Posted on 06/05/2008 9:06:20 AM PDT by Truth Defender
It is not surprising that most people in Christendom believe that they have an immortal soul residing within them and that “it will never die” – which is the meaning of the term “immortal.” This is a longstanding “tradition” in most church bodies; Roman Catholic, Protestantism, Baptist, Methodists, Lutherans, Evangelicals, etc. Jesus started His Church with inspired men setting it up and teaching its beliefs. But nowhere did they teach that man has an immortal soul residing within one’s body. As time progressed, un-inspired men introduced the pagan idea of an “entity” residing within one’s body that will never die, and they called it a “soul.” The origin of this teaching started around 400 BC, and by the time Jesus was born it had gained an entrance into the thoughts of Jews. But to the rest of the world, it gained the upper hand; most citizens of the Roman Empire had accepted it as an infallible belief. This belief today has become a “tradition” that is thought to be a teaching of Jesus and His apostles.
In this post you will read why many regard this traditionalist belief of an “immortal soul” to be against the nature of man as taught in the Bible, just as we also do with respect to the ultimate destiny of the unredeemed. Most churches teach what is commonly referred to these days as the Traditionalist position, whereas my views are more in line with what is called the Conditionalist perspective. The Traditionalist position promotes the idea that men inherently possess immortality, in the form of an immortal soul, which will immediately enter a Hadean realm at the moment of physical death. These conscious souls will then either experience happiness in a Paradise or horror in a place of fiery torment. At the return of Christ (Parousia) these souls will be placed back into their resurrected bodies and a judgment will occur. The redeemed will be with the Lord forever, and the unredeemed will be tortured in Hell without end. This is somewhat simplified, but true nonetheless.
The Conditionalist position, on the other hand, maintains that the biblical view of the nature of man is holistic in nature. Man does not possess a soul; man is a living soul (Genesis 2:7). Man, by nature, is mortal, but unto the redeemed a promise of immortality has been given. Thus, immortality is conditional, not the inherent right of all men. This immortal life is in the Lord Jesus Christ. At physical death both the unredeemed and the redeemed sleep in the dust of the ground waiting for the day of resurrection. On that day they shall be called forth from their graves. The redeemed dead shall be lifted up to meet the Lord in the air, and removed to a place of safety while God's fiery judgment rains down upon this earth and its wicked inhabitants (2 Peter 3:7 ff). The unredeemed will not be given immortality, but will be consumed by the outpouring of God's fiery wrath, for our God is a consuming fire. They will be utterly destroyed; exterminated. The redeemed, however, will "put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:52 ff) and will then dwell in the new heavens and earth with their God.
Thus, immortal life is a GIFT from God which will be bestowed only upon those who "seek for ... immortality" (Romans 2:7), and not upon all men indiscriminately. We are informed that Jesus Christ "brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10). I find no place in Scripture where eternal (immortal) LIFE is promised to those who have spurned God Almighty; rather, their fate is consistently declared to be DEATH. "The wages of sin is DEATH, but the free GIFT of God is eternal LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).
Had Christ not been raised victoriously over sin and death on the third day, then ALL men (even those who have died "in Him") would "have perished" (1 Corinthians 15:18). However, HIS victory at His resurrection assures us of OUR victory at our resurrection on the last day. This is clearly why the early disciples are characterized as going about "preaching Jesus and the resurrection" (Acts 17:18). They proclaimed not just His resurrection, but also ours. The ultimate hope of the Christian for eternal life is NOT in some ghost-like entity which is trapped inside our mortal bodies and which flies off to greater life at the moment of our physical demise (this is the teaching of paganism and can be substantiated by historical writings), rather the hope of the Christian is in the resurrection from the dead. The “immortal soul” teaching embraced by Traditionalism actually undermines the very foundation of the Christian faith, and makes the resurrection an unnecessary absurdity.
When God breathed the "breath of life" into our mortal dust-of-the-earth bodies we BECAME "living beings/souls" (Genesis 2:7). This in no way teaches that God put some "immortal spirit being" inside this physical body. After all, the same exact words are used of all the other life-forms on the planet ... bug, bird, bull and beast. God breathed the breath of life into animals also, according to Scripture, and they too became "living beings/souls." Indeed, the phrase "living soul" is used many times more often in Scripture of the other creatures than of man. Again, the biblical view of the nature of man is what is called holistic. The view of Traditionalists, however, is pagan dualism. This latter view comes more from Plato than from God, a fact to which Traditionalists seems woefully oblivious.
With regard to the two great eternal destinies of man, notice just a couple of key passages. "God has GIVEN us eternal life, and this life is IN HIS SON. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" (1 John 5:11-12). Our everlasting life — our immortality — is fully conditional. It hinges upon being IN CHRIST JESUS. The apostle John says that IF we have the Son, THEN we have the life. IF we do NOT have the Son, then we do NOT have the life! Traditionalists, however, declares the lie of Satan, rather than the Truth of God: Traditionalists say you DO have the life! God can't take life from you. You are just as immortal as HE is, even though Paul declares that He "ALONE possesses immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). Thus, Traditionalists teach that the unredeemed will have eternal life just as the righteous will have eternal life. BOTH will live forever!! — or so says the Traditionalist.
The Traditionalists, to prove their false doctrine, must literally reinterpret and redefine clear biblical terms. They will declare of the unredeemed, "Of course they still have life! It's just life away from God's presence; it's life in misery; it's life in torment — but it is LIFE nevertheless!" Traditionalists, therefore, declares that death is really an illusion, and that the person is actually more alive when dead. The Traditionalists redefine "death" to mean "life." It is characterized as a "life of loss" (rather than loss of life), but it is LIFE just the same (a fact they can't seem to comprehend). Traditionalists declares that man is INCAPABLE of ever truly experiencing loss of life. We CAN'T fully die. Why? Because we are just as immortal as God. Life is our inherent right, and we WILL live ... either with or without Him. What arrogance!
That certainly does sound a lot like the original lie of Satan to Eve, doesn't it? "You surely shall NOT die!" (Genesis 3:4). Then the crafty serpent said to her, "You will be like God!" In actuality, Traditionalists are spreading the same false doctrine today (the "gospel of the serpent") when they uphold their unscriptural dogma.
Remember the passage which some have called “the golden verse" or the gospel in a nutshell": John 3:16? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should NOT PERISH, but have eternal LIFE." Notice the statement which immediately precedes this: "...whosoever believes may IN HIM have eternal life" (vs. 15). Eternal life (immortality) is ONLY "in Him." That is conditional immortality. Those who do NOT accept the Lord Jesus Christ must receive the "wages" of their decision — DEATH. "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the free gift of God is eternal LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).
