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The First Day of the Week
Vanity ^ | 6-10-08 | Dangus

Posted on 06/10/2008 10:10:18 AM PDT by dangus

One controversial translation issue is the phrase, “mia ton sabbaton.” This has traditionally been translated as “the first of the week.” Under pressure from 7th-day Adventists, however, some translations of the bible have taken to translate this “on one of the Sabbaths.” But the Adventists’ translation is based on a faulty transliteration. In the Greek, “sabbaton” is spelled with either an omicron (“small ‘o’”) or an omega (“big ‘o’”). When spelled with an omega, “sabbaton” is the genitive plural. In other words, it means “Sabbaths’.” The Adventists’ position is that “primus” means “first;” “mia” means closer to the number, one. This is ordinarily true, but “primus” means “first” not only in time, but priority. Hence, to call Sunday the “primus” day of the week would be to denigrate the Sabbath. Hence, a strange idiom meaning, roughly, “Sabbaths’s one” is used for the first day of the week. The Adventists’ position would mean that for no reason, the bible uses a grammar which makes no sense: If the bible had meant “on one of the Sabbaths,” there’s no reason it would state, instead, “on one of the Sabbaths’.” An English speaker, fluent in Greek would ask, “on the Sabbaths’ one what?” Other bible passages make clear that the Resurrection took place on a Sunday, which would mean the Adventists’ translation contradicts other scripture… or makes one have to create more strange translation. A traditional reading of Luke 23:56-24:1 suggests Christ’s followers worked with all due diligence. Immediately after burying Christ, they prepared his burial ointments, then “On the Sabbath day, they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week…” The Adventists reading would have them resting on the Sabbath, according to the commandment, “but on one of the Sabbaths.” The Adventists’ position is that the Sabbath they rested on wasn’t a Saturday, but was a different kind of Sabbath, so that one Sabbath can immediately follow another. (Leviticus does call two other holy days Sabbaths.) While that might explain how “one of the Sabbaths” (if that were actually a valid translation) might make sense in general, it certainly doesn’t suggest that the author refers to a Sabbath on the very next day. Rather, one gets the sense that such events happened some undetermined number of weeks later. One reason that Adventists gain some cache with such odd claims, however, is that the timeline of events in the gospels is somewhat difficult to understand. According to traditional interpretations of the bible, Jesus celebrates Passover with his disciples, is condemned, killed, and then buried… all before the Jews celebrate Passover. The Adventists correctly assert that the evening after the crucifixion is not actually Passover! But they get the meaning of that wrong. The Essenes, who formed the core of Jesus’ disciples (Peter, John, Andrew, and others) celebrated Passover according to a different calculation than the Sanhedrin. That Jesus’ apostles are depicted as doing what the Sanhedrin would have regarded as women’s work in preparation for the Passover confirms that Jesus was celebrating the Passover according to the Essene tradition. The Essenes celebrated Passover from what would have been Thursday evening through Friday afternoon. Hence, Jesus offered himself as the sacrifice of the seder, and was killed the next day, all within the Passover. Then, the Sanherin began their Passover. Many Adventists suppose that the “day of Preparation” is only preparation for the Sabbath. Luke 23:55-24:1 confirms the traditional timeline: They buried him on one day, rested for the Sabbath, then went back on the morning of the third day to anoint the body with spices, as Jewish custom dictated must be done in all appropriate haste. If we were dead for three days, as we count days, then the bible omits mention of one day, leaving the reader to wonder why they neglected his body that day. Even though he was dead for only about 40 hours, he was dead for three days by the way days were counted then: he was dead on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. If three days meant he had to be dead for the largest part of each day, he would not have risen until the fourth day. The observance of Sunday is a remembrance of the Resurrection. It is in honor of his resurrection, not as a substitute for a Saturday Sabbath, that Christians choose Sunday as a day of prayer. Some people suppose that when Christ healed on the Sabbath, he was excused because the work was so critical, yet Jesus and his disciples did such mundane work as harvesting food for their immediate consumption (Mt 12:1). Given Jesus’ fasts, certainly satisfying hunger was no such critical labor. It is senseless to suppose that one is going to Hell because one fails to keep the Sabbath properly. As Paul preached, “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day (Col 2:16).” The Sabbath was a day to renew our bodies and spirits. As Jesus stated, “The Sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath (Mk 2:27)” Today, this purpose is fulfilled by keeping holy the day on which Christ rose from the dead.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: 7thdayadventist; adventist; bible; dangus; greek; restorationist
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1 posted on 06/10/2008 10:10:19 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Formatting is our friend. But it doesn’t always occur automatically:

