Posted on 05/12/2008 5:25:02 AM PDT by Petrosius
Indeed that is a miracle of God!
OK, this is in the US!! When I first read the article I thought that this was in Iraq or Syria, or some place, until I clicked on the link.
This hierarch looks like a disobedient, prideful schismatic to me (and a simplistic “theologian”). Rome has been fishing in some troubled waters here and I must say that I see no good coming from this.
Well, I hope The Church didn’t go about trying to break up the Assyrian Church further — however, do note that it may be advantageous for all to move into the Chaldean Church in the Catholic Church — more power in numbers.
Well Kolokotronis, I think Cronos statement is consistent with mine. Notice that the Assyrian Group entered into Communion with the Chaldean Catholic Church, and thus is now in Full Communion with the Catholic Church. The Chaldeans have been very loyal to Rome while at the same time faithful to their Antiochene-East Syrian Tradition. Thus, perhaps this could be a way that can eventually bring all the Assyrians into Full Communion with Rome, via the Chaldean Catholic Church. For example, is this new Assyrian Group can show its fellow Assyrians that Communion with Rome can be entered into without compromising their Eastern Liturgical and Theological Tradition.
Regards
On the contrary, it takes a great deal of humility, especially on the part of a Bishop, to submit to the primacy of the Bishop of Rome in the interests of achieving full ecclesial communion with the Holy See.
From his presentations given in public in several Chaldean communities on the West Coast, I saw nothing "prideful" about this very soft-spoken and sincere hierarch.
Nor, from people involved in this whole process, was there any "fishing" going on on the part of Rome. This bishop and his people took the initiative and, AS ALWAYS IN MY EXPERIENCE, the Catholic authorities were very measured in their response to these initiatives.
And, finally, I suppose those in communion with the Holy See and Orthodox Christians would have very different definitions of "schismatic."
This will shake up the mideast, no?
Seems as though there is some controversy here, however.
Funny, just this morning I got a call from someone involved in the dialog between Orthodoxy and Rome asking if I had seen this article, or one like it. Apparently this is causing all sorts of trouble, especially in Constantinople and Moscow. As of about 2 hours ago the sentiment seemed to be to call off any further discussions with Rome until this apparent expansion of Rome’s Uniate solution can be examined. More troubling is the G2 that Rome was warned that there could be trouble from the embrace of this disobedient hierarch if Rome went forward. Looks like Rome doesn’t care what at least some major Orthodox hierarchs think. I told my caller I wasn’t surprised.
Is it your impression that the Orthodox have EVER cared what Rome thinks?
Is Alexy II anyone’s idea of a “gracious partner” in ecumenical dialogue?
How about the Greek hierachs demanding that John Paul II “do penance” before he’d be given permission to visit Greece? Ever read the thoughts of the Athos monks or the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia regarding us?
I’m sorry, but it seems to me that when it comes to ecumenism between our Churches, it’s almost always a one-way street, and not Rome’s way, by the way.
Let’s be honest, EVERYTHING that happens is a cause - or rather, an excuse - for the Orthodox side to call off dialogue.
And when it comes to the “Uniate Solution,” you’d have to go a long way to match Moscow’s complicity with Joseph Stalin’s “Uniate Solution.”
Disobedient to whom? I thought that all bishops were equal. If the Bishop of Constantinople can break union with the Bishop of Rome, why can not Bishop Mar Bawai Soro re-establish it?
You mean to tell me that Rome should refuse to accept into communion any Orthodox bishops when they approach on their own initiative. And what authority do either Constantinople or Moscow have over a bishop of the Assyrian Church of the East in the first place?
“You mean to tell me that Rome should refuse to accept into communion any Orthodox bishops when they approach on their own initiative.”
Absolutely.
“And what authority do either Constantinople or Moscow have over a bishop of the Assyrian Church of the East in the first place?”
None.
BTW, in all honesty, I am glad this has happened since to my way of thinking, a way which is shared by at least a few other Orthodox, the dialogs have ignored the true nature of the current ecclesiology of the Latin Church in favor of discussions of what it should or would be in a reunited Church. This sort of action on the part of Rome reminds the hierarchs of present reality, which is a good thing.
As for ecumenism being a one way street when it comes to orthodoxy, well, I think that’s a bit of a stretch but it isn’t completely unfair. The truth of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of Orthodox laity, monastics and lower clergy are opposed to any reunion with the Latin Church. At the present time this notion is pretty much exclusively the province of the hierarchs. Actions like this one with this sliver of the Assyrian Church and its disobedient hierarch means that some get to tell the hierarchs “told ya so”. Its not that Orthodox people and monastics and lower clergy, as a general proposition, bear any intense animosity to Rome, not anymore anyway. Its just that most Orthodox folk really see no need for, nor do they have any desire for, reunion with Rome even on Orthodoxy’s terms, let alone on anything approaching Rome’s. Most, I suspect, take the Moscow position that we can be allies without submitting to the immediate, universal jurisdiction of an infallible bishop in Rome. In the meantime we should leave each other alone.
Is the sentiment you referr to the sentiment of some layman who doesn’t like the fact that the Bishop and the 3,000 Assyrians chose communion with Rome.
