Posted on 06/02/2008 10:30:31 AM PDT by Quix
Lack of secure ATTACHMENT the first 6 years of life—especially, imho, to a healthy loving DADDY, results in almost or truly terminal insecurities.
Said insecurities trigger a lifelong [until arrested and overcome, flushed]—trigger a lifelong pattern, habit, obsession of BEING IN CONTROL of every detail of one’s life and especially one’s relationships [which, of course, causes no end of problems and never results in the security longed for—satan wins again].
And, most often, such obsessive compulsions and needs for CONTROL find a nurturing home in INSTITUTIONALIZED structure,
. . . And it is all the more delusionally self-righteously pseudo-comforting when it’s RELIGIOUS order, rules, law, ritual, form . . . This control issue is such a fascinating thing from the REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDERED origins of it to all its manifestations in individuals and in in-group/out-group dynamics and hideousness. I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that all of us need periodic bouts of being out of any effective control in areas that matter most to us. Helps humility as well as perspective. Helps remind us Who IS TRULY in control. When I was working in the Navy human relations project CREDO, our workshop Thurs evening through Sunday was designed to give the staff incredible degrees of control. Yet, it was very paradoxical. Even though the underlying structuring, strategies, stage setting were in many respects very controlling, we were most effective in that the small group process in an outrageously large group typically turned most effective to the degree we gave up control. Folks couldn't get violent. They essentially couldn't leave the group nor walk off the property--though rare such did happen. And, they were forcefully encouraged to speak for themselves using "I" statements vs "you" statements . . . and to actively listen to what everyone else said. That was about it in terms of active control. Beyond that we staff pushed folks buttons right and left and relentlessly to get them to face their issues; to face themselves in redemptive ways about critical issues, themes, habits, attitudes. And all 14 workshops I was on worked very successfully, very powerfully. I was virtually always paired with ORF. I think he was a Methodist Navy Chaplain psychologist. He was seen as kind of a very kknowledgeable and sensitive lump. Probably the good cop. Guess who was the other cop! LOL. Repeatedly and amazingly . . . getting in the middle of folks' faces and hearts can be a powerful trigger for growth. It still works very potently in every class I teach. Of course, one has to refine things in different settings. LOL. Thankfully, a lot of caring is communicated when one risks rejection enough to get smack dab in the middle of where folks' fears, insecurities, narrow, brittle, rigid biases flow and propagate. We all get in ruts. Some thread on FR recently cited Thomas Jefferson? as asserting that we needed a revolution about every 20 years. I think individuals need one a bit more often. We get in ruts. The rut becomes a deep trench. We eventually see little but the fantasized goal off in the distance in a very long, very deep rut. And we imagine that we are traveling lofty heights or even soaring over all the ruts of all the other ‘simpletons’ when, actually, we are mired in the sucking muddy muck of a grave with both ends knocked out. One of the things my professors taught me early . . . and that Milton Erickson of Phoenix was a master of . . . is that turmoil, even very chaotic, painful turmoil can birth the greatest new life and new orderly arrangements of a person's psyche and relationships. I think that's one of the reasons God often puts us in fiery furnaces. He wants to get us so stirred up . . . sometimes so mixed up in terms of knowing what is left, right, up, down, front, back . . . that it becomes impossible to settle into the old ruts when the fiery furnace is over. Thereafter some things are unalterably and unavoidably new in spite of ourselves and our former addiction to the former rut(s). The Chaplain founding CREDO knew such human tendencies, institutional tendencies. He and the other chaplains leading the program often tried to insure that we 10 member staff were regularly stirred up! LOL. Actually, most staff meetings quickly turned into small group process. Guess who tended to volunteer for/get thrown on the hot seat 85-95% of the time! LOL. Guess who were happy to have me take their place on the hot seat! Yup, all the other wimps. I grew a lot from it, however. Some folks think I’m a basket case now—they should have seen me then! My brand of Pentecostalism was the only valid reality in the universe and my job was to hammer everyone else into that mold regardless. That didn’t work well nor last long but it took a lot of process for me to eventually discover that consciously and growthfully—and to accept; to own a different way of living Each of us has a philosophy of life which includes critical spiritual components—even atheists. We think our particular brand is the best or we’d choose another—if there’s any sanity to our constructions on reality at all. Some of us have a more or less settled philosophical structure based on evidence for faith in logical yet faith infected ways or else we live in turmoil and confusion. We arrived at such a construction on reality, most likely, by our heritage or via some traumatic event in our life where God broke through somewhat askew to or in contradiction to our heritage. Regardless, we must evaluate—at least wise folks routinely evaluate where their car is headed—straight down the road or headed for the bar ditch. Sooner or later, the wiser folks check out the car to insure that it’s sound mechanically. Or in another perspective, we check out the foundation to insure that it’s solid, viable, reasonable. Sadly, not all folks do much thorough, broad-minded checking of their philosophical foundations. Or they don’t check their internal, mental, spiritual, philosophical structures very often, very deeply, very broadly. Yes, hopefully, as we get older we get wiser and learn more and more things that are dependably God centered and solidly so—and therefore need less to no checking. However, the wisest still check their evolving assumptions routinely. Prottys ostensibly base their existence and focus on God’s Word and God Alone—including Holy Spirit’s still small voice of guidance and instruction leading them into all truth. GOD ALONE, as the song goes. In my experience, the folks I’ve known walking closest to God certainly do. Alas, the human critter is perversely talented at making, building an idol out of anything—even Scripture in ink on wood pulp. Though, mercifully, in my experience, that’s typically a rather rare phenomenon in terms of raw numbers and in terms of overtly idolatrous thoughts, attitudes and behaviors. My senior High School PhD level teacher who had us read more than 12 books like BRAVE NEW WORLD, ANIMAL FARM, MACHIAVELLI, COMMUNIST MANIFESTO, THE CONSTITUTION OF THE USA, THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, JOHN LOCKE, PLATO, 1984, ETC. . . . said as she assigned our end of the year term paper to answer: It often grieves me that so many RC’s seem to have never scrutinized their authentic origins much at all. The party line is swallowed hook, line and sinker and rigid denial sets in wholesale and deeply entrenched—never to be altered except to get thicker, more blind, more narrow, more unfounded on God and God’s Word etc. And so many seem to have little to no perspective at all in their lives from which to be able to detect at all—that they’ve done that; that they routinely live that way and always have. Some Pentecostals are the same way. And Baptists. And Lutherans. However, in my experience a much smaller proportion of Prottys seem to fall prey to such habits so deeply entrenched and so filled with blind rigid denial. That’s very sad to me. I’m certain it grieves our Heavenly Father wholesale when any of us of any Christian variety give in to satan’s pressures to live in such a box, such a rut.