One controversial translation issue is the phrase, “mia ton sabbaton.” This has traditionally been translated as “the first of the week.” Under pressure from 7th-day Adventists, however, some translations of the bible have taken to translate this “on one of the Sabbaths.”
But the Adventists’ translation is based on a faulty transliteration. In the Greek, “sabbaton” is spelled with either an omicron (“small ‘o’”) or an omega (“big ‘o’”). When spelled with an omega, “sabbaton” is the genitive plural. In other words, it means “Sabbaths’.”

The Adventists’ position is that “primus” means “first;” “mia” means closer to the number, one. This is ordinarily true, but “primus” means “first” not only in time, but priority. Hence, to call Sunday the “primus” day of the week would be to denigrate the Sabbath. Hence, a strange idiom meaning, roughly, “Sabbaths’s one” is used for the first day of the week.

The Adventists’ position would mean that for no reason, the bible uses a grammar which makes no sense: If the bible had meant “on one of the Sabbaths,” there’s no reason it would state, instead, “on one of the Sabbaths’.” An English speaker, fluent in Greek would ask, “on the Sabbaths’ one what?”

Other bible passages make clear that the Resurrection took place on a Sunday, which would mean the Adventists’ translation contradicts other scripture… or makes one have to create more strange translation.

A traditional reading of Luke 23:56-24:1 suggests Christ’s followers worked with all due diligence. Immediately after burying Christ, they prepared his burial ointments, then “On the Sabbath day, they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week…”

The Adventists reading would have them resting on the Sabbath, according to the commandment, “but on one of the Sabbaths.” The Adventists’ position is that the Sabbath they rested on wasn’t a Saturday, but was a different kind of Sabbath, so that one Sabbath can immediately follow another. (Leviticus does call two other holy days Sabbaths.) While that might explain how “one of the Sabbaths” (if that were actually a valid translation) might make sense in general, it certainly doesn’t suggest that the author refers to a Sabbath on the very next day. Rather, one gets the sense that such events happened some undetermined number of weeks later.

One reason that Adventists gain some cache with such odd claims, however, is that the timeline of events in the gospels is somewhat difficult to understand. According to traditional interpretations of the bible, Jesus celebrates Passover with his disciples, is condemned, killed, and then buried… all before the Jews celebrate Passover. The Adventists correctly assert that the evening after the crucifixion is not actually Passover! But they get the meaning of that wrong.

The Essenes, who formed the core of Jesus’ disciples (Peter, John, Andrew, and others) celebrated Passover according to a different calculation than the Sanhedrin. That Jesus’ apostles are depicted as doing what the Sanhedrin would have regarded as women’s work in preparation for the Passover confirms that Jesus was celebrating the Passover according to the Essene tradition. The Essenes celebrated Passover from what would have been Thursday evening through Friday afternoon. Hence, Jesus offered himself as the sacrifice of the seder, and was killed the next day, all within the Passover. Then, the Sanherin began their Passover. Many Adventists suppose that the “day of Preparation” is only preparation for the Sabbath.

Luke 23:55-24:1 confirms the traditional timeline: They buried him on one day, rested for the Sabbath, then went back on the morning of the third day to anoint the body with spices, as Jewish custom dictated must be done in all appropriate haste. If we were dead for three days, as we count days, then the bible omits mention of one day, leaving the reader to wonder why they neglected his body that day. Even though he was dead for only about 40 hours, he was dead for three days by the way days were counted then: he was dead on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. If three days meant he had to be dead for the largest part of each day, he would not have risen until the fourth day.