Lets look at some historical context, the Assyrian Church has not been in communion with the Undivided West and East since about 410 AD, which was befor the Council of Ephesus. They were under the Antiochene Primacy, which was stated in Canon 6 of the Council of Nicea, but broke communion from Antioch and established their own Assyrian Patriarch.
So the issue is why would the Orthdox Churches get upset about a Church that has in fact, never been under an Orthodox Patriarch, or if they were, it would be the Antiochene Patriarch, of which there is both a Melkite-Catholic one and and an Orthodox one, and relations between those two Churches are great.
Regardless, the Assyrian Church of the East has never been under the Patriarch of Constantinopile, which was not recognized as a Primatial See until the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD, and most certainly, Patriarch Alexy has no dawg in this fight as Moscow can in no way claim that the Assyrian Church should come under its Jurisdiction.
I will take this one step further, the Patriarch of the Armenian Church, which has not been in Full communion with Rome or the East since 451 AD (Chalcedon) just spent 3 days with Rome in dialogue. If the Armenian Church chooses to enter Full Communion with the Bishop of Rome, why would the Orthodox Church get upset given the Armenians have their own autonomous Church, which has not been in Communion with Rome or Constantinopile for over 1,500 years.
Regards
You’ve missed the point, as have the others on this thread.
The issue is that Rome has accepted a disobedient hierarch from an Oriental Orthodox Church into one of its Eastern Rite Churches at a time when the hierarchs of the Assyrian Church were exercising their appropriate jurisdiction to discipline the man. The fact that the Assyrian Church is “monophysite” and has been out of communion for 1600 years is neither here nor there. In fact, by economia, Oriental Orthodox have been allowed to receive the sacraments in Orthodox Churches and vice versa for some years now so the schism between the Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox is not as you suppose.
Rome’s actions speak about the intrusive power claimed and asserted by the Vatican in the affairs of another particular church. This isn’t a priest or two or a few parishioners leaving one particular church for another. This is a hierarch under discipline. That’s the difference and that’s what makes this a matter of concern.
Finally, the sentiments were not expressed to me by a lay person or a member of the lower clergy.
***************
I see.
So the Bishop presents a paper about the Primacy of Rome and the hope for Full Communion with Rome, and Five days later he is disciplined. One wonders what the “politics behind the scenes” were really about? I think the Assyrians and the Chaldeans in One “sui juris” Church is a “good thing” for the Iraqi Christians. It seems to me at least, some Orthodox are not happy that an Eastern Bishop, and one who I repeat, has not been in “Full Communion” with either Rome or Constantinopile for 1,600 years, presented an argument to his fellow Assyrian Bishops that supported communion with Rome, rather than communion with an Orthodox Patriarch. Thus, IMO, this is more about politics, than doctrine.
As for the sharing of the sacraments between the Assyrians and the Eastern Orthdox, that is a good thing, but the Catholic Church has no doctrinal statement preventing Assyrians receiving the Eucharist and other sacraments in the Catholic Church. In fact, the General Instructions of the Roman Missal (GIRM) clearly state that Assyrians and the other Oriental Churches that are not in communion with the Eastern Orthodox are welcome to participate in the Eucharist in the Catholic Church. So, on that point, the Catholic Church’ relation with the Assyrians is no different than the Eastern Orthodox relationship with the Assyrians.
So when we get down to it, is the real problem here that this Bishop has long been an advocate for Full Communion with Rome and thus his actions might result in other Eastern Churches that have not been in Full Communion with either Rome or Constantinopile to seek full Communion wiht Rome rather than Constantinopile?
“So the Bishop presents a paper about the Primacy of Rome and the hope for Full Communion with Rome, and Five days later he is disciplined.”
Did you read the paper? Its the work of theological simpleton. A first year doctoral candidate in theology would be flunked for writing such jejune drivel. I know what he is trying to say, I think, and I think I agree with him at least to a point but that isn’t the “point”. His Synod reviewed the matter (and apparently previous antics on his part, like refusal of reassignment to a see which needed a hierarch more than where he is), gave him a chance to straighten out and in exchange got defiance. They disciplined and he decamped for Rome having taken a number of shots at the presiding hierarch on the way out the door. Very, very bad ecclesiology. Its also very, very bad ecclesiastical politics. It seems that the fact that this is about politics rather than “doctrine” bothers you. C, 99% of this stuff, at Rome or elsewhere is about politics. Don;t be naive.
“So when we get down to it, is the real problem here that this Bishop has long been an advocate for Full Communion with Rome and thus his actions might result in other Eastern Churches that have not been in Full Communion with either Rome or Constantinopile to seek full Communion wiht Rome rather than Constantinopile?”
No, what we have here is a disobedient hierarch avoiding canonically imposed discipline and Rome providing a way for him to do that. C, can you understand that that sort of behavior is precisely what sets the Orthodox off?
What really is seen here is that it is the power of the Holy Spirit that is calling an ancient branch of the Christian faith ( the 3,000 Assyrians ) are simply obeying the call by this same Holy Spirit to come home to Rome in unity. This is the unity that Jesus prayed for in John 17.
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