What is the ultimate destiny of those who die "in Christ" and sleep in the dust of the ground? They will be called forth from the grave and will "put on immortality." They will then dwell forever in the new heavens and earth. What is the ultimate destiny of those who die outside of Christ? They too will be called forth from the dust of the ground to experience judgment and their sentence. Their fate will be the "second death." They will be executed. It will be an everlasting death; one from which there is no coming back; no future resurrection to life. Once they are dead, they are dead forever!
Traditionalists love to quote Matthew 25:46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." What IS that punishment? It is DEATH! The apostle Paul tells us about it in II Thessalonians 1:6–10. The unredeemed “…will pay the PENALTY, eternal destruction…” And, yes, it will be just as enduring as the reward for the righteous. Both will be forever! For just as long as the redeemed are ALIVE, so will the unredeemed be DEAD. God does not sentence the wicked to a never-ending process of dying (as Traditionalists would have you assume from this passage in Mt. 25). If that was so, then the eternal punishment would be an eternal punishing; it would be DYING, not DEATH. The latter is a result, the former a process. The punishment specified in Scripture is DEATH. That result WILL be achieved. In the Traditionalists view, however, it never will be. Thus, Traditionalists have had to basically rewrite God's Word in order to teach their pagan doctrine of everlasting LIFE for the unredeemed.
I’ve been told that by preaching such things as this article does, that I am endangering my faith and salvation by God. The person that told me this was a Roman Catholic clergyman, and he may have had in mind the decree of condemnation hurled at Luther by Pope Leo X who issued a decree which condemned “all those who assert that the soul is mortal…” 140 years ago (1868), Henry Constable responded to a similar Traditionalist statement that he was imperiling his faith. He wrote: “Does it imperial our faith in God? What attribute of his is attacked? His love! Is it the part of love to inflict eternal pain if it can be helped? His mercy! Is it the part of mercy never to be satisfied with the misery of others? His holiness! Is it essential to holiness to keep evil forever in existence? His justice! Can justice only be satisfied with everlasting agonies? No; we do not endanger faith. We strengthen it, by allying it once more with the divine principles of mercy, equity, and justice. It is the Augustinian theory which endangers faith, and has made shipwreck of faith in the case of multitudes, by representing God as a Being of boundless injustice, caprice, and cruelty.” (The Duration and Nature of Future Punishment, page 236.)
I will conclude this article with the concluding remarks of a brother in Christ: Edward Fudge. He brought his lengthy study of this issue to a close, in his internationally acclaimed book, The Fire That Consumes, with these thoughts, which I agree with:
“We do not reject the traditionalist doctrine, therefore, on moral, philosophical, intuitive, judicial or emotional grounds, nor are we much concerned with the arguments of any who do. The only question that matters here is the teaching of Scripture. Does the Word of God teach the eternal conscious torment of the lost? Our modest study fails to show that it does.
We were reared on the traditionalist view -- we accepted it because it was said to rest on the Bible. This closer investigation of the Scriptures indicates that we were mistaken in that assumption. A careful look discovers that both Old and New Testaments teach instead a resurrection of the wicked for the purpose of divine judgment, the fearful anticipation of a consuming fire, irrevocable expulsion from God's presence into a place where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth, such conscious suffering as the divine justice individually requires -- and, finally, the total, everlasting extinction of the wicked with no hope of resurrection, restoration or recovery. Now we stand on that, on the authority of the Word of God.
We have changed once and do not mind changing again, but we were evidently wrong once through lack of careful study and do not wish to repeat the same mistake. Mere assertions and denunciations will not refute the evidence presented in this book, nor will a recital of ecclesiastical tradition. This case rests finally on Scripture. Only Scripture can prove it wrong” (Page 435–436).
“If a man die shall he live again?” This is the ultimate question and is answered in the Bible with a resounding YES! In light of this, because Jesus said quite a lot, as recorded in John 5:18–29, we must be concerned and submit our thoughts to harmonize with what He said. Thusly there is this question: “Life or death?” Jesus made it clear that He would raise men from the dead, and give SOME of them immortal life, and SOME to face the “second death.” The question is not WHERE you are going to live, but ARE you going to live?
No, LIFE is not promised them. Eternal punishment is.
According to Christ's word in the New Testament he does indeed. "What will a man give in exchange for his[possessive] soul?" "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your [there's that possessive again] soul."
And according to the NT, the breath (spirit, pneuma) and soul (psuche) are two distinct but conjoined entities: "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
I only read the first paragraph, but clearly both Old and New Testaments teach everlasting life.
PING
“I only read the first paragraph, but clearly both Old and New Testaments teach everlasting life.”
This is just another one of those “I know better” type of articles. I’m having much the same discussion regarding the Trinity elsewhere.
This could get interesting!
"And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
While some may believe they know or claim to know, no man really KNOWS the nature and destiny of man anymore than anyone else...if they did, then they would be able to prove it to anyone else.
If the rest of the article is as ignorant as this comment suggests, then you're wasting your time. Evidence of belief in an afterlife (immortal soul) dates FAR FAR back into prehistory. Even the Neanderthals had it (burials with tools and food containers).
Genesis 35:18 And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. Deuteronomy 11:13
‘And it shall be that if you earnestly obey My commandments which I command you today, to love the LORD your God and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul 1 Kings 17:21
And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” Psalm 42:6
O my God, my soul is cast down within me Isaiah 10:18
And it will consume the glory of his forest and of his fruitful field, Both soul and body; And they will be as when a sick man wastes away. Habakkuk 2:4
“ Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith. Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mark 8:36
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 1 Thessalonians 5
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1… Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
Revelation 18:13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.
The Scriptures, of course, mean nothing to modern day Gnostics, Mormons, and such like who teach, contrary to history and documentary archeology, that the Scriptures are not to be believed and were somehow the result of a vast conspiracy of "wicked priests" and rabbi's over many cultures and many centuries to delude mankind-- until these "knowers" or Joseph Smith showed up to set us all straight.
The original nature of man was to love GOD and was perfect in every way. Genesis says that GOD breathed life in man and he became a living soul.
Our original destiny was to live and love GOD forever. WE messed that up in the garden of Eden and changed our destiny. Until JESUS came and fixed what WE broke. Now that destiny with GOD is restored.
NOW the ball is in our court. Do we believe what JESUS said is the only way to GOD or do we reject it out of pride and ignorance(willful) and therefore condem ourselves to eternal separation.
Thats the meaning of life, weather(?) to accept JESUS payment for our sin or reject it. The choice is ours.
The original nature of man was to love and trust GOD completely. Genesis says that GOD breathed life in man and he became a living soul.
Our original destiny was to live with GOD forever. WE messed that up in the garden of Eden and changed our destiny. Until JESUS came and fixed what WE broke. Now that destiny with GOD is restored.
NOW the ball is in our court. Do we believe what JESUS said is the only way to GOD or do we reject it out of pride and ignorance(willful) and therefore condem ourselves to eternal separation.
Thats the meaning of life, weather(?) to accept JESUS payment for our sin or reject it. The choice is ours.
There are many throughout history, that would disagree.