And I seriously pity the person who’s never been stripped to the bone marrow sufficiently ‘Holy Spirit/refiner’s fire ruthlessly’ to know because they know because they know because they know, THAT. And, I believe that, generally speaking, when one concludes thinking of such a list, or reading such and there springs up within one’s being this protest . . . this . . . BUT, BUT, BUT, what about ______________ That (he, she, it)’s also a ________________ THEN we are dealing with some level of idolatry—regardless of the label on the Christian club sign. The mud pits of Egypt are not our HOME. The best education, heritage, magisterical of Egypt are not our security. The best parenting is not our most reliable destiny. That is—as great and essential a good foundation as the best parenting is—there comes a time when we must face GOD ALONE. Leaning on even the best Mommy and Daddy just isn’t sufficient any longer. Almighty DADDY has a lien on our existence. And when He comes to collect, He requires our ALL. Thankfully, HE GIVES US HIS ALL in return.
. . . she insisted that we had to support our answers—that it was no longer sufficient to say—“Because mom and dad believe that/told me.” We had to have our own well founded foundation for who we were, what we believed and where we were going. It was a priceless class.
Folks, start your fingers!
Brazen personal interest ping.
Thanks for the ping.
I’ll try to read this as my work schedule permits.
Looks good.
= = =
Salute to you, 1000 silverlings.
This is another “Quix is back” ping.
Just FYI and with my FReegards!
Great to see you back!
Actually, my deranged cyber friend, God gives us His all BEFORE He requires it of us. No installment plan under God - He first paid it all so we could live and repay as He supplies.
cart - meet horse.
Press on, my dear brother.
Start of a busy week, but keep me pinged. I’m too old to change, lol
Boy does that explain a lot.
BTW, I wouldn't be caught dead in a group such as you describe. What was its purpose?
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND:
Open threads are a town square – posters may argue for or against beliefs of any kind.
They may tear down other's beliefs. They may ridicule, similar to the Smoky Backroom with the exception that a poster must never “make it personal.” Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.
I am not the protector of your beliefs. I am not the arbiter of truth, for that posters must turn to God or whoever they consider to be the final authority.
I am not the arbiter of logical proofs, for that the posters must turn to the mathematicians, logicians and philosophers.
I am not the arbiter of fact, for that the posters must turn to the scientists, physical evidence, testimonies and historians.
I am not the arbiter of the meaning of words, and I'm not sure there exists such a final authority so the burden rests with the posters to explain what they mean.
But when it comes to this Religion Forum, I lay out the guidelines and resolve disputes within those guidelines. But I do not "settle" matters of dogma, doctrine, tradition or meanings of words.
Thanks tons for your kind words.
And particularly for your prayers. Let us all remember to keep JimRob lifted up in prayer.
That his health be top flight through Christ’s Healing Love and Spirit;
That he be provisioned in all respects abundantly
That he and FR be protected in all respects from all hindrances and assaults of the enemy.
That he prosper and be in health as his soul prospers and draws ever closer to his Heavenly Father in love and devotion.
I’d also like to pray for some who care most about our Lord, Republic and Constitution would come forward with megabucks for an FR endowment to relieve the stress of FREEPATHONS as well as to buffer unforeseen challenges ahead.
But prayer alone is the most powerful priority for JimRob and FR and all of us . . . and our mutual caring unity on the priority goals that FR is about can move God’s hand most potently.
imho
Yes, God is the first overwhelming highest order GIVER.
You are right. I neglected to change that.
Yet, He does always respond beyond the call of duty, imho.
Thanks for your kind words and prayers.
Thanks tons for your kind loving prayers and help in all this.
God’s best to you in your work and family.
Certainly such groups have been used destructively for various reasons and in various ways.
Thankfully, our groups were well structured and well ran.
When a Command had even 15% of their people go to such a workshop, there were
1. less sick days out
2. higher re-up rates
3. lower AWOL’s
4. lower alcoholism and other drug abuse.
and IIRC, less divorces.
The time was when Nixon was throwing money at the drug abuse problem in the military. We turned out to be quite helpful on that score.
lower enlisted and lower officer ranks learned to hear upper ranks AND VICE VERSA.
Leaders had a much higher level of empathy.
