posted on 05/23/2008 8:39:54 AM PDT
To: Antoninus; ArrogantBustard; celticfreedom; CTK YKC; dan1123; DogwoodSouth; FourtySeven; HarleyD; ...
posted on 05/23/2008 8:41:40 AM PDT
This old thread might be useful: Merit
posted on 05/23/2008 9:03:01 AM PDT
posted on 05/23/2008 9:10:57 AM PDT
This should be correctly titled “Justification in ROMAN Catholic Teaching” as the Catholic Church (Eastern and other Orthodox, and various Protestant groups) as a whole does not subscribe to this.
Calling Rome alone the “universal” Church is only their opinion.
posted on 05/23/2008 9:18:00 AM PDT
("They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind..." (Hosea 8:7))
First, moral realism demands it. Protestants are firm believers in moral realism. Our actions are either right or wrong, good or bad, and they are that way objectively,
Objectively? What is "objectively" with respect to God? Does this mean the author spun a theological yarn that includes a god who is subject to a greater moral universe who isn't the final authority in and of himself?
If our moral lacking is something external to God, then God is not the ultimate creator, and cannot be considered the ultimate judge. If moral rules are above God, then that god didn't create them so there has to be a higher god who decided right from wrong. If that god is subject to moral rules, then he is also subject to judgment under them, so there must be a higher judge. Pulling out the word "objective" with respect to God is meaningless if we truly believe in an ultimate creator-God.
posted on 05/23/2008 11:00:56 AM PDT
(If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
I couldn't find this in the text. What is the Catholic interpretation of 1 Cor. 3:11-15:
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
The author (all Catholics?) argues that justification and sanctification are one and the same, but Paul here separates the foundation of Christ which leads to salvation and our works built on the foundation which leads to heavenly reward. I was hoping this passage would be addressed, but it doesn't seem to be in the article. Did I miss it?
posted on 05/23/2008 12:44:06 PM PDT
(If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
To: drstevej; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; jboot; AZhardliner; ...
posted on 05/23/2008 1:38:03 PM PDT
("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
posted on 05/23/2008 5:48:35 PM PDT
(With God all things are possible.)
But the two sides disagree about what the phrase "the righteousness of Christ" means.
I'm sorry. While this author does an excellent job in explaining the Protestant and Catholic views of justification; not surprisingly, he is erroneous in picking the correct theological doctrine. Our justification rest with Christ-not works that we do after we have been made into believers. First, moral realism demands it. ...Our actions are either right or wrong, good or bad, and they are that way objectively, regardless of how we feel about it. ...So moral realismto which Protestants are firmly committedrequires us to say that guilt and innocence, righteousness and unrighteousness, are exactly the kind of objectively real properties that Catholics say they are.
What the author fails to explain is that Protestants believe that redeemed man is now capable of making a choice-good or bad-in regards to sin. If redeemed man chooses to sin, our souls don't grow "dark". They cannot for we have the Holy Spirit of God residing in us. And, after all, isn't He the Light of the world? The souls of a true believer can't grow dark because we are the light of God. Another reason why Protestants need to accept the language of objective guilt and innocence is that the Bible itself uses this kind of language. It often speaks of guilt and innocence in terms of objective properties, such as colors or cleanliness. Scripture speaks of our sins being "crimson like scarlet" (Isaiah 1:18), and the Psalmist says "wash me with hyssop and I shall be whiter than snow." (Psalm 51:7).
Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light
Rather God will chasten us to bring us back into fellowship with Him. It would be prudent not to sin, but He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin.
The author mistake these verses as applying to "redeemed" man. This is not what these verses are talking about. Though our sin be "crimson like scarlet" has always been applied to the saved verses the unsaved. Please note Psalms 51....you will recall that Protestants often say that we receive Christ's own personal righteousness when we are justified. This is what they have in mind when they say that when we are justified God treats us just like Christthat God looks at us and sees Christ instead. Now this is a metaphor that not all Protestants accept. Even Keith Green, the noted anti-Catholic, God rest his soul, rejected it. He recognized that when God looks at us he does not see Christ.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part You shall make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which You have broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide Your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
Perhaps some Protestants do not believe our salvation is based upon the righteousness of Christ. It would not surprise me as Protestants, in most cases do not understand doctrine as well as they should. Regardless of what theological ideas bounce around in their heads, God has stated that He has imputed Christ righteousness to us.First, if God simply saw us as Christ, if he gave us Christ's own personal righteousness, then we would all be rewarded equally in heaven. We would all be as righteous as Christ and so we would all be rewarded equally.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for him alone that it was imputed to him,
Rom 4:24 but for us also to whom it is to be imputed, to the ones believing on Him who has raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 who was delivered because of our offenses and was raised for our justification.
I will go outside Protestant doctrine and simply state that rewards will be meaningless in heaven. God does not have to treat us all equal and that is not the way He created His universe. There are different levels of angels and you certainly don't hear any of them complaining about one angel getting something more than another. The least in heaven will be no worst than the greatest. Rewards will mean nothing and in the end we will all throw down our crowns at the feet of Christ for we will see that it is He that has accomplished all things.Finally, there are simply no verses in Scripture which state that we receive Christ's own personal level of righteousness. None!
Well, Romans 4:22-25 posted above not withstanding, I would also point to Philippians or Peter:
Php 3:9 and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but through the faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by faith,
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and our Savior Jesus Christ,
In both cases we are referred to the righteousness of God, not our righteousness.
Regrettably the author seems to not understand that our salvation does not rest upon our merits of things that we accomplish after we are saved. Our salvation and justification rests upon the merits of Christ and the things He has done for us. We are justified, and remain justified, simply because we are in Christ and rest upon His actions-not our own. Any good work that we do or accomplish is because of Him working through us-not by our righteousness. He is the vine-we are the branches. Mary understood this when she stated:
Luk 1:49 For the Mighty One has done great things for me; and holy is His name.
posted on 05/25/2008 1:59:26 PM PDT
To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg
You (the RCC) is confusing justification with sanctification.
Justification (salvation) is a one time event.(1Cor.1:18)
Sanctification has three parts, initial (in union with Christ), progressive (spiritual growth) and ultimate (receiving the Resurrection Body).
A Christian is justified by faith, without works,(stage 1) is to produce fruit (works) by the Holy Spirit,(stage 2) and is predestinated to eternal life. (stage 3).
posted on 05/25/2008 10:49:14 PM PDT
("Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people".-John Adams)
To: Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; irishtenor; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; Alex Murphy
The key document giving the Church's teaching on this subject is known as the Decree On Justification from the Council of Trent (1545-1564).
But that just can't be! Numerous Catholics here have said Trent is no longer in effect....
posted on 05/30/2008 4:43:05 AM PDT
(The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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