Matt Ch 10 verse 28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
This shows that we do have a natural body and a spiretual body.
We do have a soul and it can only be destroyed by God.
Our body will die regardless of what we do, our soul is everlasting unless it is destroyed by God.
I believe that too many people will find a scripture that will half way fit the meaning they want even if they have to turn aside from the basic subject, I sure wish I could do that, I would feel much better about myself LOL.
In Genesis 2:7 I read a very straightforward account by man’s maker as to what He made. It says He fashioned man out of the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. The Hebrew is clear. It doesn’t say man then had a soul, but man became a soul. Further along I read that man returns to the dust from which he was made, and that the breath of life returns to God who gave it. Seems very, very clear to me.
It is essential that we understand what death is, so we can then better know and appreciate what resurrection is. Whatever death is, resurrection is the undoing of it. Resurrection is the antidote for death. It is the one and only escape hatch from death. Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life.
If a good person at death goes to be present with the Lord, what need would there be for resurrection?
I agree with much of what you said in your article; but, regarding your view of the time table and sequence of events surrounding the end times I disagree. I would love to discuss these matters with you.
Care to expand on your comment. Mind reading on FR is verboten.
Great post. Thanks.
placemark for awaited answer.
No, LIFE is not promised them. Eternal punishment is.
I agree, LIFE is not promised the unredeemed! Thank you. I take it that you might believe that whatever the "punishment" is it is not to an "immortal" body, is that correct? That is an IMPORTANT question, that you should answer. However, "eternal punishment," if you do not believe that the unredeemed receive "immortality," means that they are "subject to death," is that correct in your eyes? On the other hand, if you believe that a "soul" is immortal, i.e., not subject to death, then of course, you have no alternative but to believe that it is punished endlessly. This is a dualistic belief that man is both body and "soul," but is that the teaching of Jesus and His apostles. You say yes, I say no, but my conclusion is the result of years of study and growth in the knowledge of Christ. Naturally, you just might say the same thing. The question I raise to you is what is your conclusions on the nature of man and his ultimate destiny?
More information is forecoming in posts to others...look for them before you respond, please. And give me a little time to respond to the others on this thread, for it is all pretinent.
One of the important truths conveyed in the OT Scriptures, as the nature of man is considered, is that man is a unified whole, rather than a loose fusion of separate entities. It was much later that the pagans began to influence the thinking of the people of God in the direction of two (dichotomy) or three (trichotomy) distinct parts. This dualistic manner of conceptualizing human beings has persisted throughout most of Christian history, and began in the so-called intertestamental period to influence the Jewish thinking as well.
"A human being is a totality of being, not a combination of various parts and impulses. According to the Old Testament understanding, a person is not a body which happens to possess a soul. Instead, a person is a living soul. ... Because of God's breath of life, the man became 'a living being' (Gen. 2:7). A person, thus, is a complete totality, made up of human flesh, spirit (best understood as 'the life-force'), and nephesh (best understood as 'the total self' but often translated as 'soul')" (Holman Bible Dictionary, p. 61). "The Old Testament truth that people exist as a totality remained firm in New Testament writings" (ibid). "The New Testament illustrates four specific and distinct dimensions of human existence, but the writers of the New Testament affirm with the Old Testament writers that a human being is a totality, a complete whole" (ibid).
"In the Bible, a person is a unity. Body and soul or spirit are not opposite terms, but rather terms which supplement one another to describe aspects of the inseparable whole person. Such a holistic image of a person is maintained also in the New Testament even over against the Greek culture which, since Plato, sharply separated body and soul with an analytic exactness and which saw the soul as the valuable, immortal, undying part of human beings. ... According to the Bible, a human being exists as a whole unit and remains also as a whole person in the hand of God after death. A person is not at any time viewed as a bodyless soul" (Holman Bible Dictionary, p. 1295-1296).
"The ancient Hebrews did not approach man dualistically as have the Greeks nor, by implication, the general public of contemporary Western society" (Dr. Arnold De Graaff and Dr. James Olthuis, Toward A Biblical View Of Man, a paper produced for the Institute For Christian Studies, p. 81). "Man is not a soul imprisoned in a body. Both belong together in a psychosomatic unity. ... There is not dualism in the sense of separation, as though there could be full man either as body alone or as soul alone. ...together they make up the one man" (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 1, p. 134).
"The English translation ... 'soul' has too often been misunderstood as teaching a bipartite (soul and body: dichotomy) or tripartite (body, soul and spirit: trichotomy) anthropology. Equally misleading is the interpretation which too radically separates soul from body as in the Greek view of human nature. Porteous states it well when he says, 'The Hebrew could not conceive of a disembodied soul.' ... As R.B. Laurin has suggested, 'To the Hebrew, man was not a body and a soul, but rather a body-soul, a unity of vital power'" (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, Vol. 5, p. 496). "What is essential to understanding the Hebrew mind is the recognition that man is a unit: body-soul" (ibid, p. 497).
I gave a few quotations here, but it is important to note the growing number of scholars who have perceived the doctrine of dualism to be anti-biblical and totally opposed to the true holistic nature of man. This realization is especially vital to our present debate, for "what Christians believe about the make-up of their human nature largely determines what they believe about their ultimate destiny" (Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, Immortality or Resurrection? -- A Biblical Study on Human Nature and Destiny, p. 21). "A survey of the studies produced during the last fifty years or so, reveals that the traditional dualistic view of human nature has come under massive attack. Scholars seem to outdo one another in challenging traditional dualism and in affirming Biblical wholism. ... Christianity is coming out of a stupor and is suddenly discovering that for too long it has held to a view of human nature derived from Platonic dualism rather than from Biblical wholism" (ibid). Thus, as we examine the "parts" of man (body, soul, spirit) we need to keep in mind that these are NOT separate living entities that perhaps can survive apart from one another, and even prosper. Rather they are integral aspects of the whole man, and do not rise to higher, fuller life when freed from one another. Such a concept is pure paganism, and it has no basis in the Scriptures and certainly has no place in the teachings of Christianity.
The biblical view of the nature of man is probably best perceived in Genesis 2:7 -- "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." One could perhaps present this passage as an equation: Body + Breath = Being.
I am going to quote from another man who also examined and did a lot of research on this topic. Please bear with me.
"Of the thirteen words which refer to the animal or human body, the most frequent is basar, 'flesh.' It can designate the body as a whole, but the form or shape of the body or of its parts is not what is important. The focus is on the function or dynamics" (Holman Bible Dictionary, p. 202). The Greek word most often utilized for the body is "soma." The body of man was formed from the physical elements that also make up the earth about us. According to one source on the Internet, "A chemical analysis of man's body reveals that it consists of 72 parts oxygen, 13.5 parts carbon, 9.1 parts hydrogen, 2.5 parts nitrogen, 1.3 parts calcium, 1.15 parts phosphorus, and small amounts of potassium, sulfur, sodium, chlorine, magnesium, iron, silicon, iodine, and fluorine. The first six elements listed in this paragraph, therefore, make up more than 99% of man's body."
