What if they're....
Posted on 05/17/2008 2:20:33 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
Mormon Legends and Traditions About the Return of Israel
Prophecies, like fertile fields, produce good weeds, and none more so among Latter-day Saints than the field of prophecy dealing with the gathering of Israel and the leading of the ten tribes from the lands of the north. Theological dandelions and doctrinal thistles are thought by some to be the most beautiful of Zion's flowers. Consider the following:
The Star Theory. One of our all-time favorites is the idea that the ten tribes were taken away from this earth in a manner similar to that of the city of Enoch and that they now reside on another planet which is yet to return. Our primary source for this is Eliza R. Snow, who wrote it in the form of a lyric which appeared in the Church hymnal from 1856 to 1912. They key stanzas were as follows:
Thou, Earth, was once a glorious sphere Of noble magnitude, And didst with majesty appear Among the worlds of God.
But thy dimensions have been torn Asunder, piece by piece, And each dismember'd fragment borne Abroad to distant space.
When Enoch could no longer stay Amid corruption here, Part of thyself was borne away To form another sphere.
That portion where his city stood He gain'd by right approv'd; And nearer to the throne of God His planet upward moved.
And when the Lord saw fit to hide The "ten lost tribes" away, Thou, Earth, wast sever'd to provide The orb on which they stay.And thus, from time to time, thy size Has been diminish'd still Thou seemest the law of sacrifice Created to fulfil.
It is argued that since Eliza was married to Joseph Smith [Eliza Roxey Snow (1804-87) was baptized in 1835 and was sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith on June 29, 1842.] she certainly got the doctrine from him. It is held that this is a doctrine that Joseph taught to his wives and his closest friends. [R. Clayton Brough, The Lost Tribes (Horizon Publishers, 1979), pg 47.] There is also a supporting statement attributed to the grandson of a man with whom the Prophet once stayed. In response to his grandfather's question as to where the ten tribes were, Joseph Smith reportedly took him outside and pointed to a star twenty feet (from their position) to the right and below the north star. [_Ibid., pg 47-48.] Eliza R. Snow also purportedly told his grandfather that she got her information on this matter from the Prophet. [Robert W. Smith, The Last Days (SLC: Pyramid Press, 1947), pg 225-27.] In addition, we are told by a son of Anson Call, a particular friend of the Prophet, that Joseph told him in company with others on a number of occasions that the ten tribes were on a portion of the earth that had been taken away. [Ibid., pg 215. See also Parley P. Pratt, Millennial Star, Vol. 1, pg 258 (Question 7), and Writings of Parley P. Pratt (Parker Pratt Robinson: SLC, 1952), pg 306-307.]
The Hollow Earth Theory. Another of our traditions holds that the ten tribes are hidden in a hollow of the earth somewhere. Sources include Benjamin F. Johnson, personal friend of Joseph Smith, who records the following conversation: "I asked where the nine and a half tribes of Israel were. 'Well,' said [Joseph Smith], 'you remember the old caldron or potash kettle you used to boil maple sap in for sugar, don't you?' I said yes. 'Well,' said he, 'they are in the north pole in a concave just like the shape of that kettle. And John the Revelator is with them, preparing them for their return.'" [Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life's Review (Independence, MO: Zion's Printing and Publishing Co., n.d.), pg 93.]
Another published version of the hollow earth theory takes us to Mexico, where there is a large cave opening on the side of a cliff which David O. McKay is said to have said "led to the center of the earth, and that it was the access to the outer world for the ten tribes." The cliff is, of course, too high to scale from the bottom and is protected from the top by a large overhanging ledge. No one has ever been able to enter it. [Susan Peterson, "The Great and Dreadful Day: Mormon Folklore of the Apocalypse," Utah Historical Quarterly, Fall 1976, No. 1, pg 373.]
Knob on the Earth Theory. We learn from a son of Philo Dibble that Joseph Smith drew a picture for his father to show him where the ten tribes were. The picture consisted of a circle with a smaller circle on each side, something like a round face with round ears. The Prophet explained that one of these lobes (the one above the north pole) represented the orb upon which the ten tribes resided. Presumably the other lobe, beneath the south pole, was for the city of Enoch. It is also assumed that these smaller planets are connected to the earth by an invisible neck of land. [Matthew W. Dalton, A Key to This Earth (Willard, Utah: 1906; See also Walt Whipple, "A Discussion of the Many Theories Concerning the Whereabouts of the Lost Ten Tribes," BYU Library, unpublished typescript; and Brough, pg 51-55.]
The North Pole Theory. The argument in this instance is that the ten tribes live in a mysteriously camouflaged area somewhere near the North Pole. Among is strong advocates have been W. W. Phelps [W. W. Phelps, "A Letter to Oliver Cowdery," Messenger and Advocate 2:194 (October 1835).], who we are reminded acted as scribe at times for the Prophet Joseph, Orson Pratt, and George Reynolds. Elder Pratt expounded on the often-quoted text from 2 Esdras (an apocryphal work, which we must consider), which speaks of the ten tribes escaping from their Assyrian captors, crossing the Euphrates, and marching into the north to dwell in a land never before inhabited. He reconstructs the route they followed, giving distances and travel times, detailing little-known facts concerning the "comparatively pleasant" climate that would greet them and speaks of the grain and other vegetables they would raise. [Orson Pratt, "Where are the Ten Tribes of Israel?" Millennial Star 29:200-4.] George Reynolds, following Elder Pratt's lead, wrote of the feelings of awe these vagabonds of Israel must have experienced as they faced the icy waters of the Arctic Sea. [George Reynolds, "The Assyrian Captivity," Juvenile Instructor 18:26-29.]
