 has been paid, in these vallies, to the merchants. But suppose they have received no more than $50,000 from this community, $5,000 of that money ought to have been first paid into the tithing office; and we could have sent it to the States, and purchased goods ourselves, for one-third or one-half less than we have to pay the merchants here. And $25,000 more should have come into the tithing office from the Church in the United States.The brethren in California have made no less than $100,000, the tenth of which is due this tithing office. For want of this money, we are brought into bondage; and we must now apply our faith and works to raise means to liquidate our indebtedness, which has accumulated by purchasing goods thigh and extortionate prices. I find no fault with the merchants, for they came here to gather gold by the hundred weight.

Now, brethren, and Bishops, look over this matter, and try to think whetter feelings would be if you were laid under the same responsibility that I and my brethren have upon our shoulders. We are required to see the Gospel preached to the nations afar off, to build council houses and temples, to cope with the united wisdom and craft of legislative assemblies, and with the powers of darkness in high places; and then place yourselves in the circumstances we are now placed in! Besides all this, see the hundreds who come to us every day to be administered to in various ways: some want fruit,some sugar, others tea, and all want clothing, &c. Then step into our private rooms, where we commune with the people, and you will see and hear all this, and a great deal more. Instead of every man bringing his picayune,or his six pence, or his $5, &c., as tithing on the money in his possession,it is all used for something else, and the storehouse of the Lord is left empty. Suppose nothing had been put in there but what the people have put in, the workmen would have been naked. Walk into the storehouse, and examine for yourselves. To be sure there has been a little clothing put in lately;for instance, there was an old silk dress put in for $40, that had been lying for years rotting in the chest: this is a specimen of the rest. What are such things worth to our workmen? Why, nothing at all. We wish you to put in strong and substantial clothing. Good, strong, homemade stuffs make the most suitable clothing for those who are building up the public works.

Will you help us out of this thraldom, and have it credited to your future tithing? There is already a great deal more due than would liquidate all our debts, but we cannot command it now. Do you feel willing to put your shoulder to the wheel, and continue to roll it forward, and still continue,you that have faith to continue, to increase in faith? for the business of this kingdom will increase, and the responsibility also; the labor will and must grow and continue to increase, until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and His Christ. So much tithing; you see where the failure is; it is in that point, and nowhere else.

It is not for any man to think he is a cipher-that what he can do will not tell in this matter, and say, "They will get along well enough without me;" but it is every man's duty to lay it to heart, and help what he can with his earthly substance; though I wish you to understand distinctly that it is no commandment-you are left to act freely.

Let all the sheep stay in the Valley; also the cows; for they will give milk and butter, and replenish the stock. But when we speak of the horses,mules, and oxen, let every man look up his spare stock of this description,and with them help to liquidate these debts. Stock will now pay debts. I will use my stock for this purpose, and my brethren will do the same, until we have enough. I do not enjoin this upon you, as you have already paid the tithing which is required of you; except in some instances in the money tithing. Had we received the money due to us, we should have had no debts;but this failure has been, and is now, in existence. I will take every kind of spare stock I have, except my cows and sheep, and wipe off these debts until they are cancelled; and now every man who will do the same, let him rise upon his feet. (The whole congregation of two thousand men rose up to a man.) Do you suppose we want to deprive you of your teams? It is notso, but we wished to know the state of your faith, so that when we are readyto call upon you, we can be sure our call will be responded to. I wouldnot cripple any man, I would rather give him five yoke of oxen, than destroyhis team, and you know it. (Some of the brethren in the stand, not believingtheir own eyes, that the whole congregation rose, it was tried over again,to satisfy them, when the congregation all rose again to a man.) BrotherHunter now knows what to do. Many of the brethren are killing their calves;don't do this; if you cannot raise them, it will be better to give themaway to those who can.

I bless you, and may the Lord bless you, in the name of Jesus Christ.Amen.


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: 19; adamgod; lds; mormon; plumnuts; revelation2218
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This one speaks for itself.

For discussion.

Keep it Civil.