Although one might want to verify these figures with those better equipped to know than I, nevertheless the point is made that our human bodies consist of common elements found in the physical creation. Phrased more poetically: we are formed from the dust of the ground. In Genesis 3:19 man was informed, "You are dust, and to dust you shall return." Abraham, as he ventured to speak to the Lord, acknowledged, "I am but dust and ashes" (Genesis 18:27). "For He Himself knows our frame (what we are made of); He is mindful that we are but dust" (Psalm 103:14). Solomon, in speaking of both men and animals, declares, "All came from the dust and all return to the dust" (Eccl. 3:20). He later observes, "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was" (Eccl. 12:7). In Psalm 104, which speaks of the animals, we are informed that the Creator "dost take away their spirit, they expire, and return to their dust" (vs. 29). With regard to the physical composition of man and beast, it is the same. Neither has an advantage over the other in this area (Eccl. 3:19-21). If God should decide to withhold breath/spirit from both, "all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust" (Job 34:15).
"The wordplay between 'adam' and 'adama' (ground, soil) in Gen. 2:7 suggests the relatedness between humanity and the created world" (Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, p. 615). "There is a wordplay in the Hebrew text of Genesis 2-3 that indicates an intimate relationship between man (adham) and the ground (adhamah). God formed man of dust from the ground (Gen. 2:7; 3:23), made him to till the ground (2:5; 3:23; cf. 2:15), cursed the ground because he sinned (3:17), and decreed that he should return to the ground whence he came (3:19). The emphasis throughout Genesis 2-3 seems to be on the frailty and transitoriness of all God's creation, whether vegetable, animal, or man" (John T. Willis, The Living Word Commentary: Genesis, p. 102-103). "Our study of the meaning and use of 'flesh--bashar' in the Old Testament shows that the word generally is used to describe the concrete reality of human existence from the perspective of its frailty and feebleness" (Dr. Samuel Bacchiocchi, Immortality or Resurrection? -- A Biblical Study on Human Nature and Destiny, p. 62)".
I would imagine there would be little debate between you and me over the physical body of man (and by "man" I refer to both male and female -- Gen. 1:27). Our bodies are mortal, and thus subject to death. At some point, unless we are privileged to be alive at the Parousia, we shall die (Heb. 9:27). Thus, our bodies will return to the ground ... dust returning to dust.
The promise of our Lord, however, is that He will awaken us from our "sleep in the dust of the ground" (Daniel 12:2) and we shall be changed, this mortal shall put on immortality (1 Cor. 15), and we shall thus be enabled to forever dwell in the presence of our Lord. The hope of the child of God, therefore, is intricately linked with the resurrection of the body from the dust of the ground. Without resurrection, either Christ's or our own, we have perished!!
Obviously the physical body is not inherently immortal. Indeed, after the fall, man was barred from the garden and the tree of life (Gen. 3:24) lest he "take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Gen. 3:22). Thus, the body itself is destined to die (suffer the loss of life; return to the ground). For some (the redeemed) the hope exists of one day awaking and putting on "everlasting life" (Daniel 12:2), but that is yet future. At present there is nothing inherently immortal about our physical bodies.
Thus, the traditionalists (those who believe in man's inherent immortality) must search elsewhere for that special "immortal something" that is part of man's makeup. Some assume it is the "spirit" of man that is immortal. Genesis 2:7 declares, "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH of life; and man became a living being." It is this "breath of life," this "spirit of life," that is proclaimed by some to be immortal, and which consciously survives the death of the physical body.
"In the Hebrew there are two words for breath -- neshamah, and more commonly ruach. In general, they are used interchangeably for 'breath' and 'spirit'" (Leroy Edwin Froom, The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers: The Conflict of the Ages Over the Nature and Destiny of Man, Vol. 1, p. 36). The Greek word employed is "pneuma." "In the OT Hebrew 'ruah' means first of all wind and breath, but also the human spirit in the sense of life force and even personal energy. ... It is explicit that God is the source of human breath. ... In the NT Greek 'pneuma' can mean wind. It can also have the meaning breath. ... Both 'spirit' and 'mind' are used of the whole person and not simply of component parts" (Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, p. 1248).
The body of man is animated and sustains life as long as the "breath" dwells within it. In other words, a BREATHING body is a living body; a body where the breathing has ceased for an extended period is a dead body. God animated the physical body by placing within it the "breath of life." Life is a gift of the Life-Giver. He can also withdraw it. Psalm 104:29, speaking of animals, declares, "Thou dost take away their spirit/breath, they expire, and return to their dust." When the breath departs from the body, the body returns to the dust. Solomon points out that men and beasts "all have the same breath/spirit" (Eccl. 3:19).
This is an interesting fact, and a troubling one, for those who would suggest the "immortal part of man" is the "spirit." Animals have the same spirit!!! Thus, if this is the immortal part of man, why not also of the other living creatures? The simple fact of the matter is, when the breath is withdrawn, men and animals die. God is the Giver of this gift of the breath of life, and thus this life-force returns to Him who gave it. "The dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit/breath will return to God who gave it" (Eccl. 12:7). This passage does not suggest some "immortal spirit" (which is the real us) flies off to heaven to dwell with God. It merely declares the life-force has departed the body (thus rendering it a dead body). Since God is the Giver of this life-force, it is depicted as returning to Him.
Notice Ezekiel 37 (the vision of the valley of dry bones). The prophet was asked, "Can these bones live?" (vs. 3). Ezekiel didn't really commit himself, so the Lord said of the bones, "Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. And I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin, and put breath in you that you may come alive" (vs. 5-6). The prophet watched as the bodies were recreated and reformed. "But there was no breath in them" (vs. 8). Then he was told to prophesy, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life" (vs. 9). He did so, and "breath came into them, and they came to life, and stood on their feet" (vs. 10). This is almost reminiscent of Gen. 2:7, isn't it? God formed man, and breathed into him the breath of life, and man became a living being! The breath is the life-force of the body. Without it the body is dead. And this gift of the breath of life comes from God. "In Him we live and move and exist (have our being)" (Acts 17:28). "He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things" (Acts 17:25).
It should also be pointed out that "spirit" is not infrequently used in Scripture to represent the less physical aspects of man's being --- personality, emotions, attitude, and the like. Thus, one might be "mean-spirited" or have a broken or contrite spirit (Psalm 51). These terms do not suggest an immortal being trapped inside the body, but merely reflect the mental and emotional aspects of man's nature. "In both the Old and New Testaments, spirit is used of humans and of other beings. When used of humans, spirit is associated with a wide range of functions including thinking and understanding, emotions, attitudes, and intentions. ... Spirit is used extensively with human emotions. ... A variety of attitudes and intentions are associated with spirit" (Holman Bible Dictionary, p. 1300).