At this point some observations ought be made about these theories: though rich in imagination, all are without scriptural support. With the possible exception of the North Pole theory, each claims what amounts to a private audience with Joseph Smith as its source. This same Joseph Smith once said: "I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private." [Joseph Fielding Smith, comp., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (SLC: Deseret Book Co., 1961), pg 370.] Further, each theory is in conflict with the others. Thus we must conclude that Joseph Smith (1) freely speculated on the matter, (2) was terribly confused on the issue, or (3) that such methods of tracing statements to him are not reliable for the establishment of the doctrines of the kingdom.
....
" We will actively define our faith here rather than just respond to accusations".
grig - please actively define this...there are no accusations on this thread...it's all yours
So far Gamecock, you are the only one on the list.
There is no doubt Mormonism is not only a bogus religion but tries to incorporate the truth with it falsity.
Where are the, "looking glasses?" Where are the, "gold tablets?" Where are the, "prophesies fulfilled?" However, I bet you can find a peep stone or two!
Well, i’ve sent in my 50 cents and 4 box tops, so I’m hoping to get my special glasses that will enable me to interpret a language I know nothing about. Lets see , was the right lens the Urimm or the thrummim? I don’t know...Darn forgot my special undies ....be right back....
If this overload of mormon spam continues on FR, they can do without my monthly subscription.
National Lampoon once did a piece called “Religious Sacrilege of the Year Award”. There was plenty to offend everyone, of course, but the winner was,
“Make Instant Coffee out of Freeze-Dried Mormons”
(from a Catholic survivor of repeated mishie home invasions)
;^)
Ping
The amount of idiotic cultist Mormon spam on here is the most embarassing low FR has reached, at least Michael Rivero, Jack Thompson, Larry klayman and Justin Raimondo you knew upfront they were loons without a following. These “Mormon philosophers” take themselves seriously, and they’ve brainwashed a bunch of rubes into the cult.
FR won’t last if it turns into Mormon central anymore than it would last if it turned into Scientology central.
Careful...here is how a mormon handles opposition when they don't have a hose handy:
What if they're....
I say, everyone wants to know where the Holy Land is.
Well, I’ll tell you where the Holy Land is,
IT’S IN SLATERS RAVINE and they are fixing to make a highway out of it!!!
Thank you Bro. Dave G.
“(OHEOQITI) Ping List”
Sounds like fun, please add me.
(FSMW)
“If this overload of mormon spam continues on FR, they can do without my monthly subscription.”
The only way to cure it is to let the fever crest and then break. In that light, counterintuitively, I believe we need to encourage as much Mormon spam as possible, especially the “Ecumenical Affirmative Action Spam”, which is the epitome of UnFreeRepublic.
Of course, to anyone informed of Mormon history, this parallels what happened at Zion and Kirtland and Far West and Nauvoo and Utah - it is built into the whole system. First there is the “we are friendly neighbors” stage, then the “we are better than you” stage, followed by the “we are always the victim stage” followed by the militant “hosing down the pigs” stage which eventually devolves into the “vendetta” stage.
I hate to tell everyone, but we are in the militant “hosing down the pigs” stage now. Because of the vestiges of the “Blood Atonement” policies of Brigham Young, what will happen now is that there will be a continuation of the vast number of Mormon Spam threads meant to shove it down the throats of the Gentiles and Apostates. I guarantee enforcers from the Temples have seen what goes on and will report to the beehive.
Of course, don’t believe me, and especially don’t bother to read the histories of Far West and the Nauvoo Expositor and Illinois Governor Ford, et. al. Obviously Santana’s ditty about those who ignore history being forced to endure a repeat of its excess should be disregarded.
I have no idea if you frequent the religion threads but if you seem to be seeing way to much of this stuff, the new format could be the reason.
Bingo....
Could you clarify what that means? I plead ignorance.
Do you have a link for the hose the pigs thread? I cannot find it.
Early Beliefs About the Location of the Lost Ten Tribes
ANOTHER PLANET
President Young said he had heard Joseph say that the Ten Tribes of Israel were on a portion of land seperated from this Earth.
Source: Wilford Woodruff Journal, September 8th, 1867. (He was the 5th prophet of the Mormon Church).
President Young is quoted as saying that the Ten Tribes of Israel are on a portion of the Earth - a portion seperated from the main land.
Source: Cowley, Matthias F., Wilford Woodruff - History of His life and Labours, 1909.