1 posted on 05/08/2008 7:35:42 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: greyfoxx39; colorcountry; Pan_Yans Wife; MHGinTN; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; Osage Orange; ...
Since some people have been accused of quoting Mormon prophets and apostles out of context, I think it is important that whole sermons preached by these men be posted.

This is a particularly interesting sermon with a lot of Theological implications.

2 posted on 05/08/2008 7:41:05 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

At the risk of sounding uncivil, you guys are killing me with the onslaught of LDS stuff lately....


3 posted on 05/08/2008 7:42:28 PM PDT by Ravens70
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To: Ravens70
Thank you for your post, kind sir.

Did you read the Sermon?

4 posted on 05/08/2008 7:45:12 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Yes, I did and I stand by my comment.


5 posted on 05/08/2008 7:52:43 PM PDT by Ravens70
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To: Ravens70
Yes, I did and I stand by my comment.

What did you think of the sermon?

Did you find it edifying?

Was it theologically challenging?

6 posted on 05/08/2008 7:54:46 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
So far it's a waste of bandwidth, IMHO. If we're going to turn this into a theological discussion thread, why don't you tell us what you think and why you posted it?

I'm honestly not against this sort of topic, I even enjoy it, but lately all we've gotten is people posting text and demanding that other people discuss it. What are you trying to get across by it? Please?

7 posted on 05/08/2008 7:58:20 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: P-Marlowe

I am currently in “thraldom” (?)....sounds a lot like an Obama speech...


8 posted on 05/08/2008 8:00:14 PM PDT by Ravens70
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To: P-Marlowe

Do you honestly believe anyone is going to read what you wrote. Are you serious? And with a screaming ALL CAPS headline no less.


9 posted on 05/08/2008 8:02:31 PM PDT by gogov
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To: P-Marlowe
This is a particularly interesting sermon with a lot of Theological implications.

Post it somewhere else. Not here.

10 posted on 05/08/2008 8:03:31 PM PDT by gogov
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To: Billthedrill
So far it's a waste of bandwidth, IMHO. If we're going to turn this into a theological discussion thread, why don't you tell us what you think and why you posted it?

I did. See post #2.

I'm honestly not against this sort of topic, I even enjoy it, but lately all we've gotten is people posting text and demanding that other people discuss it.

I don't DEMAND that anyone read anything. I posted this sermon and opened it up to discussion. That is what people do on the Religion Forum. What was it about this sermon that got your dander up?

Did you read the sermon? Not that I want you to do anything you don't want to do. This is FREE Republic, you know. You are free to read what people post and comment or you are free to simply ignore it and find something more interesting.

11 posted on 05/08/2008 8:04:57 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: gogov
Post it somewhere else. Not here.

What is it about this sermon that makes you so violently opposed to it being posted here on Free Republic?

Was it something the Prophet said that got you upset?

Did you even read the sermon?

12 posted on 05/08/2008 8:06:44 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: gogov
Do you honestly believe anyone is going to read what you wrote. Are you serious? And with a screaming ALL CAPS headline no less.

Forum rules prevent me from changing the Title or the headlines. I abridged the Title, but the Title was in ALL CAPS in the original.

Did you read the sermon?

Did you find it edifying?

13 posted on 05/08/2008 8:08:48 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
This is a particularly interesting sermon with a lot of Theological implications.

Adam = God
God physically 'begat' Jesus

sshhhhh, might sound like hate speech

14 posted on 05/08/2008 8:10:05 PM PDT by Godzilla (I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.)
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To: P-Marlowe
No, with respect, I think you're missing my point. I'm perfectly aware of what happens in the burgeoning Religion forum but I'm afraid - nothing personal, I assure you - but I'm afraid some of its inhabitants feel that it's enough simply to post a very large lump of text and say "have at it." Have at what? What aspects of this do you want to discuss?

You say it's important to consider the sermon. Why? What is there about it that you feel is important? Thousands of people are looking at this right now and most of them are scratching their heads wondering if it's worth reading the entire thing. That doubt is entirely justified if you don't help them - us - out a little.

That's really all I have to say in the matter. Good luck with your thread and have a great evening.