The observance of Sunday is a remembrance of the Resurrection. It is in honor of his resurrection, not as a substitute for a Saturday Sabbath, that Christians choose Sunday as a day of prayer. Some people suppose that when Christ healed on the Sabbath, he was excused because the work was so critical, yet Jesus and his disciples did such mundane work as harvesting food for their immediate consumption (Mt 12:1). Given Jesus’ fasts, certainly satisfying hunger was no such critical labor.

It is senseless to suppose that one is going to Hell because one fails to keep the Sabbath properly. As Paul preached, “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day (Col 2:16).” The Sabbath was a day to renew our bodies and spirits. As Jesus stated, “The Sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath (Mk 2:27)” Today, this purpose is fulfilled by keeping holy the day on which Christ rose from the dead.


2 posted on 06/10/2008 10:12:02 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Most excellent!


3 posted on 06/10/2008 10:21:42 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: dangus
This might be a thread killer...

Since today is the first day of the rest of our lives, the first day of the week is...today.

And to prove it...

One week form today will be the end of a one week span of time, therefore today is indeed the first day of the week.

Further evidence is found in 1 COR

“One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind....
...You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat...
...therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way....
...Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. for the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men....
...Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification....
...So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. but the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin....”

And Paul begins his letter with “Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” Grace always comes before peace. It is grace that bring peace.

Legalism, on the other hand brings division and strife, pride and sin.

...just my thoughts.

Grace to you!
baaa

4 posted on 06/10/2008 10:52:24 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: woollyone

How is that a thread killer, oh, woolly one?

You’re always welcome around my threads. We like sheep. It says so in the bible:

“We like sheep” — Isaiah 53:6

:^D


5 posted on 06/10/2008 10:56:53 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

mmmm...sheeeep...
..with mint jelly!

The sheep shall inherit the mirth!
(might be my new tag line)


6 posted on 06/10/2008 10:58:27 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: woollyone

For anyone who doesn’t get the reference, citing Isaiah 53:6 for “we like sheep” is a joke. The passage, is “We, like sheep, have been led astray.”


7 posted on 06/10/2008 11:07:56 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

I recall a study by Chuck Swindol on the Ressurection.

A key fact discussed was the 3-days & 3-nights issue. The Sunday AM resurrection cannot include three days and three nights ont he Jewish reconing of time, with a Friday crucifiction. However it has been taught that the crucificxion was Friday because we’re told that the next day was the sabbath.

However, Chuck had found in the Greek the implication that it was called the “Week of Sabbaths”, as there were actually two sabbaths that week...Friday and Saturday. THis apparently makes the Thrusday Crucifixion make the 3day/3night scenario work perfectly too.

I have to do lots of searching in my notes to find the specific scripture references and am not prepared to present them while at work right now, but will look this evening.

So hold the flames until tomorrow please!

nobody like their sheep burnt!
Medium rare is best!


8 posted on 06/10/2008 11:10:46 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: dangus

got it right away!


9 posted on 06/10/2008 11:13:03 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: woollyone

The problem with that resolution of three days and three nights is that Christ dying on Thursday and rising on Sunday would mean he rose on the fourth day.

HOWEVER:

Scripture doesn’t actually say Christ would be dead three days and three nights. If he offered his body and bread to the apostles on Thursday, was imprisoned briefly afterwards, and rose on Sunday it would meet what scripture says, which is that he would spend three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

Incidentally, an ancient tradition of the Catholic faith is that after Holy Thursday mass (a commemmoration of the Lord’s Supper), the Eucharist (the body of Christ) is removed from adoration until the Easter vigil.


10 posted on 06/10/2008 11:26:38 AM PDT by dangus
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To: DouglasKC; Chris DeWeese; XeniaSt; fortheDeclaration; topcat54; Dr. Eckleburg; P8riot; ...

This is actually something I was motvated to write along time ago, but never posted. So this is a ping to people who have been active on past threads about Sabbath/Sunday.


11 posted on 06/10/2008 11:28:08 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Excellent! That was much more concisely stated than I would have put things! One question, though. Why do you assert that Peter, John, Andrew and other Apostles were Essenes? They were simple fishermen on the Sea of Galilee, with no direct line of communication to the overwhelming preponderance of Essenes on the shore of the Dead Sea, over one hundred miles away. Not trying to crank you, I’m just curious to see what you have here.