Some suggest that Psalm 31:5 ("Into Thy hand I commit my spirit"), which was voiced by Christ on the cross, proves that the "spirit/breath" is the immortal something which survives death, and is that immortal, conscious, personal part of us that lives on with God. However, the "spirit" of both men (good and wicked) and animals is withdrawn unto God. This seems to preclude such dualistic notions (unless you want heaven infested with the "immortal spirits" of rodents!!). All that is suggested by this expression is that the one expiring is entrusting back to God the gift of the breath of life. The confident hope of such a statement, of course, is that He will bestow it again and raise us back up to life. Paul, as he contemplated his impending death, wrote confidently: "I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until/for that day" (2 Tim. 1:12). I think Paul also knew that his breath of life was in good hands, and would one day be bestowed again!
"There is no indication in the Bible that the spirit of life given to man at creation was a conscious entity before it was given. This gives us reason to believe that the spirit of life has no conscious personality when it returns to God. The spirit that returns to God is simply the animating life principle imparted by God to both human beings and animals for the duration of their earthly existence" (Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, Immortality or Resurrection? -- A Biblical Study on Human Nature and Destiny, p. 74). "Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. His breath/spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalm 146:3-4).
Well, if it isn't the spirit/breath which is that "immortal something" within us that survives the death of the body, then it must be the "soul." Right? This is the one that most traditionalists choose as the immortal part of man. In fact, the expression "immortal soul" has become a very common expression. The readers might be surprised to discover, however, that the phrase "immortal soul" NEVER appears in the Bible ... not even once!! I am assuming Thomas already knows this fact!
"Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living SOUL/being" (Genesis 2:7). Some traditionalists virtually equate this last phrase (living soul) with "immortal soul." But, that is NOT what the passage says. God put breath within this body and the body became a living being. The exact same words are used of animals in the Scriptures. Further, it doesn't say man was GIVEN a soul --- it says man BECAME a soul. Big difference!!
A fellow minister once told me: "The one thing which distinguishes man from monkey is his 'living soul.' To my knowledge this expression is used ONLY of man; I don't find it used of bugs or bulls." Thus, according to this minister, that which makes man unique among the living creation of God is: man has a "living soul," and those other life forms do NOT. And, again, this "living soul" is equated with "IMMORTAL soul."
It would probably shock a great many to know that the phrase "living soul" is actually used more often in Genesis with reference to animals than with reference to man!! Notice some of these other passages where "living soul" IS used of "bugs and bulls." GENESIS 1:20 --- "Then God said, 'Let the waters teem with swarms of LIVING SOULS, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens. '"
GENESIS 1:24 --- "Then God said, 'Let the earth bring forth LIVING SOULS after their kind: cattle and creeping things (here are the "bugs and bulls") and beasts of the earth after their kind;' and it was so."
GENESIS 2:19 --- "And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each LIVING SOUL, that was its name."
GENESIS 9:15-16 --- "...and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every LIVING SOUL of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every LIVING SOUL of all flesh that is on the earth."
Lest you think "poor demented, deluded me" has REALLY lost it here, let me quote from an article by a well-known and respected scholar in the churches of Christ: Dr. Jack P. Lewis (who was formerly a professor at Harding Graduate School of Religion). In an article entitled "Living Soul," which appeared in the March 16, 1976 issue of FIRM FOUNDATION, he began by quoting Gen. 2:7 and then he wrote the following (I am only quoting a small portion of that article): "It is in particular the line of reasoning premised upon this verse which argues that man has a living soul and that animals do not have souls that I wish us to look. For many people this verse in Genesis describes the one distinctive thing that makes man different from animals.
"The phrase at issue in this passage is NEPHESH HAYYAH which occurs in several Old Testament passages and is translated into Greek as PSUCHE ZOSA.
"That which has been obscured to us because of variety in our English translation is that the creatures are also NEPHESH HAYYAH. Only in one out of the several passages where NEPHESH HAYYAH occurs is man the exclusive object of discussion.
"It would seem that arguments which try to present the distinctiveness of man from the term 'living soul' are actually based on the phenomena of variety in translation of the KJV and have no validity in fact. Had the translators rendered all these occurrences by the same term, we would have been aware of the fact that both men and animals are described by it."
As Dr. Lewis has pointed out, many of the translations (perhaps following the lead of the KJV, and its self-proclaimed desire to provide "variety" in translation) have rendered this term "living CREATURE" when it is used of animals, but "living SOUL" when speaking of man. And yet the term is exactly the same for both in the original!! The word itself simply conveys the concept of "BEING," or "LIFE." When God took this body He had created from the dust of the ground and breathed into it the breath of life, that body then BECAME a living, breathing BEING. This is said of both man and animal. And that is ALL the original text says!!! Nothing is ever said in these passages about either man or beast (or bug or bird) being anything other than "living BEINGS."
"Far from referring simply to one aspect of a person, 'soul' refers to the whole person" (Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, p. 1245). This word, like "spirit," can also be used figuratively to refer to the seat of emotions, in place of personal pronouns, or to refer to one's entire self/being. It also can refer to life itself. When Jesus spoke of the destruction of both "soul and body" in Gehenna, He was referring to the fact that only God has the power to destroy not only the body, but also the very BEING of a person. Men can only kill the body, but God can always raise it right back up. Only God can so destroy a person's BEING that nothing exists!! Thus, "soul" conveys the idea of not just a physical body, but the very BEINGNESS of the person!! MAN can end another man's "being" temporarily; GOD can end a man's "being" forever!!!
The "soul" is even said to reside in the blood!! "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood" (Lev. 17:11). In Gen. 9:4 we are told the "soul" IS the blood. This simply means the LIFE of the body. It in no way speaks of some "immortal something" actually living in the blood, or being the blood. Just as life is connected to breath/breathing, so also is life connected to the coursing of blood through one's veins. Without either the body is dead (a dead soul, not a living soul).
"The word translated 'soul' contains no idea of a spiritual existence. ... Really the word refers to the natural life of animals and men, maintained by breathing, or in some way extracting oxygen from the atmospheric air" (Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible, Vol. 1, p. 19). Brother T. Pierce Brown, in an article entitled "Soul and Spirit" (Gospel Advocate, June 14, 1979), wrote, "A consideration of EVERY (emphasis his) passage in which these terms are used leads us to the conclusion that the term 'soul' is a term that was applied in the Bible to every being that normally has sensory capacities (life), whether or not they have that capacity when the term is applied to them. For example, one might see a body of a dead person and say, 'That poor soul is dead.' The Bible uses the term that way, even as we do, and it has nothing at all to do with the immortality or mortality of the soul. It simply means that the PERSON (the one who HAD life -- soul -- sensory capacity) is dead."