15 posted on 05/08/2008 8:14:21 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: P-Marlowe
sermon with a lot of Theological implications.

sermon with a lot of theological problems!

16 posted on 05/08/2008 8:19:13 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Billthedrill; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; xzins; greyfoxx39; colorcountry; Colofornian
You say it's important to consider the sermon. Why? What is there about it that you feel is important? Thousands of people are looking at this right now and most of them are scratching their heads wondering if it's worth reading the entire thing. That doubt is entirely justified if you don't help them - us - out a little.

Instead of trying to question me and find out what I think, Why don't you read the sermon and tell me what YOU think?

What is wrong with posting a sermon for discussion. I think over the years I have posted hundreds of sermons from preachers like Ray Stedman, Charles Spurgeon, Jacob Arminius, John Calvin; Martin Luther. I usually don't give my opinion when I post such a sermon. I don't think that is the norm here. The norm is just to post a sermon and let people give their reactions.

Then again if you don't want to read this sermon. That's fine with me. Whatever. I'm easy.

17 posted on 05/08/2008 8:22:03 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: colorcountry; Pan_Yans Wife; MHGinTN; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; Osage Orange; Greg F; ...

PING


18 posted on 05/08/2008 8:23:16 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: LiteKeeper
sermon with a lot of theological problems!

Be nice.

This guy was a Prophet, you know.

19 posted on 05/08/2008 8:23:16 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Billthedrill; P-Marlowe
Why? What is there about it that you feel is important? Thousands of people are looking at this right now and most of them are scratching their heads wondering if it's worth reading the entire thing.

If I may interject quickly. One of the biggest complaints of the use of quotes from prophets and apostles of the mormon church is that they are taken so far out of context that the presentation of those quotes mis-represents the teachings. As I noted a few posts earlier - in the sermon alone Young (the second prophet of mormonism) states that Adam = God and that Adam/God has a physical body (fully functional) and impregnated Mary. If this was isolated it would be one thing. However, this teaching is echoed by many other prophets and apostles. If you know other Christian teachings, you will find many other nuggets of non-Christian doctrines in this sermon. All this to say that mormons on the other threads are trying to impose their teachings here with out response - we are to be silent and condone them and call them Christian too. We feel that if non-mormons can read what their leaders really taught, fewer people will fall for it. We now return to our regularly scheduled freeping.

20 posted on 05/08/2008 8:23:40 PM PDT by Godzilla (I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.)
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To: Godzilla
We now return to our regularly scheduled freeping.

Thank you for your contribution, kind sir.

21 posted on 05/08/2008 8:25:43 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Funny, not one Mormon would like to comment on the words of their prophet.


22 posted on 05/08/2008 8:29:04 PM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: colorcountry; greyfoxx39; Colofornian; Godzilla
Funny, not one Mormon would like to comment on the words of their prophet.

Be nice.

Give them time.

Right after I first read this sermon (when I was a Senior in High School), I was suddenly no longer a Mormon.

23 posted on 05/08/2008 8:31:20 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
When the Elders of Israel leave this place,and go forth among the wicked, it is not their privilege to mingle withthem in any of their worldly exercises; for if they do, the devil will obtainan advantage over them, and succeed in drawing them away from the path oftheir duty. For instance-suppose you and I, with many more of the brethren,meet together in a convenient place in the Valley, and dance to the sweetstrains of the violin: we could do so with a perfect good will: but if weshould be called to England, and there have an invitation to join with thewicked in their pastimes and recreations, and we in our feelings bow downto this, and suffer our spirits to be subject to their commandments, wesuffer ourselves to be ruled over by them, and at once become their servants

Why I declare, it sounds to me as if the Lord, through his Prophet, thinks the English are wicked.

24 posted on 05/08/2008 8:31:21 PM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: colorcountry
Why I declare, it sounds to me as if the Lord, through his Prophet, thinks the English are wicked.

Have you been to England lately?

25 posted on 05/08/2008 8:32:29 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

: )


26 posted on 05/08/2008 8:34:08 PM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Godzilla
:^) You be flyin' in that 'ilky' way, Inman! ... Now back to dive, Dive DIVE!
27 posted on 05/08/2008 8:35:17 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

Thank you for your contribution, kind sir.