12 posted on 06/10/2008 11:29:32 AM PDT by magisterium
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To: dangus

Every day is the sabbath..


13 posted on 06/10/2008 11:35:52 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: magisterium

Peter, John, and Andrew were disciples of John the Baptist (John 1:35-37). John the Baptist was an Essene, from his description, and the pre-Christian writings his follower, John picked up. (John 1:1-18 is an Essene prophecy, with interpretations interspersed within it.)


14 posted on 06/10/2008 11:43:46 AM PDT by dangus
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To: magisterium

To be somewhat more precise: John the Baptist and his followers were heavily influenced by Essenes.


15 posted on 06/10/2008 11:45:39 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
Jesus himself, in His prophecy recorded in Matt 12:40...

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

And a Thursday Crucifixion and burial before sunset with an early Sunday AM resurrection is three days and three nights, by reckoning in the Jewish timing of days, which went from sunset to sunset.

Thursday afternoon 1st day
Thursday after sunset 1st night
Friday sunrise 2nd day
Friday after sunset 2nd night
Saturday after sunrise 3rd day
Saturday after sunset 3rd night.

Risen Sunday morning before dawn.
3 days/ 3 nights.

Matt 28:1 states that Mary went to the tomb at dawn but He was already risen...before dawn.p>

3days/3nights, as He prophesied.
So I guess we agree?

BTW, not being Catholic, I'm not very familiar with the Catholic liturgy, but the comment is interesting.

16 posted on 06/10/2008 12:00:38 PM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: magisterium

I did a little more fact-checking to be able to say a little mre about the Johannine-Essene connection:

John was in line to be a priest, but went to the desert, rather than the Temple. In doing so, he followed the Essenes’ founder. (It’s even been supposed that he may have been taken in by the Essenes after the death of his parents. Don’t forget that Elizabeth and Zecharais were both exceptionally old.) From his mastery of Greek, he studied Greek literature intensely, as well as certain apocryphal works associated with Greek, as the Essenes did.

The Essenes practiced baptism in the Jordan as a means of ritual purification and a symbol of new birth and repentance. They believed the Messiah’s return was imminent. They wrote much of John 1:1-18, which John appears to be interpreting for people familiar with the work. They have apocalyptic literature similar to the Book of Revelation, which may even have been partly authored by John the Baptist. Both dressed as Old Testament prophets, in clothes of camel hair, fastened with leather belts. Both ate locusts and honey. And, as I mentionned in the main piece, Jesus, John and his followers apparently followed the Essene Passover customs.

However, John wasn’t part of a movement, but was his own one-man movement, and he did seem to be proclaiming that Joe Everybody could be a priest, by baptising all comers... So when I say that they were Essenes, I mean in the sense of apparently subscribing to man Essene practices and Essene theology; It’s doubtful that they lived as part of an Essene community.


17 posted on 06/10/2008 12:12:17 PM PDT by dangus
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To: woollyone

>> 3days/3nights, as He prophesied. So I guess we agree? <<

Well, not really, because that would make Sunday morning the fourth day. By the way you count, he’d’ve had to be risen by Saturday afternoon. I’m supposing ... and I didn’t put this in the main article because I’m on less certain ground ... that the three nights were Thursday, Friday and Saturday, and the three days were Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

One dubious explanation is that Christ wasn’t fully material by Sunday morning, hence, he told Mary not to cling to him (in contrast to Thomas, whom he would instruct to probe his wounds).

What seems more likely to me is that the sun was up, it counted as a day.


18 posted on 06/10/2008 12:19:29 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
OK.

I'd rather say that, through John the Baptist (who was at least heavily influenced by the Essenes), Peter John and Andrew may have, in turn, been somewhat influenced by the Essene movement. But I personally wouldn't go so far as to say that they were Essenes themselves, or even stake much of a claim on their Essene-like characteristics. They probably weren't with John the Baptist all that long, anyway. But I don't want to inadvertently hijack this thread with a sidebar discussion, so I just want to thank you for your clarification.