"A doctrine of the immortality of the soul is not stated in the Bible and is not clearly defined in early rabbinical literature" (Encyclopedia of Jewish Religion). "Summing up, we can say that the expression 'man became a living soul -- nephesh hayyah' does not mean that at creation his body was endowed with an immortal soul, a separate entity, distinct from the body. Rather, it means that as a result of the divine inbreathing of the 'breath of life' into the lifeless body, man became a living, breathing being, no more, no less. The heart began to beat, the blood to circulate, the brain to think, and all the vital signs of life were activated. Simply stated, 'a living soul' means 'a living being'" (Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, Immortality or Resurrection? -- A Biblical Study on Human Nature and Destiny, p. 46).
Although the Bible does not teach this doctrine, in 1513 A.D. at the Fifth Lateran Ecumenical Council, the Pope issued a decree (aimed primarily at Luther and his associates) that condemned "all who assert that the intellectual soul is mortal." It was declared that the soul was immortal, and "we declare every assertion contrary to the truth of illumined faith to be altogether false; and, that it may not be permitted to dogmatize otherwise, we strictly forbid it, and we decree that all who adhere to affirmations of this kind of error are to be shunned and punished as detestable and abominable heretics and infidels who disseminate everywhere most damnable heresies and who weaken the Catholic faith."
In summation, the nature of man is: Body + Breath = Being!! Man is a unified whole, not a conglomeration of distinct entities. Man IS a living being; man does not POSSESS a living being! Man is entirely mortal in nature; no part of him is inherently immortal. Traditionalists, sadly, have embraced the dualism of paganism. My prayer is that they will one day see through this deception and come to perceive the biblical Truth with respect to the nature of man.
Sorry for the length of this response, but it contains my answer to many that have posted here. I hope they all read and realize what is being said.
You should have read the whole article. Please do so. I'll be hitting on "eternal" and other terms used in place of "aionios" in posts to others. Please read them also.
The "source" is much research, and I authored what is posted other than those I quote from.
Yes, many believe what they say...and it's true that no man really KNOWS the nature and destiny of man, but some know more than others. Being able to prove it to someone else is another thing: you can't convince another if they are not open to what you have learned from your research, and have concluded; unless they do the same research and draw their own conclusions. Each one has to decide for themselves.
Hmmm...It's apparent that you haven't read the whole article. I would suggest that you read the rest of the article before saying any more.
Read all my posts to "ALL".
You can bet your life on that!
Thank you. Maybe some day we can. How about starting a thread on that subject. My article does not even mention a time-table sequence of events between death and resurrection.
Why should I bother to read a vanity article whose first checkable fact is wrong?? Admittedly, I "did" try to go a bit further, but the writing is so poor and disjointed as to make that impossible.
When people misunderstand or incorrectly define words, they usually reach false conclusions. This is a fundamental problem of those who teach error. Therefore, it is imparative to define "death.
Some people, Traditionalists especially, reach a conclusion that 'death' is a SEPARATION, not an EXTINCTION. To them, death is simply of the body, and that the entity they call a SOUL within them is incapable of death; and that it simply escapes the deceased body and goes on its merry way.
Actually, I agree with the Traditionalists view that "death" is a "separation." What is essential for us to determine in each context, however, is: (1) What is being separated from what/whom, and (2) what is the ultimate effect of that separation? The full impact of "death" cannot truly be perceived without this larger perspective. In other words, merely acknowledging that a "separation" exists does not truly define "death." One must further seek to determine what happens to that which has experienced this separation. What is the RESULT, or resultant state? Only then will one truly grasp the biblical concept of "death."
I believe that when a person is DEAD, then that person (body and being/soul) has been completely separated/severed from LIFE. Death, therefore, is a cessation of life for the entire person, not just a part of him.
The concept of "death" appears many times in Scripture, and it is used several different ways. In each a separation takes place of one thing from another, and the dramatic effect in each is a loss of life, not an enhancement of life. The three types of "death" that are of primary concern to humans are often characterized as: physical, spiritual and eternal. "Theological distinctions are usually made between physical death, spiritual death, and eternal death and in general these are vital; but ... it appears that death in its totality is the result of sin. One must remember also that in the Biblical view, man is a psychosomatic unity. The whole man is the subject of death" (The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, Volume 2, p. 70). This latter is an important distinction.
PHYSICAL DEATH: This is perhaps the best-known type of death. In Genesis 2:7 we are taught that God formed man from the dust of the ground (the common elements of the physical universe around us), and He "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being/soul." In future posts on the nature of man we will examine each of these elements: body, breath/spirit and being/soul. The important point to note here, however, is that an animated physical body is a LIVING body. The person is a living BEING. "Living soul" is what a person IS, not what a person HAS. When the breath of life is withdrawn from man, then what is left is no longer a living body, but a dead body. That body then returns to the elements from which it was drawn. "By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return" (Genesis 3:19). Solomon describes this withdrawal of "breath/spirit" this way: "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the breath/spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). In Psalm 104:29 (which is actually speaking of animals) we read, "Thou dost take away their breath/spirit, they expire, and return to their dust."
Physical death is a LOSS of the breath of life, and the effect is the return of the body to the earth. A separation takes place. The body is separated from the breath, and a LOSS OF LIFE results. I don't think anyone would suggest that this separation should be perceived as a physical enhancement of life. When body and breath are separated, the result is a DEAD body, not a LIVING one! Life is not enriched physically, but rather terminated. Life for this person is extinguished. This is an appointment each of us must keep (unless privileged to be alive at the Parousia) --- "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).
SPIRITUAL DEATH: The Bible often refers to that condition of being separated from one's God (during this present life on earth) as a type of "death." This is commonly characterized among men as a "spiritual" death so as to distinguish it from physical loss of life. Thus, in many ways it constitutes a loss of the "abundant life" one has in an intimate relationship with one's God. "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He does not hear" (Isaiah 59:2). This "separation" is viewed as a type of "death," although the person continues to remain alive physically. It is a "death" in the sense that it is a LOSS OF LIFE … that abundant life that comes from intimacy with Deity. That blessed union is severed with the life GIVER, and the result is: one is cut off from the very source of life Himself. That is indeed a separation best characterized as a "death;" a loss of life.
Jesus likens Himself to a vine on one occasion, and He declares that we who are IN HIM are all branches. However, if we should be "separated" from this vine (severed from Christ), the result is "death" -- we wither and die (John 15:1-6). This is a separation resulting in LOSS OF LIFE. Jesus declares that He is the LIFE (John 14:6), thus to be separated from HIM is to be separated from the abundant LIFE He came to bring.
All of us, at some point in our physical lives, are "dead in our sins" and thus "separate" from our God. This is the concept of "spiritual death," and it is seen often in Scripture. Yes, it IS a "loss of life" in the sense we are not in a relationship with the life-Giver, and if we hope to put on immortality at the resurrection, then we must come to Him who is the way, the truth, and the LIFE. "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" (1 John 5:12). Thus, being separate from HIM is truly a LOSS OF LIFE; a "spiritual death." We are DEAD in our trespasses and sins, and as such are fit only for ultimate destruction in the lake of fire, which is the second death.