Marine spouse abuse decreased markedly to mostly nothing for those attending.
IIRC, there were actually some lives saved in terms of suicide as well as homicide.
And . . . out of 14 workshops . . . about 50 participants . . . every last participant went away markedly and lastingly changed for the better—many quite dramatically so. The research was clear about that.
And, there were some who accepted Christ in off, informal free time periods and others who deepened their relationship with Christ.
I have absolutely no apologies or regrets about such benefits of such a group and set of group dynamics.
MANY TORTURED, TORN, BATTERED HEARTS, MINDS AND SOULS went down the mountain back to San Diego healed or much more healed.
BTW, we held it at the YMCA ranch house in Julian.
As of 6 years ago, CREDO was still in the same building on the wharf across from the Star of India—at least where the Star used to be.
Yeah, folks can avoid all kinds of risks . . .
and avoid growing in the process.
For whom or to correct what problems was the workshop being given?
There is still no way I would be in a group therapy session of any sort, especially work-related. I’m sure it must work or be of benefit for some, and I don’t deny or discount that. But to be in a group setting, where someone is pushing my buttons, and I know they’re pushing my buttons? Where they’re looking for me to make some change based on that pushing of buttons? No way.
Participants were service members of the
Navy
Coast Guard
Marines
and spouses of such .
who were NOT
part of the same family, same unit etc.
Occasionally people knew one another but none were currently working in the same command structure.
Some were somewhat coerced to go because of a DUI or family problem or authority problem or some such.
But most were encouraged as a growth experience that might help their personal if not professional growth.
There was a variety of types of experiences but by Friday evening, it was essentially all large group processing in the large ranch house.
Most of the time, staff avoided initiating dialogue. Especially the first half-3/4ths. We’d just truly facilitate processing of things that participants raised.
But we sure set up the participants to throw meaty stuff out from their inner psychodynamic and relational junk.
For example, the first evening after their sack lunch supper, we sat them down in the large living room and instructed them to get comfortable. Then we slapped on a long tape of 45 min or more of a collection of music that was super depressing. The native Americans and small pox son; Buffy St Marie stuff etc. Lots of depressing counter culture music. ONLY depressing songs.
Then we instructed them that they had to get ready and go to bed WITHOUT TALKING AT ALL. And staff monitored that until all were well asleep.
NEXT: The first morning after breakfast which was after the Navy Chief delighted in waking everyone up with our excellent sound system playing AMAZING GRACE at loud volume at about 5:30 or some such in the morning . . . .
WE’D gather all in the large living room and have them get comfortable—staff interspersed throughout—And we’d slap about an hour and a half or so of carefully selected ANGER music. After which, the one hard rule for the staff for the whole workshop was that after that tape,
NO STAFF PERSON could be the first person to say anything. The tape ended. SILENCE. Once we sat there for 20 minutes before anyone said anything.
Sooner or later the younger enlisted would start saying RIGHT ON! and spewing all sorts of junk and the Senior enlisted and Senior officers in the group would start saying things like WHAT IS THIS—A COMMUNIST PLOT?
It was all civilian clothes first name only basis.
Then we were off and running. The staff would stop the processing a good bit short of it peaking and send them having numbered off for another person to get to know; then having one member of the dyad go and recruit someone else for a threesome . . . then we manipulated those small groups into joining per our prescription as per our observations of the individuals for a mix of useful people to help one another grow. We insisted on significant diversity in those groups.
There was a solitary walk somewhere that afternoon or Sat afternoon, I forget. They couldn’t talk to anyone else or be around anyone else—but God. We gave them no particular prescription for their solitary walk except maybe on occasion—thinking about what they’d been going through and what else they might like out of our time together. But I don’t recall that we mad it a point to give them much instruction at all about their walk.
Actually, Sandy, I suspect you’d have gotten a lot out of it.
On every one of my 14 workshops, folks who were polar opposites on the bus up came down fast friends and much more able to hear folks in their families and commands that before they’d only been able to flare up against.
I loved it. I love seeing folks learn and grow—especially about themselves.
I’ve always wanted to structure some men’s retreats similarly. But never ben able to. So, I’ve made do with
Cursillo/Tres Dias/Walk to Emmaus
Which our workshop was somewhat patterned after.
Staff didn’t define change per se for individuals. We elicited goals from the individuals and helped them make movement toward the goals they stated as important to them.
Now, of course, we were aware of key issues for folks and could readily set them up to choose a growthful goal. But we didn’t coerce anyone into our goals for them vs their own. We took cues from each individual from the beginning as to what would be growthful for them.
Most of it was increasing capacities to have empathy; to communicate; to feel contructively and communicate feelings constructively . . . to communicate wants and desires constructively . . . to avoid blame . . . to take responsibility for one’s choices, feelings and actions etc. Pretty basic stuff.
The pushing buttons aspect may be misleading to you. Stuff was bubbling up and out all over the place . . . sometimes even on the bus up—people don’t stop being who they are and acting as they routinely act just because they agree to go on a work related workshop.
OH, confidentiality was stressed in terms of info staying on the mountain, so to speak. I don’t recall any problems with that the two years I was part of the program. We were not snoops for commands.
In terms of benefit—I can’t think of a single person out of 14 workshops who didn’t feel they’d benefitted and their families benefitted greatly from the experience. That would be 0 out of approx 700 people. I’m not the least bit sad about being a significant part of helping 700 people AND THEIR FAMILIES—say maybe 1,400-1,800 people have better, more loving, more fulfilling, more enriched, more Godly lives and families and work relationships.