19 posted on 06/10/2008 12:28:17 PM PDT by magisterium
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To: hosepipe
Every day is the sabbath..

Amen, now that Christ is risen

20 posted on 06/10/2008 12:32:30 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: dangus
Let me try this again...
Jews consider tonight after sundown...to be tomorrow.
That is why the Sabbath always begins as sundown on Friday.
Because after Sundown on Friday...that is actually Saturday to a Jew...and Saturday after sundown, the Sabbath ends, because to them, that is Actually Sunday.

See?

So...with that in mind, let me re-post the sequence...

Jesus was buried before sundown on Thursday...that's the Jewish Thursday day. He rose before sunrise...what we call Sunday morning, but a Jew would call Saturday night.

so again...
Thursday afternoon 1st day
Thursday after sunset 1st night (that's a Jewish Friday)
Friday sunrise 2nd day
Friday after sunset 2nd night(that's a Jewish Saturday)
Saturday after sunrise 3rd day
Saturday after sunset 3rd night.(that's a Jewish Sunday)

Clearly in Jewish reckoning of days/nights, Christ was in the earth three days and three nights. In the Bible, and part or whole of a day or night is reckoned as whole day or night. SO even though He was in the tomb on Thursday day for a brief time, it is still considered a “day”.

There is no need to allegorize the clear meaning of Christ, when viewed form the Jewish perspective. It is NOT four days.

And with a Friday afternoon crucifixion, there is ABSOLUTLEY no way to reconcile Christ's very clear prophecy of three days and three nights. Not with a Jewish reckoning of days and not with our current reckoning of days that start and end at midnight. It cannot be done.

peace

21 posted on 06/10/2008 12:33:18 PM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: dangus
I just went through a month long Prophecy seminar at an SDA church. They do not believe we are going to hell if we worship on a different day. I work with an SDA gentleman, a good Christian guy. The whole seminar was very thought provoking.
After much thought and deliberation I have come up with this compromise and feel satisfied. On Six days, I do my labor, and on the Seventh I rest according to Gods command. That rest day just happens to be the first day of the week according to the calendar.
I feel I am worshipping God according to His commands, and celebrating Christs victory over death and hell. Some of you may not agree, I know SDA does not agree. But I do not let anyone make me feel bad as Colassians 2 points out.
22 posted on 06/10/2008 1:04:53 PM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: vpintheak

Christians are not commanded to work 6 days and then rest for one. We are not required to keep the sabbath.


23 posted on 06/10/2008 1:12:06 PM PDT by jkl1122
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To: jkl1122

Did Christ not say He came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it? Are we not to emulate Christ? Are we not commanded to be perfect, as God is perfect? We are absolutely supposed to follow Gods commands. We are not allowed to pick and choose. That is one slippery slope yoou are trying to walk up brother.


24 posted on 06/10/2008 1:21:46 PM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: jkl1122; hosepipe
You are correct, Christians are not under the Law. In fact, I would go farther and say that being in Christ is the ultimate Sabbath, that Christ Himself is our Sabboth, our peace and our rest.

Hebrews 3:18

And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not ?

3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

25 posted on 06/10/2008 1:43:01 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: woollyone

>> Jesus was buried before sundown on Thursday...that’s the Jewish Thursday day. <<

That’s the picking point... He was buried on a Friday.


26 posted on 06/10/2008 2:00:08 PM PDT by dangus
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To: vpintheak

>> I just went through a month long Prophecy seminar at an SDA church. They do not believe we are going to hell if we worship on a different day. <<

Some may have mellowed out. They used to be strict restorationists, holding that all other churches were demonic. If they really have mellowed out their theology, I’m glad to hear of it, but from my recent encounters (2001-2003), I’d guess it’s more likely that they’ve adopted a strategy similar to the Mormons: leave the tough doctrines until people are hooked.

It’s tough to imagine them mellowing out so much, since their existential belief is the grandest conspiracy theory in the history of man: that all of Christianity was subverted by Satan through the workings of Constantine who somehow tricked all of Christendom (including those waaaay beyond the influence of the Roman Empire) to worship a pagan god by worshiping on Sundays.