ETERNAL/aionios: Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, a world-renowned professor of theology from Andrews University, points out this dual significance of "aionios" in the following statement: "The punishment of the wicked is eternal both in QUALITY and QUANTITY. It is 'eternal' in QUALITY because it belongs to the Age to Come. It is 'eternal' in QUANTITY because its results will never end" (Immortality or Resurrection? -- A Biblical Study on Human Nature and Destiny, page 208).
At the risk of again being accused of deriving my theology from Edward Fudge, I would simply share the following quote from his chapter on the nature of this Greek adjective: "The traditionalist writers who deny any qualitative sense in 'aionios' have overreacted" (The Fire That Consumes, page 49). He also states, "Those nontraditionalist writers who deny any temporal sense in 'aionios' have also overreacted. They have not needed to deny the unendingness of the 'eternal' in order to hold to its otherness" (ibid). I think this states the problem well. The significance of "aionios" is not an "either - or" proposition. It is BOTH qualitative and quantitative. Those who persist in the premise that it can ONLY be one or the other show lack of understanding of this term. "Such reasoning fails to recognize that what determines the meaning of 'eternal' is the object being qualified. ... Ancient Greek papyri contain numerous examples of Roman emperors being described as 'aionios.' What is meant is that they held their office for life. Unfortunately, the English words 'eternal' or 'everlasting' do not accurately render the meaning of 'aionios,' which literally means 'age-lasting.' In other words, while the Greek 'aionios' expresses perpetuity WITHIN LIMITS, the English 'eternal' or 'everlasting' denotes unlimited duration" (Dr. Bacchiocchi, Immortality or Resurrection? -- A Biblical Study on Human Nature and Destiny, page 208). Again, I've posted at some length. Sorry about that, but the subject is important. Perhaps you, Overwatcher, would care to bring up the topic of "Hades" to examine. I could bring up a little, but to bring up everything I have so-far researched would take a book (another friend of mine is in the process of writing a book or booklet on that subject and has asked me to do some of the research for him, so what I've done will be in his book).
If a good person at death goes to be present with the Lord, what need would there be for resurrection?
Exactly!
Why should I bother to read a vanity article whose first checkable fact is wrong?? Admittedly, I "did" try to go a bit further, but the writing is so poor and disjointed as to make that impossible.
O'well, it takes all kinds, I guess. Sorry you didn't get anything out of it. Perhaps it would benefit you to do a little research on the topic for yourself and reach your own conclusions; and then post them for us to look at and comment upon. I'd look forward to that!
What amazes me is that the more one digs into the precious word of God, the more one discovers the vastness and richness of His truth. The only catch is: one has to use his or her God-given brain and do some thinking. But thinking is hard work, probably the hardest work we can do, and most people are unwilling to expend the energy.
You mention “Hades.” I submit that the Greek word Hades is the exact equivalent of the Hebrew word “Sheol.” The Holy Spirit of God used those two words interchangeably. Sheol and Hades mean “the state of death.” I know the classical Greeks in their mythology say it is a place deep within the bowels of the earth, etc. But, God’s word defines these two words as meaning “the state of death.”
Next, you spend quite a bit of time on eon, eonian, etc., and rightly so. Unfortunately, you and many others believe an eon is a very long period of time, even to include eternity. I submit that the Greek word eon more properly and precisely means a “flow.” An eon can take place during a long period of time, but it still means a “flow.” Sometimes a long period of time is called by a chief aspect of its character. The kingdom of God is such a time, and it is called in Scripture, the eon, primarily because eonian life will flow from God through those possessing eonian life out to others. That’s another topic for discussion, of course. But, when people use eon and eonian, etc., to mean eternity and eternal, in my humble opinion they are using this important word incorrectly. This leads to other problems in understanding the sequence or order of events that will take place according to the divine time table.
I can see how you might think of death as a separation - yes, it is a separation from being alive. But I think it is more of a return. Man returns to the dust from which he is made, and the breath of life returns to God who gave it. It is a return. I decline to describe death as a separation because that’s what Plato taught. He said that somehow a soul became united with a body (a very undesirable condition) and that blessed death causes the separation of the soul from the body, so that the soul can then be all that it can be (just like the army commercials). Jesus said that death is a return. I believe Jesus. Sadly, much of “Orthodox Christianity” believes Plato.
I think I’m going to pack for Florida instead. Have fun.
I don't post vanities.
If no one really KNOWS, how can someone KNOW more than another?
Research and conclusions are just that, not proof. Why should someone change their beliefs just because of another persons research and conclusions, even if they hven’t done their own research? Perhaps their beliefs are self-evident, and need no research.
The punishment is eternal (Matt 25:46). I won't waste time arguing whether they have a physical body when that happens or not. I just know the individual is not extinguished from existence.
Good insight! Much study is very tiring but lifts one's spirit to great hights as God's word come to life within one.
You mention “Hades.” I submit that the Greek word Hades is the exact equivalent of the Hebrew word “Sheol.” The Holy Spirit of God used those two words interchangeably. Sheol and Hades mean “the state of death.” I know the classical Greeks in their mythology say it is a place deep within the bowels of the earth, etc. But, God’s word defines these two words as meaning “the state of death.”
I agree here. Hades could be called "gravedom," the respository of all the dead, corporately. According to what I see the Bible saying, is is a "place," figuratively or literally. It is used interchangeably with the "grave." No indication is given that it is a place of "torment, torture, or punishment." Those who go to "it" are as if they are extinct.
Next, you spend quite a bit of time on eon, eonian, etc., and rightly so. Unfortunately, you and many others believe an eon is a very long period of time, even to include eternity.
Hmmm...I don't see how you get that I believe an "eon" - an age, includes eternity. I've stated that "eternity/eternal" is a poor word to translate "aion/aionios" as in many other posts I've made in these threads. If I was able, I'd abolish the use of the Latin terms in the Bible and our Enlish language, and use our English language to translate the Greek Scripture. Naturally, it is the context of any passage or verse of Scripture that defines what "aion/aionios" means. I could give a list that would be pages long of Biblical Scholars who wrote on the meaning of those terms as used during the time the Scriptures were written. I'm sure you may be acquainted with some of them, right?
I can see how you might think of death as a separation - yes, it is a separation from being alive. But I think it is more of a return. Man returns to the dust from which he is made, and the breath of life returns to God who gave it. It is a return. I decline to describe death as a separation because that’s what Plato taught. He said that somehow a soul became united with a body (a very undesirable condition) and that blessed death causes the separation of the soul from the body, so that the soul can then be all that it can be (just like the army commercials). Jesus said that death is a return. I believe Jesus. Sadly, much of “Orthodox Christianity” believes Plato.