BTW, Sandy . . .
any tidy little box anyone tries to shove me into
never fits.
But I'm not talking about you. Why do you get that out of it? I'm talking about the group therapy. I'd like to discuss that more, but I don't plan on discussing you. Now that's out of the way, I'll BRB.
For example, the first evening after their sack lunch supper, we sat them down in the large living room and instructed them to get comfortable. Then we slapped on a long tape of 45 min or more of a collection of music that was super depressing. The native Americans and small pox son; Buffy St Marie stuff etc. Lots of depressing counter culture music. ONLY depressing songs.
Then we instructed them that they had to get ready and go to bed WITHOUT TALKING AT ALL. And staff monitored that until all were well asleep.
NEXT: The first morning after breakfast which was after the Navy Chief delighted in waking everyone up with our excellent sound system playing AMAZING GRACE at loud volume at about 5:30 or some such in the morning . . . .
WE’D gather all in the large living room and have them get comfortable—staff interspersed throughout—And we’d slap about an hour and a half or so of carefully selected ANGER music. After which, the one hard rule for the staff for the whole workshop was that after that tape,
NO STAFF PERSON could be the first person to say anything. The tape ended. SILENCE. Once we sat there for 20 minutes before anyone said anything.
Sooner or later the younger enlisted would start saying RIGHT ON! and spewing all sorts of junk and the Senior enlisted and Senior officers in the group would start saying things like WHAT IS THIS—A COMMUNIST PLOT?
It was all civilian clothes first name only basis.
Then we were off and running. The staff would stop the processing a good bit short of it peaking and send them having numbered off for another person to get to know; then having one member of the dyad go and recruit someone else for a threesome . . . then we manipulated those small groups into joining per our prescription as per our observations of the individuals for a mix of useful people to help one another grow. We insisted on significant diversity in those groups.
Actually, Sandy, I suspect you’d have gotten a lot out of it.
Actually, Quix, I would have been one of the few who would have walked out.
No problem that was just one of those niggling tidbits that the back of my mind wanted to toss out at the next opportunity.
Then you’d have been military AWOL and likely have been written up for it.
I think there was only one fellow who attempted to leave the mountain once. He came back and really got something out of it.
You mean this wasn't voluntary?
I did a Walk to Emmaus. It was incredible. I highly recommend it for anyone. So much love and kindness toward everyone there with lots of surprises. Wish I could go again, but, alas, it’s a one time experience only.
I’m wondering if this group therapy is something like that which is called the “breaking of gestalt”.
I also wonder if it is the kind of group therapy that my husband refused to attend back in the 80’s (work-related sessions) and which totally dismantled one of his co-workers.
I am also wondering what this particular group therapy has to do with the discussions, debates and exchanges taking place on this forum. Surely there is no correlation to that kind of face-to-face encounter and the faceless, screen-names exchanges that take place here on FR religion forum.
As for the breaking of gestalt, it is an incredibly delicate job to, as Quix said, get someone to "throw meaty stuff out from their inner psychodynamic and relational junk", and it ought to be done with utmost of skill - not with an ice cream scooper.
It's incredible that something like this would be done in a group setting, small group setting, or "threesome", after intentionally putting them through sensory overload and then sensory deprivation.
I really don't know what it has to do with the religion forum.
Yes. We required it to be voluntary.
Genuinely voluntary.
It’s just that sometimes the other options CO’s gave those under them were not as attractive by a good margin.
But the vast majority were totally and cleanly voluntary.
May get back to this thread after my shower.
I see I need to clarify.
Yes, it was voluntary.
But it was like choosing to go to any other military training. Orders were cut sending you there.
Orders were cut sending the voluteering individuals to the workshop. They would have been AWOL to have left.
Goodnes, no, Mary.
You can staff any number of walks! It’s a ton of work and little sleep but incredibly fulfilling.
I’ve been on maybe 10-15 or so walks. Most of them in Taipei. Actually, all but my first one in Taipei.
I and others in our church there helped get it started. And the Lord and I helped add a very impactful ending . . . ceremony.
LOL
In thinking about this, a word comes to my mind: integrity.
I would also have walked out on such a group session. I am sure that I would have discerned that there would have to be a reason for assuming that I was a victim of RAD; that there would have to be a reason for assuming that the “cure” would be a breaking of integrity that had been built up over the lifetime a person—the kind of integrity (a wholeness) that had sustained one through the pains and joys of life BECAUSE it was God HImself who was willing it and gracing that person to endure, and to be steadfast and to be in that state of grace.
I would not have wanted the manipulation of men, acting as agents of change, to attempt to put me in that state. Instead I would want to let my guidance and direction be the providence of God in the daily occurences of my life, where He is in command and wills all tht happens to me.
This was the inevitable paragraph. This is the tidy little box.
Yes.
NOTE: I’d much rather have had different examples than myself to use in responding to such questions. But I have no better examples to choose from. Besides, this is my thread! And I’ve long been the best Rorschach and bag of tools that The Lord has blessed me with. LOL.
That “breaking of gestalt” must be a newer term from after my training period. I can guess what it means but I’m not really familiar with it.
I think work related sessions with the same folks one works with would be very hazardous . . . and all the worse without miracle workers for leaders.
We insisted that folks not work with each other. That was foundational wisdom.
What does that type of workshop experience have to do with this thread?
Uhhhhh, did you read my original narrative?
