JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING

EWTN ^ | 4/1/1996 | James Akin

[Marysecretary]

I’m sure it happens but it’s not the usual thing. Many leave because their needs aren’t being met, or they got ticked off at someone, or or or. People have got needs but we need to go to church to worship God. When we begin to reach out to others, our needs WILL be met. Church people are amongst the most difficult folks out there...LOL.

[annalex]

we need to go to church to worship God

I very much agree, but asking you as a Protestant, why do you think we do?

[quadrant]

I don't believe that church people are among the most difficult, its that the end of their work - salvation of individuals - cannot be measured in this life. Consequently, church people fall back on the signs of salvation: larger budgets, buildings, more numerous congregations, etc as the sign of success. And in Protestant churches disputes tend to be amplified as no one central authority exists to settle disputes.

[Iscool]

I don't see a separation of salvation and justification in 1 Cor 3:11-15. St. Paul sees the life of an elect as a process of building upon the foundation of Christ toward greater righteousness, which then culminates in salvation.

Do you have any scripture that shows that justification grows???

Justification, Santification, Righteousness and Salvation are not the same...They are all different...

[Marysecretary]

Each church has its own authority and most are under a hierarchy of some kind, such as Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. Since one of our pastors has been my husband’s best friends since childhood, I KNOW what pastors go through with people. It’s no fun. In our church, getting people saved is a sign of success.

[Marysecretary]

I’m not sure what you mean. Do you mean why I think Catholics go to church? I would certainly hope it would be to worship God.

[quadrant]

Getting people saved is the sign of success, but far too many church focus on other measures. I remember one church to which I belonged kept detailed records of the number of Bibles brought to Sunday service.
Most Protestant churches operate under supervision of some sort from a denominational body, but to label that supervision as a hierarchy is - with the exception, possibly, of the Episcopal church - something of a stretch.

[annalex]

scripture that shows that justification grows???

The section III. Growing in Righteousness: Progressive Justification begins with several scripture references:

In chapter 10 of the Decree On Justification, Trent teaches that the just man is "renewed day by day" (2Cor. 4:16) and that by "mortifying the members" of the flesh (Col. 3:5) and presenting them as "instruments of justice unto sanctification" (Rom. 6:13, 19) we can "though the observance of the commands of God . . . faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and be further justified . . . "

Here they are (Douay translation)

the inward man is renewed day by day (2 Corinthians 4:16)

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols. (Colossians 3:5)

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of iniquity unto sin; but present yourselves to God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of justice unto God. (Romans 6:13)

I speak an human thing, because of the infirmity of your flesh. For as you have yielded your members to serve uncleanness and iniquity, unto iniquity; so now yield your members to serve justice, unto sanctification. (Romans 6:19)

In addition, Akin offers

Let no temptation take hold on you, but such as is human. And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue [i.e. escape], that you may be able to bear it. (1 Corinthinas 10:13)

My favorite passage on sanctification is

2 Grace to you and peace be accomplished in the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord: 3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. 5 And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6 And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7 And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8 For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

(2 Peter 1)

[annalex]

to worship God

Certainly: this is what the Sacrifice of the Mass is. But I was hoping for an answer from a Protestant non-liturgical perspective: it seems that to listen to a pastor talk about the scripture could be done anywhere, especially with modern technology.

[Marysecretary]

I guess I’m not really understanding what you are saying, annalex. We go to worship God, for fellowship with other believers, to minister to those who need comfort, peace, prayer, etc. To go up to the altar for prayer or ministry. I’m not sure what you mean, FRiend.

[Marysecretary]

Methodist Churches have a hierarchy of sorts. There are all sorts of officials and offices there. I’m sure most Protestant churches have some kind of umbrella they’re under from a higher authority. Most aren’t independent, unless it’s Baptist. Then there are non denominational churches but even they are usually under some kind of umbrella.

[annalex]

OK, I got your answer: to minister to needs is worship, correct?