27 posted on 06/10/2008 2:06:44 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Thanks.


28 posted on 06/10/2008 2:14:29 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: woollyone
The positions you have outlined here, are persuasive. Yet still, with this better fit, timewise, an even count still remains difficult, as counting the "day" of crucifixion as a day "in the earth" seems problematic to me, being as they had to hurry just to get all the preparations done before sundown.

If they only beat the sun disappearing over the Western horizon by say (for discussion's sake) an half-hour or so, possibly less --- would that still count as a "day"?

If not, and one could somehow reasonably push the crucifixion back yet another day, with the next somewhat mid-week day being on of those "extra" Sabbaths, then the count gets too long by half a day or so...?

Please don't get me wrong here... I'm not meaning to be argumentative, in the very least. Frankly, I lack the wherewithal, knowledge, and time to research, digging back through calendar changes of several cultures in an attempt to unravel the mysteries. Though I have heard it explained in fairly close detail previously, including in the argument put forth, much the same sort of observation or way of thinking you share with us here...

29 posted on 06/10/2008 2:35:40 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: dangus

There was talk of Constantine and the change of the Sabbath of course. Mostly it was talk of the Catholic Church during Constantines rule met and changed the worship day to Sunday. Then given to us if we wanted to follow the law of man or God. The Speaker probably 2 times every meeting stressed God has His lambs in every denomination. There was no real bigotry at all. I also do not feel any bigotry from my coworker who is a SDA.


30 posted on 06/10/2008 3:35:08 PM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: vpintheak

I never meant to suggest anyone was a bigot. But you went to a prophesy seminar, and you were told you were worshiping on the wrong day, and had it put to you whether you would obey God or obey man. IOW: you went for one purpose, and got a low-key, but high-pressure sales pitch to convert faiths.

Some would consider the SDA dishonest for that.


31 posted on 06/10/2008 5:13:23 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

(by “the SDA” I mean “the member of the SDA who did that,” not the entire church; it would be silly to blame the whole organization on one unscrupulous proselytizer.)


32 posted on 06/10/2008 5:23:35 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

I knew what I was getting into, and have no plans on converting. I was interested in revelations, and they did a great job with my kids. Trust me, I know the lady who was leading the kids service. I wasn’t worried a bit.


33 posted on 06/10/2008 5:38:07 PM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: vpintheak

>> I was interested in revelations, and they did a great job with my kids. Trust me, I know the lady who was leading the kids service. I wasn’t worried a bit. <<

Tell me how harmless it is when the SDA’s attacks on church history leads your kids to read Elaine Pagels’ gnosticism by the time they hit about 16 or 18. Because that’s the irony of the SDA: by attacking church history, they also validate every argument of wiccans, pagans, gnostics, and those most idiotic of heretics: Da Vinci Code fans.


34 posted on 06/10/2008 5:46:45 PM PDT by dangus
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To: Salvation

I found your e-mail as soon as I was done re-posting with formatting. I was impressed how fast you were. I was like, “alright, alright, already!” Hee-hee. Blessings to you!


35 posted on 06/10/2008 5:48:02 PM PDT by dangus
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To: BlueDragon

In normal usage, the term “day” is normally understood to be either a part of, or an entire day.

Backing the crucifixion to Wednesday, or having it on Friday, cannot acocunt for 3 days and 3 nights. Wednesday makes too much and Firday makes too little.

Not claiming superior knowledge, just presentign a theory that is interesting for discussion.

Most important, is that our faith overcomes our doubts.


36 posted on 06/11/2008 5:49:12 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: dangus

First, the word “Friday” is not in the text.
Second, without allegory, how do you account 3 days and three nights int he earth.

Jesus used Jonah as a letteral example and ocmparison to say that he would literally be the same duration in the earth.

BTW, did not have time last night to dif further into the subject at home. Will try again tonight.


37 posted on 06/11/2008 5:49:43 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: BlueDragon

Ok...did a quick google search and came up with a few comparable articles...