28 posted on 05/08/2008 8:39:37 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: MHGinTN

Don’t forget to shut that screen door!


29 posted on 05/08/2008 8:43:54 PM PDT by Godzilla (I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.)
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To: P-Marlowe

Why do God and the angels speak in archaic English?


30 posted on 05/08/2008 8:44:46 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Godzilla
Glub glub glub ... now you tell me!
31 posted on 05/08/2008 8:52:15 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: P-Marlowe

From the sermon, “When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our FATHER andour GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.”
And this is based upon what?


32 posted on 05/08/2008 8:56:02 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
And this is based upon what?

Brigham Young was a Prophet.

I guess you'll just have to take him at his word.

33 posted on 05/08/2008 9:03:10 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Head spinning...

Dizzy..........


34 posted on 05/08/2008 9:32:28 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: greyfoxx39

Thank you...

Already have pretty spots before my eyes...


35 posted on 05/08/2008 9:33:32 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana; greyfoxx39; colorcountry; MHGinTN; Godzilla; Colofornian
Head spinning... Dizzy..........

Thank you for your input.

When I was a young Mormon, we used to stand up in church once a month and give our testimonies. Before I read this sermon as a Senior in High School I would often stand up in Church and recite something like this:

"I know that the Book of Mormon is True. I know that the LDS church is the only true church on the earth. I know that Joseph Smith was a True Prophet of God. I know that Brigham Young was a True Prophet of God. I know that David O Mckay is God's living Prophet upon the earth."

Right after I read this sermon, I was no longer able to say such things.

This is a powerful sermon.

It changed my life.

36 posted on 05/08/2008 9:46:07 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

“Since some people have been accused of quoting Mormon prophets and apostles out of context, I think it is important that whole sermons preached by these men be posted.”

Since the only thing people appear to be allowed to post is the Mormon side of things, I believe you are right. Fortunately, those whole sermons speak for themselves.

I have tried to give first hand original accounts, based on the writings of both Gentiles and Mormons.

Parley P. Pratt - full Mormon
Ann Young - born Mormon, 19th wife to Brigam Young
Mrs Stenton “Tell It All” - full Mormon convert turned Apostate
Ebeneezer Robinson - full Mormon, even responsible for printing on his own the third prining of the BOM
The Nauvoo Expositor, all editors being recent Mormons
Governor Ford - non-Mormon
Reed Peck - full Mormon who lapsed after being jailed at Liberty
the Mormon War Letters (archive state of Missouri)

Unfortunately, quoting people who were there first hand now seems impermissible because the truth is embarassing and is therefore “bashing”. Once you start down this path though, where do you stop? If one is a basher for pointing out that philosophies pulled out of a hat by looking through a peepstonew are highly suspect to the point of being ludicrous, what logic could ever prevail?

If I believe 2 + 2 = 5 because it was handed down to me by a dead Jewish Indian on Golden Tablets, should I be allowed to design a jet airline? Apparently that is the slope we are on.


37 posted on 05/08/2008 9:52:24 PM PDT by FastCoyote (I am intolerant of the intolerable.)
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To: FastCoyote; Tennessee Nana; greyfoxx39; colorcountry; MHGinTN; Godzilla; Colofornian
If one is a basher for pointing out that philosophies pulled out of a hat by looking through a peepstonew are highly suspect to the point of being ludicrous, what logic could ever prevail?

As Jesus said: "where are those thine accusers?"

Obviously not on this thread.

But it's still early.

38 posted on 05/08/2008 10:03:16 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: gogov
Don’t lie. You can change someone’s ALL CAPS bad style when you post a headline.

I just posted the sermon exactly as it was printed in the original. If you don't believe me, then follow the link at the top of the sermon.

Are you allergic to ALL CAPS?

Are you a disgruntled ex-Telegraph operator?

I don't understand why the caps bother you so much.

Sorry if I offended you with all the caps.

can i make it up to you by not capitalizing anything?

And again, stop lying. It is a sin.

This is the religion forum. Personal attacks are discouraged.