The Prophet Joseph once in my hearing advanced his opinion that the Ten Tribes were seperated from the Earth; or a portion of the Earth was by miracle broken off, and that in the latter-days it would be restored to Earth or be let down in the polar regions. Whether the Prophet founded his opinion upon revelation or whether it was a matter of mere speculation with him, I am unable to say. [Elder Pratt however seemed to of been of the opinion that they resided on or in the North Pole.]
Source: Orson Pratt to John C. Hall, December 13th, 1875. (Orson Pratt was a early member).
The stars which will fall to the Earth, are fragments, which have been broken off from the Earth from time to time, in the mighty convulsions of nature....some with the Ten Tribes...These must all be restored again at the 'times of the restitution of all things.' [This will restore the Ten Tribes of Israel;...]
Source: Parley P. Pratt, Millenial Star 1:258. (Parley P. Pratt was a early member and ran the Mormon newspaper Millenial Star).
At night paid Sister Eliza R. Snow a short visit and had some conversation with her on the dividing of the Earth. She told me that she heard the Prophet say that when the Ten Tribes were taken away the Lord cut the Earth in two, Joseph striking his left hand in the centre with the edge of his right to illustrate the idea, and that they were on an orb or planet by themselves, and when they return with the portion of this Earth that was taken away with them, the coming together of these two bodies or orbs would cause a shock and make the 'Earth reel to and fro like a drunken man.' She also stated that he said the Earth was now ninety times [percent?] smaller now than when first created or organized.(Yes, the famous poet Eliza R. Snow was one of Joseph Smith's wives).
Source: Diary of Charles L. Walker, March 10th, 1881. (Another early member).
September 28, 1931, the late Lorin C. Woolley related in the writers presence, of having asked Eliza R. Snow and John Van Cott to relate the Prophet's statement relative to the location of the 'Ten Tribes', and which was made by the Prophet at a meeting of a few Saints in Nauvoo. Joseph stated, according to these two parties, that the 'Ten Lost Tribes' were on a planet seperated from this Earth by water and air.
Source: Musser, Joseph W., Truth 7:182.
A portion of the North country containing the Ten Tribes may be seperated from the Earth.
Source: Wilford Woodruff Journal, September 25th, 1859.
NORTH POLE and JOHN THE REVELATOR
I have heard Joseph say that 'John was among the Ten Tribes beyond the North Pole.'
Source: Oliver B. Huntington Journal, January 13th, 1881. (Early member).
The Spirit of the Lord fell upon Joseph in an unusual manner, and [he] prophesied that John the Revelator was then among the Ten Tribes of Israel who had been led away by Shalmaneser, King of Assyria to prepare them for their return from their long dispersion, to again possess the land of their fathers.
Source: History of the Church, John Whitmer, see DHC 1:176. (John Whitmer was one of the eight witnesses who testified seeing the gold plates used to write the Book of Mormon).
While 'the camp of Zion' was on the way to Missouri in 1834 Joseph was some ways ahead of the company one day, when there was seen walking with him by the roadside a man, a stranger. When the company came up there was no person with him. When at camp that night, Heber asked the Prophet who that man was; Joseph replied it was the beloved Disciple, John, who was then on his way to the Ten Tribes in the North.
Source: Heber C. Kimball letter to Addison Everett, Oliver B. Huntington Journal, 13th January, 1881.( Heber C. Kimball was a member of Brigham Young's top leadership).
Joseph said that John was to tarry until Christ came. He is now with the Ten Tribes preaching to them, and when we can get ready for them they will come.
Source: Life of Levi Ward Hancock, June 4th, 1831. (Early Member).
FC: I guarantee enforcers from the Temples have seen what goes on and will report to the beehive.
JR: Could you clarify what that means? I plead ignorance.
Despite protestations to the contrary, LDS is a very political and structurally tight nit group. Since FreeRepublic is a very important conservative forum, and Mormons are conservative and political, some of the posters here are important Mormons who will not wish to cede the political front. Therefore, some of what goes on here is reported to the Bishops and Stake Presidents and others in authority because it impedes efforts to proselytize.
If you remember the now departed tracer, he was the epitome of what I speak, having threatened to use his links to the Church to close Free Republic down. The current crop seems not quite so cut and paste now that Mitt has fallen, but certainly the “hose down the pigs” thread and the spam campaign are very reminisent of an organized campaign to disrupt a la tracer.
Look up blood atonement, and you will see the roots of what now goes on.
What we need is publicity.
Perhaps t-shirts?
Or even a band:
It does appear that you have named the steps of mormonism apologetics. The ‘hosing’ stage is even taken up by professing atheists who claim to have been Mormons at one time.
How about a Movie.
Yeah, that’s the ticket!
If you do not wish to see RF posts, do NOT use the "everything" option on the browse. Instead, browse by "News/Activism." When you log back in, the browse will reset to "everything" - so be sure to set it back to "News/Activism."
It is the religious thread creators who are imposing their specious religious arguments upon this otherwise thoroughly established political forum community which has avoided these pedantic Mormon flamewar spam for most of the last decade.
When Jim Robinson is feeling better I'm confident John will address this pressing software issue. There have been many complaints.
Be patient.
where do you stand on this ?
It's like those "offers" you get in your email...in order for your bank account NOT to be charged, you must "opt out". Marketing at its finest.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.