1. One of the main themes of my narrative was that God often uses . . . shall we say . . . very loosened construct systems with which we are channeled through life—our values and priorities . . .
God uses very loosened construct systems to rearrange our construct systems, our values, priorities, constructions on reality more to HIS liking.
Even chaos to God is still order. He plays chaos like a piano.
Good group process leaders, do as well. In a lot of respects, that’s how I teach my intro to Psych classes. Students love it. It’s real, functional, interesting, dynamic, meaningful, practical, matches their needs and goals.
Some of the shyer ones take some warming up to it. And I try hard to scare the shy ones away who are determined to maintain a death grip on their shyness.
But if they want to overcome their shyness—my class is a great place to do it.
2. The 2 year CREDO assignment as staff really taught me a lot and brought a lot of my God given skills to a higher level of much greater effectiveness and potency. Also helped me get over a lot more of my own wimpishness and shyness.
3. And, it made me a lot of the person you see on FR. Conflict is not something I have to run from or terminally fear any more. I know from thousands of hours of group experience that such can produce wonderful healing, wonderful love, wonderful lasting growth etc.
4. People railing at me in the worst language; worst attitudes; worst motives; in the meanest ways etc. just rolls off my back like water off a duck, mostly, most of the time in most respects. I don’t have to get hooked any more in devastatingly dysfunctional ways and degrees.
5. I’m much more spontaneous, serendipitous, creative in my relationship problem solving skills and strategies, efforts.
6. I know from tons and tons of such exxperience that the worst looking verbal interactions with the most horrendous words flung back and forth . . . can still be brought around to incredibly growthful and loving change for both individuals and for all those related to them—as long as they don’t run away . . . inwardly or physically. IF they will continue the dialogue—especially candidly, honestly, we can get somewhere.
7. I know a raft of RC’s hereon actually do hate me. That’s not mind reading, nor spirit reading, per se. And, it’s not reading into words what’s not there. It is somewhat tuning into Holy Spirit’s affirmations of sensings and impressions I’ve repeatedly had.
Even in my 30’s I might have cried myself to sleep over such a hateful assault as is often routine around here toward me. Such were the experiences of my childhood etc.
The hate concerns me primarily for those feeling the hate toward me. In and of itself, it’s no big deal any more to me because I know God knows the truth. And I have a long list of folks on FR and off FR who highly value who I am and what I’m about.
I’m chronically annoyed with hypocrisy wherein folks who are fiercest in their hate toward me inaccurately accuse me of being a hateful bigoted demonized ogre hostile to all things of the RC edifice and all RC individuals. That’s simply not true in any respect to any degree as God also well knows.
But for those folks screaming the loudest about Protty hate to be the ones who most intensely and overtly hate me—that’s fascinating and a horrific double standard, demonstration of rank hypocirsy.
Nevertheless, not even that causes my blood pressure to rise or me to lose any sleep. It’s just human. Par for the course.
Yes, my CREDO staffing experiences taught me, conditioned, me, trained me intensely . . . and a very intense PhD program added to all such with a lot more group process course work and field placement stuff—such as with alcoholics.
I’m used to breaking through lots of thick layers of denial.
Denial is an easy thing for me to ferret out, discern, wrestle with in some respects. That is I can easily wrestle with it constructively. However, it’s one of the most entrenched and difficult things to help a person get beyond.
Often it takes an intense group process to get a person beyond their denial—even just to see it.
In terms of what all that contributes to me here and now on FR. Somewhat hard to say precisely. However, certainly my intense communications style; the in-your-face; starkly vividly candid and provocative style comes from that and from thousands of hours of group, family and marriage counseling using the same skills and style.
It’s not everyone’s cup of tea and not everyone’s strength. Happens to be mine.
Folks hereon who wish to have no such intense connection with me are welcome to scroll on by.
However, I think to bait me, provoke me, play assaultive games with me and then to run wailing and whining to a mod when I say something forcefully back . . . is really cheap, low class, cheeky to the max; duplicitous and super immaturely dysfunctional.
And, it has to do with the satire and mocking style and strategies.
Most of the changes we make . . . most of the impact we have on one another has to usually involve a significant emotional component or it’s likely to be more or less shallow blah, chaff, ineffective in terms of lasting benefit.
I’m an intense person. Most folks above comotose can easily have an emtional response to me when I’m being overtly intense.
That’s currency, for me, to me. That’s useful money in the bank that can be used to help folks . . . sometimes even against their fiercest protests and most uncooperative attitudes.
There’s a lot that’s NOT transferrable to a non-face to face dialogue and group.
Surprising amounts can be, however.
My satire and mocking strikes piercingly to the core, bone marrow of a number of folks on issues of crucial importance.
Sure one can say the old saw about flies, honey, vinegar.
But flies, honey, vinegar does not fit well 100% of all individuals 100% of the time in 100% of the contexts. That is, there’s a lot of folks who will never move a micrometer toward greater fulfillment; greater closeness to God; greate closeness to their family members . . . if they are only related to in sweet gentle ways. They just won’t. One could flood them with honey, rabbit fur water beds and peeled grapes for decades and it would roll off their backs like water off a duck.
There are lots of reasons for that but knowing the reasons doesn’t really necessarily help either.
One of the most redemptive things that can be done for and with such folks is to shake up their construct system . . . those set of 8-21 bi-polar constructs that everyone in every culture construes reality with and thereby channels their lives through. GOOD/EVIL is one of the most common super-ordinate constructs.