BTW how did you like the sermon?

40 posted on 05/08/2008 10:26:47 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Most religions have one or two unusual practices or devices but occasionally you find one which is just completely weird. This list contains ten of the more unusual things found in modern religions.

In some denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement, the temple garment (or the Garment of the Holy Priesthood, or informally, the garment or garments) is a set of sacred underclothing worn by adult adherents who have taken part in a ritual ceremony known as washing and anointing ordinance, usually in a temple as part of the Endowment ceremony. Adherents consider them to be sacred and may be offended by public discussion of the garments. Anti-Mormon activists have publicly displayed or defaced temple garments to show their opposition to the LDS Church.

That is what is written in an article about Morman undergarments. Can you please explain to us if it is true that Mormon's wear special holy underwear and if so, why?

I guess if we can learn about typesetting on FR (CBS scandal) we can learn about religious underwear also. Since you brought up the subject of religion, we might as well be edified on this one.

41 posted on 05/08/2008 10:26:50 PM PDT by gogov
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To: gogov
I guess if we can learn about typesetting on FR (CBS scandal) we can learn about religious underwear also.

Was there some mention of religious underwear in the sermon? I didn't notice it. Maybe you could point it out to me.

BTW I always wear underwear to church. I think it is bad form not to wear underwear, even if it leaves a panty line.

42 posted on 05/08/2008 10:29:55 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: gogov
I see your post #40 got removed.

Bummer.

I didn't push the abuse button. I don't know who did.

BTW we are trying to have a civil discussion regarding this very profound Sermon by Mormon Prophet Brigham Young. So if you could try not to post something that the Religion Moderator will yank, that would be helpful.

Thank you for your assistance in keeping this thread going.

44 posted on 05/08/2008 10:35:28 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: gogov
OK, I think you may be pushing the envelope with that one.

Are you trying to get this thread pulled or are you just trying to keep it bumped to the top?

45 posted on 05/08/2008 10:37:28 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

You know what, it was my mistake. I had no idea there actually was a religious forum on FR. Have at it. I’ll exclude it from my list of forums that come up when I search.

You have my apology. I thought this was way out of line for a political forum, thus my reaction. I still find it a bit odd but that’s me. It is allowed.


46 posted on 05/08/2008 10:40:08 PM PDT by gogov
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To: gogov
You've been here since March 18, 2000 and you didn't know there was a religion forum?

Wow.

Yes there is. And as a general rule, I think the mods frown on posting pictures of people in their underwear in the religion forum.

For most of this week the LDS Threads had all been moved to the News/Activism forum. Hence there was a lot of really weird stuff that may have shocked a lot of non-religion-forum visiting freepers. But they have decided to move it all back into the Religion Ghetto (as we used to call it) and if you don't go venturing into the religion forum, you can avoid seeing all this religious stuff.

Thanks for visiting.

Come back and visit us again after you have some treatment for that ALL CAPS phobia. :-)

47 posted on 05/08/2008 10:45:36 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

I’ve read it. Your disguising yourself as a Mormon isn’t working. Your posting history is too rich for that.

The Adam God theory debunked:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Adam-God


48 posted on 05/08/2008 10:46:56 PM PDT by sevenbak (1 Corinthians 2:14)
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To: sevenbak
Posters do not have to be a member of the confession to post Holy writ, doctrines, sermons, etc. of that confession.

Your disguising yourself

Attributing motives and reading minds are types of "making it personal."
49 posted on 05/08/2008 10:53:52 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: sevenbak; greyfoxx39; colorcountry; Colofornian
Your disguising yourself as a Mormon isn’t working.

Where did I do that?

I think I made it very clear that after I read this powerful sermon by Mormon Prophet Brigham Young, I was no longer a Mormon.

I think I posted that thought at least twice.

This will make it the third time.

BTW, it seems you are the first follower of Brigham Young to actually post here.

The Adam God theory debunked:

Debunking your own prophet?

Anyway, thank you for your post.

We appreciate your input. It seems you are the first follower of Brigham Young to actually post here.

50 posted on 05/08/2008 10:55:48 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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