Search results here...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=ig&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=chuck+swindoll+plural+sabbaths&spell=1

First article from the search that I read and agrees with Chuck’s teaching on the subject here...
http://www.bibleteacher.org/pdf_sermons/What_Day_Did_Jesus_Die.pdf

AN interesting not eis the context of the Matt 12 prophecy, seems to be that the Pharisees asked for a sign and Jesus said that the only sign given would be that the Son of Man would be as Jonah, 3 dyas and 3 nights in the eart. SO to my ears and logic it would seem that this was a prophecy to be taken literally, not figuartively, because it was meant to be a conformation of Jesus’ diviniyt. Just my thoughts.

More importanlty, let God be glorified and all here be blessed!


38 posted on 06/11/2008 6:12:09 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: dangus

Thanks.


39 posted on 06/11/2008 6:23:27 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: dangus; vpintheak; jkl1122; woollyone; Salvation

The article has so many warps in it that it is better to begin from scratch. The most ancient aramaic text, the Peshita says the “first of the Sabbaths”. The Latin Vulgate (400 AD) says the same. The Valera and the Reina say the same. The Greek says the same. It’s not” the first day of the week” or “one of the Sabbaths”. “First of the Sabbaths” means the first 7th day sabbath during the count of the Omer which begins on the 16th Nisan, the day after the “High Sabbath” of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (15th Nisan). (John 19:31). There are 3 High Days that are days of no labor or rest. The other two are Pentecost and Feast of Tabernacles.

Before I proceed any farther in clarifying all the errors in this article, I’ll pause for any feed-back.

Blessings in your search for TRUTH


40 posted on 06/11/2008 6:27:56 AM PDT by Harrymehome
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To: woollyone; dangus
Second, without allegory, how do you account 3 days and three nights int he earth.

What do you mean by allegory?

The phrase "three days and three nights" is a Hebrew idiom which means a portion of time covering roughly what we would think of as three days.

In Luke 24 is the post-resurrection account of Jesus walking with the disciples after His resurrection. We are told that it was the first day of the week (v. 1), and we are also told in that account that "it was the third day" after the events in Jerusalem beginning with the trial and crucifixion (v. 21).

Using this set of facts, the Hebrews of Jesus’ day would have understood Friday as the first day, Saturday as the second day, and Sunday as the third day.

41 posted on 06/11/2008 6:35:36 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: vpintheak

Since Christ fulfilled the law, the law is no longer in effect. This is made clear by many passages of Scripture.


42 posted on 06/11/2008 6:38:23 AM PDT by jkl1122
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To: topcat54

“What do you mean by allegory?”

You cannot get teh specific three days and threes nights as prophsied by Jesus (Matt 12:39-40) with a Friday afternoon burial. Can’t happen. He rose before sunrise on Sunday.


43 posted on 06/11/2008 6:43:13 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: topcat54

“What do you mean by allegory?”

Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy.
Thus an allegory is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning.


You cannot get the specific three days and threes nights as prophsied by Jesus (Matt 12:39-40) with a Friday afternoon burial. Can’t happen. He rose before sunrise on Sunday.


44 posted on 06/11/2008 6:44:27 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: Harrymehome

Where do *I* begin?

You cite the Peshitta as the most ancient Aramaic text. The implication would be that being so ancient, it’s authoritative. But the NEW TESTAMENT Peshitta is a back-translation that’s centuries older than the OT Peshitta. Did you know that? Did you know that “Sabbath” has come to mean, simply, “week”?

>> “First of the Sabbaths” means the first 7th day sabbath during the count of the Omer...<<

I’d like to see a citation for that, because the phrase “mia ton Sabbaton” (or any variation) does NOT exist in the Greek Old Testament.

>> ... which begins on the 16th Nisan, the day after the “High Sabbath” of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (15th Nisan). <<

In fact, it’s the SEVENTH day after the Feast of the unleavened bread which is called a Sabbath: “On the seventh day is a holy convocation {Sabbath}; you shall not do any laborious work.” Of course, that Sabbath actually IS a Saturday.

And your translation makes ahash out of 1 Cor 16:2, since it would be something which takes place only once per year.