Of course, a lot of RC’s seem to be clinging to the upper ledges of the higher towers of the edifice . . . holding on with their finger nails for dear life—terrified to let go of a single shred of the edifice’s composition.
But the edifice is not God. And God’s not impressed nor pleased with the competition in any hearts that treat that or any other human structure MORE AS GOD than God Himself is treated as God.
I’m not too bashful to poke amongst their constructs, their values in provocative ways. It’s not the ideal context but it’s what I’ve got. And, it’s highly doubtful anyone else will care enough to bother or be in any position to do any significant good, have any significant impact on some sorts of things.
I may well persistently fail for long periods of time with given individuals, too.
But I have to try as best I can. That’s what self-less love is all about . . . regardless of what the tidy little box packers think.
I just know that when I provocatively stir such folks up, Holy Spririt typically has an easier time slipping through the resulting cracks in the fossilized encasements . . . sneaking in rays of light, air, growth, freedom, . . . more of God Himself.
Of course I fail often. It’s an art more than a science. And it’s a very imprecise art filled with many cracked pots good only for being ground into grog.
Thankfully, folks are at least NO WORSE off. People are extremely resistent to change. Especially the sorts of people that my provocative style typically has the most lasting impact on.
And a huge overwhelmingly large percentage of the time, folks are at least somewhat significantly better off.
And, interestingly, that folks can end up better off, doesn’t seem to require that they consciously appreciate and like that I’ve had anything to do with them.
I often smile and laugh at what God does with me.
On FR, I’m frequently approached in FREEPMAIL for prayer or counsel . . . often about horrendous situations. And, I usually give them my most loving and gentle presentation of myself possible . . . which still tends to include some challenging very searching questions . . . and often as not—some very stark, startling suggestions. Yet, there’s lasting fruitfulness.
Some would assert that the other half of my ‘dualness’ is the dark side . . . Thankfully, they are wrong.
It’s just another SET OF FACETS of the diamond God is polishing me into.
I’m having a hard time coming up with another example of that part of me which would enable folks to see it more clearly and more accurately.
I think one of the aspects of Godspell which shocked me favorably and caused me to respect and like it instead of being outraged at it as being blasphemous . . .
is that Christ was fun, humorous, spontaneous, serendipitous . . . all the things that cause children to flower so wonderously.
And yet there was that steely, face-set-toward-Jerusalem aspect which knew He would die for those He loved . . . INDEED, was determined to do so.
Some minority of folks hereon seem to catch those aspects of my fierce provocative, satirical side. Others miss it entirely.
I think a couple of things the CREDO groups taught me very emphatically was that
1. People are very resistent to change even given the best context motives and abilities to change. Within some reasonableness . . . one doesn’t have to worry a lot that average folks are very vulnerable to collapsing into a puddle of protoplasm because one used the wrong word or tone with them. They’ve been practicing who they are for a very long time. Almost any movement would be progress.
2. The most frightful chaotic emotional distress and disarray can be the delivery mechanism for the greatest leap of growth. One doesn’t have to timidly run from such at all costs.
So, what’s the point?
All this is a foundational part of who I am and how and why I operate as I do in life and hereon.
One size does NOT fit all—at least not all the time.
But a wide variety of folks have been able to take out of those parts of me life changing stuff that left them far better off in all their significant relationships. I don’t feel I have the right to withhold that from any prospective souls who’d potentially beneit.
I told God He could spend me however He chose, and I meant it. And He meant it when He began taking me up on that more and more . . . and more and more dramatically.
Does it hurt to have ‘sado evangelism’ thrown at me persistently, liberally? Sometimes.
But mostly, I just consider the pit as the source and go on loving as best I can.
Besides, it’s not as though I go chasing after folks. My personality is such and the spiritual dynamics around me are such that folks seek me out either overtly constructively or the opposite.
And, thankfully, by now, I have being-me-with-God’s-help down a lot better than I used to.
So, I go diddlybopping along being me . . . often satan sends assaults . . . and God’s capacity to use even those for folks’ good and my good, never ceases to amaze me.
And, yes, I live dangerously face to face, too. I’ve been known to slip a thought-provoking hand written card to another restaurant customer obiously in the midst of some trauma or other.
I’d hate to get to Heaven and have God ask me why I didn’t care to bother or risk or love or be His hand extended in a given situation just because it wasn’t normal, customary or conventional. After all, He did NOT make me normal, customary or conventional.
“NO correlation applicable to FR?” Nonsense. FR is full of people. People haven’t changed a great deal. They are still very human.
The dynamics haven’t changed a great deal.
A) Folks don’t have to relate to me at all.
B) Folks can choose to relate to me any number of conventional ways and ask for such and get it freely given; no problem.
C) Folks can be tweaky, fiesty, provokative, harsh, snide, mean etc. and they are likely to trigger alternate strategies for relating.
D) Sometimes, folks trigger the unconventional, intense and creative merely by wandering within reach with a desperately glaring need.
E) Folks can certainly say when they’ve had enough. If they say it emphatically twice, That’s fine. But I may query them after the first time to challenge them or ask if they seriously want to stop. If they say yes, we can easily stop. Though I don’t tend to stop until the pieces are picked up and put back together if someone’s deliberately scattered themselves all over the floor. That doesn’t tend to happen on FR. Certainly not on public threads.
I’ve repeatedly asked folks who’ve gone the gauntlet with me in some unusual or unusually intense ways . . . if I should continue to walk where angels fear to tread. They’ve all—100% of them emphatically insisted I must. And, certainly that’s the sense I have from Holy Spirit.
