Mr Berlusconi (right) himself is divorced and married a second time
Posted on 06/23/2008 9:48:46 AM PDT by NYer
The Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's hopes of seeing communion extended to divorcees like himself have been quashed by Pope Benedict XVI.
Newspapers reported on Sunday that while attending a ceremony in Sardinia Mr Berlusconi had asked a bishop when the Church planned to change the rules.
But the Pope told a conference in Canada that communion can only be received by those free of major sin.
"We have to do everything... to receive [communion] in a pure heart," he said.
No change
Mr Berlusconi has recently begun a major effort to try and get communion granted to divorced and remarried people like himself.
When he light-heartedly asked the Sardinian bishop when this would be possible, he was told he should "turn to a higher power".
But speaking via videolink to a conference in the Canadian province of Quebec, Pope Benedict ruled out any change to the Church's stance.
Although he did not directly address Mr Berlusconi's comments, he said that communion involved "searching without end, through the sacrament of forgiveness, the purity that sin has stained".
"On the other hand, those who cannot take communion because of their situation will find, nevertheless, in the desire to participate in the Eucharist, strength and effect of salvation," he added.
Oh sure ... lobby the Catholic Church.
What about the Kennedys?
What about Giuliani?
What about a host of American left-wing politicians who are divorced and openly support abortion?
He was married to his first wife for twenty years.
While he was married to her, he took an actress for a mistress and fathered two children by her while he was still married to his wife.
Then he divorced his wife and lived with the actress for five years before deciding to marry her civilly to legitmize his now three bastard children with her.
He is a textbook example of a divorced person who should never be allowed back into communion.
He left his wife out of sheer lust and nothing else.
When Giluliani received communion at the Papal mass, the only complaints were about his supporting abortion. His multiple divorces wasn’t even brought up. If the Church began publicly denying the sacraments to those who politicians who merely divorced and remarried I think you would see quite a backlash.
What ABOUT them? You haven't specified what you would like to know.
Mark 10:11-12
11. And he saith to them: Whosoever shall put away his wife and marry another committeth adultery against her. 12. And if the wife shall put away her husband and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
He'll have to go to a higher authority to get that changed.
I’m finally getting anulled.
Mi scusa, Silvio, ma ho detto che Kerry, Kennedy, et al non riceve communione, anche tu..
A backlash against who?
The Church itself. Divorce is considered perfectly acceptable in this country, far more so than abortion. If Rudy wasn’t pro-choice then he could take communion a dozen times a week and the local Church heirarchy wouldn’t say a thing.
The Pope has not met with nor talked to Berlusconi nor has he addressed Berlusconi's specific situation. Neither has he celebrated a Mass at which Berlusconi presented himself for Communion only to be denied.
The Pope has not, in fact, denied Berlusconi anything!!
Berlusconi himself chose to live in opposition to Catholic doctrine and he now wishes the Church to change its teaching. Only in a totally self-centered view of the universe can this be considered "denial" of Communion.
Romans 8:1: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
“But the Pope told a conference in Canada that communion can only be received by those free of major sin.”
All sin is equal except denying the Holy Spirit. If you deny for divorce then you need to deny for lying, cheating, murder, gluttony, adultery, and pride etc... If that was the case I doubt anyone but the Pope maybe allowed to receive communion.
I agree in standing against sin as defined in the Bible and admonishing those committing it, but to punish someone for something they have been forgiven for seems overstepping one’s bounds. Bible says if you cannot forgive ( like God ) then you are not forgiven.
is Berlusconi the dude that has appointed some hot babes to his cabinet?
At least — anyway, as far as I can tell from the article — he’s not presenting himself for Communion! Which puts him head and shoulders above those politicians who flout Church law and march right up, IMO!
The Church doesn’t deny Communion for divorce as such, but for remarriage after divorce, which amounts to a public commitment to continuing to live in sin. I can’t think of a close analogy — maybe a murderer who works for Murder, Inc. and plans to continue to do so, or a liar who runs for public office . . . well, okay, that one was a bit of a joke . . .
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."
So by some of these responses, we are to belive that as long as someone claims to be a Christian he can cheat on as many wives as he can collect or every wife he collects? The same goes for wives collecting husbands. Interesting.
wow
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
If you read Romans, you’ll know. :)
We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Do you think it means that, since Berlusconi was baptized, he can leave one wife for another woman and it doesn't count as sin against him? Or does it mean, how can he do such a thing, since he has "died to sin"?
Or maybe you're thinking it applies to the bishop he talked to? Or the Pope? How is the Pope to understand it vis à vis the Gospel strictures against divorce?
Seriously, how do you personallty apply it here?
