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Prerequisite for this article: SALVATION PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE

1 posted on 05/23/2008 8:39:54 AM PDT by annalex
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To: Antoninus; ArrogantBustard; celticfreedom; CTK YKC; dan1123; DogwoodSouth; FourtySeven; HarleyD; ...
If you want to be on the Catholic Theology for non-Catholics list but are not on it already, or if you are on it but do not want to be, let me know either publicly or privately.

This is an open thread. I invite all opinions and encourage clear posts on the topic.

On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church
The Great Heresies [Open]
SALVATION PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE

2 posted on 05/23/2008 8:41:40 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
This old thread might be useful: Merit
3 posted on 05/23/2008 9:03:01 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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ping for later


4 posted on 05/23/2008 9:10:57 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: annalex

This should be correctly titled “Justification in ROMAN Catholic Teaching” as the Catholic Church (Eastern and other Orthodox, and various Protestant groups) as a whole does not subscribe to this.

Calling Rome alone the “universal” Church is only their opinion.


5 posted on 05/23/2008 9:18:00 AM PDT by AnalogReigns ("They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind..." (Hosea 8:7))
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To: annalex
First, moral realism demands it. Protestants are firm believers in moral realism. Our actions are either right or wrong, good or bad, and they are that way objectively,

Objectively? What is "objectively" with respect to God? Does this mean the author spun a theological yarn that includes a god who is subject to a greater moral universe who isn't the final authority in and of himself?

If our moral lacking is something external to God, then God is not the ultimate creator, and cannot be considered the ultimate judge. If moral rules are above God, then that god didn't create them so there has to be a higher god who decided right from wrong. If that god is subject to moral rules, then he is also subject to judgment under them, so there must be a higher judge. Pulling out the word "objective" with respect to God is meaningless if we truly believe in an ultimate creator-God.

7 posted on 05/23/2008 11:00:56 AM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: annalex
I couldn't find this in the text. What is the Catholic interpretation of 1 Cor. 3:11-15:
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

The author (all Catholics?) argues that justification and sanctification are one and the same, but Paul here separates the foundation of Christ which leads to salvation and our works built on the foundation which leads to heavenly reward. I was hoping this passage would be addressed, but it doesn't seem to be in the article. Did I miss it?

24 posted on 05/23/2008 12:44:06 PM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: drstevej; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?keyword=justification&entiresite=true

5 solas!


28 posted on 05/23/2008 1:38:03 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: annalex
I just found this saved link!

The Early Church Fathers on Justification - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

37 posted on 05/23/2008 5:48:35 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: annalex
But the two sides disagree about what the phrase "the righteousness of Christ" means.

First, moral realism demands it. ...Our actions are either right or wrong, good or bad, and they are that way objectively, regardless of how we feel about it. ...So moral realism—to which Protestants are firmly committed—requires us to say that guilt and innocence, righteousness and unrighteousness, are exactly the kind of objectively real properties that Catholics say they are.

Another reason why Protestants need to accept the language of objective guilt and innocence is that the Bible itself uses this kind of language. It often speaks of guilt and innocence in terms of objective properties, such as colors or cleanliness. Scripture speaks of our sins being "crimson like scarlet" (Isaiah 1:18), and the Psalmist says "wash me with hyssop and I shall be whiter than snow." (Psalm 51:7).

...you will recall that Protestants often say that we receive Christ's own personal righteousness when we are justified. This is what they have in mind when they say that when we are justified God treats us just like Christ—that God looks at us and sees Christ instead. Now this is a metaphor that not all Protestants accept. Even Keith Green, the noted anti-Catholic, God rest his soul, rejected it. He recognized that when God looks at us he does not see Christ.

First, if God simply saw us as Christ, if he gave us Christ's own personal righteousness, then we would all be rewarded equally in heaven. We would all be as righteous as Christ and so we would all be rewarded equally.

Finally, there are simply no verses in Scripture which state that we receive Christ's own personal level of righteousness. None!


64 posted on 05/25/2008 1:59:26 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg
You (the RCC) is confusing justification with sanctification.

Justification (salvation) is a one time event.(1Cor.1:18)

Sanctification has three parts, initial (in union with Christ), progressive (spiritual growth) and ultimate (receiving the Resurrection Body).

A Christian is justified by faith, without works,(stage 1) is to produce fruit (works) by the Holy Spirit,(stage 2) and is predestinated to eternal life. (stage 3).

71 posted on 05/25/2008 10:49:14 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration ("Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people".-John Adams)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; irishtenor; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; Alex Murphy
The key document giving the Church's teaching on this subject is known as the Decree On Justification from the Council of Trent (1545-1564).

But that just can't be! Numerous Catholics here have said Trent is no longer in effect....

106 posted on 05/30/2008 4:43:05 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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