I sought to define "separation" because many people, especially Traditionalists use it so freely to try to explain what happens at the death of a person/soul. You are also correct that Plato's teaching is "separation" of an immortal entity within a body that is called a "soul." And today's churches (most of them) seem to want to replace the term soul with a different entity, the "spirit," or to join the two together as "soul/spirit" when speaking of an entity residing in one's body. I use the term "return" sparingly. The "breath of life" RETURNS to God who gave it when one dies - and that includes every living creature on this earth, every single life that God gave breath to. I though I had made that clear in what I posted to "ALL" in this thread - did you read it?
Yes, it's very "sad" that "orthodox Christianity" has accepted the errors originated from Platonism in its teachings instead of what God has revealed through the Christ and His God-inspired apostles in the Scriptures.
Enjoy! Maybe you won't have time to post to these threads while having "fun" in Florida :-)
Neither do I. Don't you think that if the thread is a "vanity" in your eyes that it would be a waste of thier and your time to pursue it?
You just did, bubba. You may think your writing is comparable to that of Charles Dickens---but it's still a vanity. And IIRC, the site rules say "no vanities".
Research and conclusions are just that, not proof. Why should someone change their beliefs just because of another persons research and conclusions, even if they hven’t done their own research? Perhaps their beliefs are self-evident, and need no research.>/i>
It's just as I said. While research enforces what one belives, those who don't do research for themselves are not privy to all that is said on any one or more topics found in the Scriptures. And in that respect, do not "know" what or as much as the other person does. Self-evident beliefs are suspect in my humble opinion. Faith doesn't come to anyone without reading or hearing what others have to say (see Romans, chapter ten - "faith come by hearing").
In one respect, you are correct that "research" is "not proof." It is what one gets out of research and how it is harmonized with the totality of Scripture that research makes one more knowledgeable than another. Does that help you?
What would they disagree with?
We are created as eternal beings. Our soul will live forever. The question is where will we live? The answer depends on our choice.
Since the beginning of our existance we are spiritual beings physically dependent on our creator for our being and sustenance. GOD provides us with sun shine and rain, wind and frost, food and shelter. WE broke that relationship when WE decided that WE could provide for ourselves better than GOD could and that started our downward spiral to destruction.
WE try to live independent of GOD and act like HE is not concerned with our small life as HE has to run the entire universe and keep things in order.
That idea comes from our not understanding who GOD is and not wanting to, because if we understood who GOD is then we would be responsible for our actions toward HIM and our fellow men. (men and women) Which puts our motives and actions in the light of who GOD is and what HE has told us about HIMSELF and us, and what HE expects of us in our actions here and now.
The result of our self willed disobedence is separation from a loving and HOLY GOD and out from under HIS protection. It placed us in a situation we were never ment to be in. BUT GOD foreknew that we would do this and JESUS had agreed to take our punishment on HIMSELF before Adam was ever created or drew his first breath.
Isn’t GOD wonderful! :)
The punishment is eternal (Matt 25:46). I won't waste time arguing whether they have a physical body when that happens or not. I just know the individual is not extinguished from existence.
Hmmm...apparently you don't believe what Jesus said in John 5:28-29. Both the redeemed and unredeemed are "bodily" raised from the dead...the unredeemed to face judgment. Then in Rev. 20:11-15 we read of the "judgment." Those not found written in the "Book of Life" - the unredeemed - are to be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death. Being thrown into the Lake of Fire is the sentence that the unredeemed face, and that is death! Now, if "death" doesn't means what it means when person dies the first time here on earth, then what do you think it means when spoken of as "the second death?"
Eternal, as I am led to believe you take as "everlasing," would apply to the time period that the "death" of those who are thrown into the lake of fire lasts - a death that lasts the same length of time as those who have "immortal" life. Death is the opposite of Life, anyway you care to put it. This is how it is meant today, and how it is meant in the Scriptures. Death means the extinction of life. Or don't you believe that?
Many would disagree with the premise that we are created as eternal beings and our souls will live forever. Many would disagree that we have any kind of relationship with God, much less, that we broke it. Many would disagree with the whole idea that we were created to love God, heck, many would even disagree that there was a garden of Eden.
Thanks, but it’s not any help.
We can only research that which is KNOWN to man, and everything we research was written by a man, so instead of being able to validate any research, we just have our different beliefs.
Why would a self-evident belief be any more suspect than any other belief? Our constituion is based on self-evidence.
Thank you for the ping. But the writer of the essay apparently wishes to ignore what Jesus said to His disciples when a young man rejected the invitation to join the disciples and Jesus said “Let the dead go bury the dead With the departing young man Jesus sent identity of two identifying ‘deaths’: the youngman’s soul was spiritually dead though his body was still active thus his behavior mechanism was working (his soul of life force); the young man’s father was either bodily dead or to die bodily and ‘dead’ referred to the body death (we may assume, because Jesus said nothing about the spiritual state of the father yet identified the young man’s rejecting of following Him as a state of spiritual death). The confusion is usually wrapped around preconceived notions of dimension Time.
You are teaching annihilationism, which is false. If death were to mean ceasing to exist, you then have to explain how Jesus would use a false, misleading example such as the following to illustrate a point:
Luke 16
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] [Hades] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Footnotes:
- Luke 16:6 Greek one hundred batous (probably about 3 kiloliters)
- Luke 16:7 Greek one hundred korous (probably about 35 kiloliters)
- Luke 16:23 Greek Hades
You will say, oh that's a parable; it's not to be taken literally. To which I say, that doesn't help your case. It would be as absurd as Jesus saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a pebble that a man planted in the ground and it grew up to be the greatest of all herbs.
I don't buy it.
There are many other Scriptures that bear on the subject, including those which use the word, "spirit", many of which indicate that man does not cease to exist when his body dies.
Passages such as 2 Corinthians 5 compare our bodies to a tent, a temporary dwelling, in which we live:
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Paul says in Philippians 1:
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
There is also what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, which would make no sense if the thief were going to cease to exist at his death:
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
It cannot be rationally maintained that a person who has purportedly ceased to exist could be either "in torment", or "in Paradise", in the state of physical death as the Scripture explicitly teaches that men are.
Cordially,
That does not change the fact that these things are true.
That people fight so hard against these truths, many their entire life, should give us pause and wonder why someone would fight so hard against something that is “false or not true” spending great amounts of time and energy to try to disprove what we know in our hearts is true.
As far as us having an eternal spirit, what do you do with Rev. 19:20 & 20:10?
Rev. 20:10 uses a present tense verb “are” (where the beast and false prophet are) meaning they are very much alive, still in torment over 1000 years after being cast alive into the lake of fire? Then go to Rev. 20:15 where those whose name is not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Jesus left us no doubt that we are eternal beings. Those in rebellion against HIM and HIS WORD do not believe and can not understand things of the spirit. Which takes us back to the beginning of our trouble. Rebellion against GOD and JESUS. Thats why JESUS had to come and die for us, to fix what we broke.
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