Read Romans and we’ll talk about it.
In other words, you have no idea what you meant, if anything . . . ok . . .
Not at all. I think Berlusconi's a dirtball for leaving his wife. I was simply taken aback by the papal statement that those in "major" sin could not receive communion, because the Bible states that there is no condemnation for those in Christ. I have so many questions about that statement that I don't even know where to start.
What about Giuliani?
What about a host of American left-wing politicians who are divorced and openly support abortion?
If they don't amend their ways in this life, then they will for it in the next.
God is merciful, but He is also just.
I still do not think this church sacrament is done right. Every time some one walks up to have communion and they have had an abortion ( allowed/facilitated one ), openly homosexual, is full of pride, overweight because they cannot stop eating, or cheating on their spouse they should be denied as well. For someone who is a sinner ( and all are including the Pope ) to deny to someone for a specific sin and no others who are continuing to sin as well is hypocritical ( a sin as well so the Pope should not take communion either ). Nobody is eligible for communion or all are. The church needs to admonish these persons and as a last resort shun them but as long as you let them in the door they should be allowed to participate in sacraments.
I cannot find any reference where Jesus turned anyone anyway from receiving His Grace and Blessing.
For the most part, people get the benefit of the doubt — could be they’ve repented and confessed and are doing their best to amend their lives. Public sin flaunted in the papers pretty much rules out that possibility.
I will go out on a limb here and say I do not believe the RCC is correct in its implementation of communion. As the last supper when Christ was breaking bread and performing the first communion He knew well what was in the hearts of the apostles and what sins they would commit ( specifically Peter and Judas but other as well through out their lives ) and He did not exclude anyone. It is arrogance that man thinks he can omit someone for sin where he himself is sinful.
If you want to get all into continuing state of sin then think about the lies or cheating someone does against someone. They receive forgiveness but their sin still has lasting ramifications sometimes for years so their sin still exists. It is the same premise applied to divorced persons who remarry why not apply it to liars, cheaters, grifters, molesters et. al. No sin is greater than any other lest one.
Hypocrisy and control is why.
That's generally true, but some choose to live as brother and sister, as a permanent commitment, and when demonstrated over a lengthy period of time Communion can then be granted.
You mean like open abortion advocates, adulterers that have open affairs ( like the countless celebs ) or live together, business people who get caught cheating on taxes/investments etc... When was the last time one of those persons was denied communion?
Denial is a convenient way for the Church to make a political statement against one person since I have yet to see a whole “classification” of people who are openly sinning denied.
They generally stay away from dioceses with bishops who are inclined to enforce Church teaching. Sadly, some don’t — but they’re mostly nearing retirement age.
The majority of the progressive(so-called)/liberal agenda involves the effort to make sin not sin.
Berlusconi should worry only about the Lord’s communion, not the pope’s. The Lord has never denied those that are repentant, and that is all Berlusconi should be concerned with.
“I have yet to see a whole “classification” of people who are openly sinning denied.”
The rainbow sash contingent is always denied communion as they parade in their sashes to the altar on Pentecost.
“I have yet to see a whole “classification” of people who are openly sinning denied.”
The rainbow sash contingent is always denied communion as they parade in their sashes to the altar on Pentecost.
FYI
“Rainbow Sash Member to Disrupt Masses Across United States, Again
By John Jalsevac
CHICAGO, May 24, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Rainbow Sash Movement (RSM), the group of homosexual activists that self-describes itself as “Catholic” despite its open stance against significant moral teachings of the Church, announced today that they will again be “challenging the Catholic Church’s hierarchy” this upcoming Pentecost Sunday, May 27.”
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/may/07052507.html
Here’s another one:
“Bishop Leo T. Maher of the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Diego, CA, issued an order denying communion to Catholics who were “members of pro-abortion groups such as the National Organization for Women.” The pastoral letter, which was read or distributed at every Mass in the 512,000-member diocese the following Sunday, singled NOW out for its “shameless agitation” in favor of abortion and stated NOW members were not to receive the sacraments. (04/08/75)
About 350 persons attended a demonstration to protest an order by San Diego Roman Catholic Bishop Leo Maher denying communion to Catholic members of NOW who advocate abortion. At least a dozen San Diego NOW women wearing conspicuous NOW buttons were denied Communion at St. Brigid’s Church in Pacific Beach CA, site of the demonstration, after they told the parish priest they did not support the church’s anti-abortion views. Other demonstrations included pickets from the Pro-Abortion League in front of St. Joseph’s Cathedral in downtown San Diego, and 50 pickets from Women in Law demonstrating in front of the University of San Diego’s Immaculata Chapel.”
http://feminist.org/research/chronicles/fc1975.html
In Catholic doctrine there are two types of sins - venial and mortal. The Pope was speaking of one who has committed a mortal sin and not gone to confession. That person would be in a state of mortal sin. One who has gone to confession and has had their confessed sins forgiven, has received actual sanctifying grace and is in a state of grace. They will remain in a state of grace (and able to receive Holy Communion) until they commit a mortal sin.