Yes it’s different on this screens and characters technology.
There’s a wealth of face to face non-verbal cues that are missing and a great loss.
But what’s surprised me more is how much does translate. And how much effectiveness one can have, by God’s grace.
Most of my intense stuff like this goes on behind the scenes in FREEPMAILS emails and phone calls.
However, the intense provokative, satirical even mocking modes are somewhat also straightforwardly out of the CREDO experience and similar trainings over the whole of my adult life.
I think that the easy effectiveness and even the raw fruitfulness is typically LESS frequent; less in numbers and probably less in deep and broad levels of results hereon. However, I’ve been shocked at what God can do through such a flawed vessel in such crazy ways.
I think one of my most intense aversions is to the phoney, the shallow, the peripheral, the chaff . . . I want to get down in the middle of life and others and share the core realities of their best and worst and in that sharing to leave them much better off.
God has mercifully enabled me to do so thousands of times. In a lot of significant respects with more than 4,000 people. I’m not remotely ashamed or embarrassed about that. PRAISE GOD FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS. It’s been a blast.
I remember back on Compuserv around 1980ish . . . There was a group—hosted by a blind and deaf music editor for the Library of Congress. I forget her name. She was a treasure to thousands of people. One evening . . . partly through my being my usual unusual provokative self, we uncovered a cancer patient’s—I think it was his buddy’s intent to commit suicide. And we stopped it. God was gracious.
All of which to say . . . I have a lot of experience being me in all these ways that rattle folks cages the most . . . that leave folks wary . . . looking askance . . . edging toward the door maybe . . . .
One of the most persistently cage rattling things that is a lot more intense face to face is the fact that folks quickly become aware that I really do love them—simply, straightforwardly, powerfully with no strings attached. That probably blows people away more than anything else.
And it happens soemwhat on here but far less often and far less intensely.
Yet, surprising amounts and qualities of that kind of Christ-love DO get transmitted hereon—Praise His Name and Spirit for that.
Do I care about those who feel their toes stomped or their sacred cows gored!???
Certainly. Else I’d not be so diligent in goring their sacred cows.
Couldn’t I gore their sacred cows more politely? Less shockingly? More sweetly? More smoothly? Less offensively?
LOL.
Please excuse me deary . . . I just have a gentle little operation here for you . . . nothing much . . . just going to gore your biggest sacred cow and all the accoutraments she’s been squeezing out her bag for you. It will upset you and leave you very discomboobalated and feeling very disconcertedly out of control longer than you’d ever thought survivable. But as soon as we quickly get to the other side . . . a greater peace; greater resevoir of love within and without; greater fulfillment . . . will flood in.
I wonder how many takers there’d be, then! LOL.
What right do I have to be so outlandish?
Probably none, except whatever God instructs is probably more than a right.
And, again, folks can walk away any time. I make it very easy to shut me out.
There are some RC’s who seem to relate to me as a moth to a candle flame, however. Fascinating.
How could I love and exercise the ‘right’ to rob folks of such options?
I don’t want to hide my talents in the ground. I don’t like DADDY’S response to that.
I didn’t really set out to run all this out tonight! GOODNESS! I was just going to answer the questions in the post I’m responding to. Took me a long time to get from there to here. LOL.
Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will understand.
The rest, I guess, will just keep chewing sawdust and pretending it’s lobster . . . or hopefully, they’ll find something/someone that fits their sensibilities better.
I do have one request that probably won’t get real far . . . if and when you’re prone to castigate and shove me in a tiny tidly conventional little box . . . pause and ask yourself how on earth that could be remotely fitting or functional.
If you merely want to fuss up one side and down the other because like a list of others you don’t like hearing a lot of the things I have to say . . . whooop T doo. Join the club. It’s a fairly big one.
Few of us like hearing uncomfortable things about ourselves. Especially in neon lights with the volumen nob turned to max.
Yet it is the truth—particularly Jesus’ Truth that sets us free. And I’m of the strong opinion that I’d like to be freer in Jesus, regardless of the cost.
I guess that’s about enough rambling all over the countryside for one night.
If you’ve made it this far—take a break and give your beleagured eyes a rest! LOL.
Blessings to all.
For some, it truly is their tidy little box . . . dysfunctional and inadequate and unfitting.
Thankfully, it’s not true for all.
Pretending it fits no one is . . . a lack of perceptiveness, imho.
Sounds like God has been put in a tidy little box.
There was no breaking of integrity, per se. Sounds like a silly idea, to me.
The whole process intensified, strengthened individual integrity. Helped clean it up, purify it, make it more whole and congruent.
methinks some uninformed and inexperienced biases are flooding forth.
Manipulation is an interesting loaded term.
Isn’t education manipulation?
Doesn’t your boss manipulate you when he tells you what he wants done in whatever sequence however done?
Isn’t persuasion manipulation?
Aren’t the dozens of questions spouses ask of each other daily some level and form of manipulation?
How do you decide that the group process manipulations are evil and the others are not?
Why does it have a valid place in the religion forum?
1. It was a chaplains ran program based on the Cursillo design.
2. It helps folks understand how and why I operate as the sort of CHRISTIAN that I do.
3. It may enlarge folks understanding of options for growth.
4. It helps illustrate my main point of the original essay—that out of intense chaotic turmoil, GREAT NEW LIFE can arise.