[Marysecretary]

No, that’s not what I’m saying. I don’t quite understand what YOU are trying to say here and I don’t know how to respond to you.

[quadrant]

I agree a hierarchy of sorts exists in the UMC but it is not as rigid as that of the RC Catholic Church. Many nondenominational Protestant churches are governed only by the Board of Deacons or some other similar group.

[annalex]

Sorry if it is not clear. See, Catholics go to Church for one reason, to receive the Eucharist in the context of the Mass. The Mass is considered an act of worship because there is a sacrifice going on in it. This doesn’t mean that we don’t value the other elements of the Mass, such as the scripture readings, the hymns, and the homily (sermon), but these we can get without going to Church, for example, online.

So, it occurred to me to ask if there is any part of the Protestant service that is similarly needful and cannot be replaced by individual scripture reading, prayer and social events.

[Iscool]

So, it occurred to me to ask if there is any part of the Protestant service that is similarly needful and cannot be replaced by individual scripture reading, prayer and social events.

Praying to God is worship...Remember, when we pray we don't recite from memory a repetitious prayer written down in a book somewhere...We have a one on one converstaion with God...

We praise him for His Holiness...We sing songs to Praise Him...that's worship...

We thank Him for giving us Salvation...We honor Him by coming together to focus on Him...We lead people to Him thru His word...That's all worship...

We remember the Cross and acknowledge that it was because of His death, that He gave His life that we could live...

These are the spiritual sacrifices we are told to sacrifice with...

Everytime I thank God for my Salvation which is every day, it's worship...Every time I witness to someone to accept Jesus as their Savior, it is worship...

And I'm sure other non Catholics can add to the list...

[OLD REGGIE]

I know that Catholics leave the RC Church all the time, but not as frequently as Protestants, who will leave a church if they don't like the music. A minister friend of mine told me that leading a Protestant church was like herding cats.

When those Protestants who leave a church because they "don't like the music" do they remain Protestant? When those Catholics who "Parish shop" because they don't like (or understand) the Priest or services available do they remain Catholic?

I believe you are correct in that more Protestants will leave a particular church to attend another just down the street which is more to their liking.

The fact that "local" (within 5 miles") Protestant churches outnumber Catholic churches about 15-1 doesn't have anything to do about it does it?

[OLD REGGIE]

Yes, they do. The mother of a friend left her Methodist church when a new director of music arrived and introduced contemporary hymns. Did other reasons exist for leaving? Perhaps but without the ability to see into the heart, the question remains unanswered.

Perhaps then you are not qualified to make a dogmatic statement based on your singular personal experience.

[OLD REGGIE]

Sorry if it is not clear. See, Catholics go to Church for one reason, to receive the Eucharist in the context of the Mass. The Mass is considered an act of worship because there is a sacrifice going on in it. This doesn’t mean that we don’t value the other elements of the Mass, such as the scripture readings, the hymns, and the homily (sermon), but these we can get without going to Church, for example, online.

Perhaps I am not qualified to discuss the different reasons for attending either the Catholic or Protestant churches because I no longer attend either. On the other hand perhaps I am uniquely qualified. :)

1. Catholic Church: We were used to a purely mechanical process and boredom because we didn't understand the language. Also, we were rushed through the service because the parking lot had to be cleared for the next Mass. (At least we were in and out in 45 minutes).

2. Protestant Church. The Word was the service with congregational singing a close second. Our Minister was either dynamic or boring (to some). Also while the service was set at 1 hour, it seldom if ever got over early and frequently ran on considerably longer. We would then (in many churches) meet in a fellowship hall for coffee and refreshments. IOW, several hours would be blocked out for Church services.

These were my personal experiences and I make no claim that it is universal simply because I "know a woman who........".

[annalex]

Praying to God is worship

Nothing against prayer, spontaneous or in a fixed form, but I'd say sacrifice is primary expression of worship. My point was that one can pray anywhere - why go to church?