To receive Holy Communion while not in a state of grace (a state of mortal sin) is a sacrilege as well as a mortal sin. So, those CINO politicians who think they are getting away with receiving Holy Communion while thumbing their noses at the Church's teachings are really heaping burning coals upon themselves.
That’s a good start but do they have the guts to deny to couples living together, spouses who cheat, people who routinely take the Lord’s name in vain, or persons convicted of immoral crimes. My guess would be no since that would cancel out most of the saints as it would in any church.
So if you divorce and after a few years remarry ( and have kids ) and go to confession are you absolved? Does the church encourage those spouses to abandon the new spouse and children even after being forgiven? Two wrongs do not make a right.
Technically by the church’s doctrine one could divorce and remarry then go to confession and ask for forgiveness and be absolved and as long as they do not consummate their marriage before the next communion can partake of communion and then go home and have relations and start the cycle over again.
“That’s a good start but do they have the guts to deny to couples living together, spouses who cheat, people who routinely take the Lord’s name in vain, or persons convicted of immoral crimes. My guess would be no since that would cancel out most of the saints as it would in any church.”
You seem to think that the priests have some superior knowledge and insight and frankly, psychic ability, to see into the minds, lives and habits of parishoners. We have over 700 families and I have no idea who is openly sinning. There is a sister parish with 2000. I’m very active in the church laity.
We do not discuss others. I do not gossip, nor would I tolerate it from others as they would not tolerate it from me.
If one confesses and amends their life, that is their matter. Our view of communion is of partaking the Body and Blood of Christ. By being in mortal sin, and taking the Host, one brings down sacrilige upon himself. It is that person’s responsibility. We hope all things in Charity.
I have only seen communion denied to one person and I have no idea why nor would I ask.
Each person has the personal responsibility to look inside himself and examine his conscience. That’s rigorous.
If I were you, and I am not, but using you as an example, I would begin by asking myself why I am posting. Is it because I wish to know something? Is it because I am trying to make something clear? Am I trying to discuss or am I trying to foment? Do I want an answer or do I just want to stir the pot? And so on.
That would be an example of examining my conscience. It is very rigorous. It is once again being taught and hopefully, our new generations will do better than us.
Read the papers? See who is divorcing for what reasons. There are ways, but the church is selective on what they are willing to enforce so they do not offend too many parishoners. The affairs over the years that affected our church were well known and clergy turned a blind eye as did most members.
Actually no. I don’t. I don’t read Obits either. Or the social registers.
Are or were you Catholic?
Not if your first marriage was a valid sacramental marriage. My reply to Terabittten was a general overview and did not address the complex issues of the sacrament of marriage. If your first marriage was invalid, then you could have received an annulment and remarried with the Church's blessing and be receiving Holy Communion when you are in a state of grace. However, if your first marriage was valid and you divorce and remarry you are prohibited from receiving Holy Communion (because you are committing adultery which is a mortal sin).
Does the church encourage those spouses to abandon the new spouse and children even after being forgiven?
Of course, NOT.
I cannot find any reference where Jesus turned anyone anyway from receiving His Grace and Blessing.
For Catholics
From the USCCB:
As Catholics, we fully participate in the celebration of the Eucharist when we receive Holy Communion. We are encouraged to receive Communion devoutly and frequently. In order to be properly disposed to receive Communion, participants should not be conscious of grave sin and normally should have fasted for one hour. A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord without prior sacramental confession except for a grave reason where there is no opportunity for confession. In this case, the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible (canon 916). A frequent reception of the Sacrament of Penance is encouraged for all.
In other words, the Church agrees with you. As does St. Paul:
1Cr 11:27-29 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
Where people get up in arms, including this case, is because the individuals involved are public figures with public lives. What might be a private sin if one of us does so is a public scandal when done by one in the public eye.
The Church’s stance is that he is committing adultry by divorcing and remarrying in the civil venue.
We Catholics have a different view of things. Sounds like you're suggesting that he leave Catholicism over it.
Tell me, if he is repentant - doesn't that mean more than 'sorry'? Doesn't it mean changing the situation? If I steal your wallet, then I say I'm sorry, am I repentant? If I don't rectify the situation by returning wallet and money, I would say no.
No need to agree with the Catholic view of things obviously, but you are muddying the water.
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