And if you reject the notion that Sabbath often means week, how do you explain Luke 18:12? “I fast twice every Saturday”??? What, he fasts between breakfast and lunch, and then between lunch and dinner?

And why would Mark 16:1 say, “When the Sabbath was over?”


45 posted on 06/11/2008 7:34:27 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Harrymehome

According to this calendar translator...
http://www.abdicate.net/cal.aspx

Herod died in 4BC
According to Daniel 9, Messiah would arrive 483 after Xerxes declaration, resulting in ~26AD, and He preached for three and one half years...~29AD.

15th of Nisan in 30AD, Jewish Calendar 3790, (and also in 26AD, Jewish year 3787, though this follows prophetic dates less accurately, according to Daniel 9) was on a Thursday!

That would have been a special “High” Sabbath, beginning on Wednesday evening ant sunset.
Then the following Saturday would have been another Sabbath.

Hence the translation of Matthew 28:1 as plural Sabbaths is very likely and points to a probable Wednesday crucifixion.

Hmmm...revising my thinking here~

Wednesday is the day of preparation and Crucifixion.

Christ in the earth Wednesday before Sunset.
Factoring that the Jewish day begins and ends with the sunset...

Dusk Wednesday to dawn Thursday is the first full night.
Dawn Thursday to dusk Thursday is the first full day.

Dusk Thursday to dawn Friday is the second full night.
Dawn Friday to dusk Friday is the second fullday.

Dusk Friday to dawn Saturday.is the third full night.
Dawn Saturday to dusk Saturday is the third full day.

Some time after dusk Saturday and before dawn Sunday, He is risen.

That math works!

So if we count a partial day as a “day” then a Thursday crucifixion is possible, though there are no “high” sabbaths on Fridays on or around Jewish year 3789.

If the translation requires a day or night to be a “full” day/night, then the Wednesday crucifixion absolutely fits for either
14Nisan 3787, or Wednesday April 7, 27AD (resurrection on 18 Nisan 3787, or April 11, 30AD)

14 Nisan, 3790, or Wednesday April 3, 30AD (resurrection on 18 Nisan, 30AD April 7, 30AD)

What a blessing this thread has been for me.
..and I hope, to ohters as well.


46 posted on 06/11/2008 7:51:42 AM PDT by woollyone (100 rounds per week totals 5000 rounds in a year. Just thought you'd want to know.)
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To: dangus

But the NEW TESTAMENT Peshitta is a back-translation that’s centuries older than the OT Peshitta.

(of course, I meant to say it’s centuries newer.)


47 posted on 06/11/2008 7:54:41 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

I am not an ignorant fool, first of all, I just want you to know that. I will protect my children and family above all. When All I heard in while I was in the prophecy seminar was Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and God has his children in all congregations. I asked my kids every night afterwards what they learned, and it was all Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. I personally know my coworker and his wife. They are not cultists. His wife led the childrens portion. If I felt at all that my wife and I or my children were being subjected to any funny business, we would have been out of there in a heart beat. Trust me.


48 posted on 06/11/2008 9:32:35 AM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: jkl1122

Without getting into a huge debate or discussion, yes we are no longer judged solely by the law. Old Testiment Saints were saved by thier sincere belief that God would send a Saviour, they did not keep the law perfectly, they couldn’t.
Christ did not abolish the law. The law is still held up to us as a mirror pointing out our sins. We must do our best to obey Gods law. We are free because of Christs sacrifice. I would like to see 1 passage that tells us to ignore the law, don’t worry about it, do what you want, it’s no longer in effect. Christ told us be perfect, as God is perfect.


49 posted on 06/11/2008 10:00:04 AM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: vpintheak

Oh, please don’t think I regard you as a fool. It’s infinitely difficult ensuring your children’s salvation; when it happens, it’s a miracle given by God.

But there’s a nasty ctach: If SDA teaches that Sunday worship is pagan, then either one of two things are true:

1. It doesn’t matter, in which case what other pagan-y things are acceptable?
2. It matters, in which case real Christianity condemns most everyone I know, so maybe real Christianity is false.


50 posted on 06/11/2008 10:04:25 AM PDT by dangus
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