5. Most of us don’t grow spiritually or otherwise unless we are feeling a sizeable amount of pain. What better place to feel such pains than in a very supportive, nurturing, professionally facilitated by truly skilled and truly loving, Christ-liek people in such a group???
Sensory overload? Not really. Nothing even close. Sometimes folks felt overloaded in the large group—but they could take minutes to reflect, ponder, sort and join back into the dialogue.
Sensory depravation? NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE. It would be better if one is going to toss a word like that around to make it at least minimally accurate to it’s proper definition and usage.
I think I’m beginning to get a better handle on some of the aversions around here. We could call it the Jimmy Carter Rabbit Syndrome . . . hop away as fast as one can . . . and blame the messenger . . . better yet, kill the messenger.
LOL. Sigh.
Quix, I am reading this as the day breaks here, thank you.
Sigh.
I will take this with me as I go to work today and face ... my various coworkers and a few ... daunting challenges.
Thanks!
So glad you’re back.
I couldn’t do that, at least not now. Actually, I couldn’t even GO to a Walk now with dialysis, etc. But it was a wonderful and very helpful weekend for one who didn’t feel very loved before. Since that weekend, God has really been healing me in that area. Praise His Holy Name!
>>There is still no way I would be in a group therapy session of any sort, especially work-related. I’m sure it must work or be of benefit for some, and I don’t deny or discount that. But to be in a group setting, where someone is pushing my buttons, and I know they’re pushing my buttons? Where they’re looking for me to make some change based on that pushing of buttons? No way.<<
It isn't about you, but rather the theory that “Group therapy” works. It was a very 80’s concept that has lost it's fervor over the years. The idea of “button pushing” for training people how to handle a situation, is a concept that was popular in the 90’s corporate atmosphere.
Companies found that it did not bring a group together but rather destroyed the group.
However, “team-building” does continue.
Personally, I would be looking into the credentials of such a therapist.
As with any type of therapy, sometimes one experiments. This looks like an experiment.
We often try to tell the RC’s that love does propel us to speak up and give the truth of the gospel. Of course, it’s not received or believed. From some you CAN feel the ‘hate’and disdain, although they would never admit it. After all, we’re attacking their ‘sacred cow.’ Must be they think it’s fun for us to do that. All’s the pity. I fear for some of them and their eternal destiny. I really do.
“Isn’t educaton manipulation?”
It shouldn’t be. It should be learning process which benefits both the teacher and the learner.
“Isn’t persuasion manipulation?”
It shouldn’t be. Being persuaded could mean having a conviction, which, for the Christian, can be a very good thing. As for the action of persuasion, such would take patience, humility and understanding—all of which would be gifts of the Holy Spirit.
As for the “dozens of questons spouses ask each other daily”-—of all times and places that manipulation would seem inappropriate, it would be in a marriage. Marriage is the metaphor (so to speak) of Christ and his Church, where as much as possible in our human condition, each should open to the life and love of the other, and where manipulation should not be a way of communicating and relating.
How do I “decide that group manipulations are evil and the others are not”?
First I didn’t use the word “evil”.
I would decide by realizing that I would prefer not to engage in group sessions, but rather allow God to direct me by the Holy Spirit He promised to send to me—by living out, moment by moment, that which He has planned for me and with the grace He promised to give me, in that moment, in order to live it out as well as I can in His sight.
I would depend on Him totally, in good times and in bad.
I agree with your comment of “team-building”. I would believe that this was the way of the Apostles.
Yes, that was a concept popular in the corporate atmosphere of the 90’s.
I said from the beginning I wasn’t interested in you, and yet your whole, incredibly long post is ALL ABOUT YOU.
Let’s get back to discussion of this risky-sounding sort of group therapy, shall we?
I think your illustration shows what happens when man tries to do things himself. God should be designing any "intense chaotic turmoil", i.e. cross-carrying, for his children. Not man. Sensory depravation? NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE
I disagree. Not being allowed to talk, and then using enforcers to make sure no one can talk, is sensory deprivation; IMO, to be sure.
>>Of course, it’s not received or believed. <<
Because of the way it’s presented. More flies are gotten by honey than vinegar.
And each Christian is called to witness with love, no matter what the person witnessed to says.
I don’t know why people are so willing to allow this sort of thing to happen to them. Just like I wonder why anyone would call into the Dr. Laura show and air their family/personal/career-related problems for millions of people.
I can see going, as an individual, a married couple, or a parent/child or other family combination to a qualified therapist with the necessary credentials and references. Any other sort of group therapy with tactics and tools such as have been described here, I would avoid to the best of my ability.
Explain this, and how it relates to our discussion, please?
The “truth of the gospel” (good news) is that we have been redeemed of our sins by Christ Jesus.
Catholics know, accept and believe that.
Jesus said He would not turn away any who came to Him.
Catholics believe, know and accept that Jesus is Lord. True to His promises, He won’t turn us away.
That is not our”sacred cow”. It is the true belief in Truth.
If you say you “fear for their eternal destiny” you are saying that we who are Catholic don’t belong to Jesus.
Tell me, how can you be the judge of that?
I well understand.
4 or so hours of sleep per night for staff and tons of intense giving all the other hours is a real challenge for all of us!
I had to take a break from it at some point.
But it’s a blessed thing and I thank the RC’s who started it all.
In a sense, yes, it started out as an experiment. At 38 years and counting, I think that stage is well past.
Thousands of lives have been changed overwhelmingly for the better because of CREDO and it’s program design.
CREDO also used to have follow up groups on the wharf for those interested.
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