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Beginning Catholic: Church Authority In Scripture [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic ^ | not given | Beginning Catholic.com

Posted on 06/23/2008 7:01:31 PM PDT by Salvation

 

Church Authority In Scripture

The source & nature of Church authority is one of the major issues that beginning Catholics have to examine and come to terms with.

The Catholic Church makes an amazing claim: it teaches, governs, and sanctifies with the authority of Christ himself.

Catholics believe that this gift of Church authority is one of the jewels that Christ has given to us as an aid to our salvation.

Keep three things in mind:

After briefly stating the Church's teaching on this subject, we'll look at some of the major Scriptural sources for this doctrine.

Catholic Church authority in brief

Christ himself is the source of the Church's authority.

The New Testament shows that Christ deliberately created his Church to be the vehicle of his continuing mission in the world. He promised to remain present in his Church for all time, and he lovingly guides it through the presence of the Holy Spirit.

To ensure the success of this mission, Christ gave his Church the ability to teach, govern and sanctify with Christ's own authority. The Apostles appointed successors to ensure that the Gospel would continue to be handed on faithfully as "the lasting source of all life for the Church" (Vatican II, "Lumen Gentium" 20; also Catechism #860).

The source and guarantee of this Church authority is Christ's continuing presence in his Church — "Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Mt 28:20).

The purpose of this authority is to give the Church the ability to teach without error about the essentials of salvation: "On this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18).

The scope of this authority concerns the official teachings of the Church on matters of faith, morals, and worship (liturgy & sacraments). We believe that, because of Christ's continued presence and guarantee, his Church cannot lead people astray with its official teachings (which are distinct from the individual failings and opinions of its members, priests, bishops, and Popes).

Church authority in Scripture

The New Testament bears witness in numerous places to the fact of Church authority. It clearly shows that Christ gave his Apostles his own authority to continue his mission.

(Remember that Catholics view the Bible as one of two definitive witnesses to divine Revelation. Christ taught many other things to the Apostles that are not recorded in Scripture; we call this Catholic Tradition, literally meaning "that which is handed on". Tradition is the full, living faith of the Apostles as received from Christ.)

Here are some of the more important Scriptural references that address Church authority.

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." (Mt 28:18-20)

This brief passage contains several critical points about Church authority:
  • Jesus tells the Apostles that the authority he is giving them derives from his own, divine authority. ("All authority..." / "Go therefore".)
  • The Apostles' authority and mission comes directly from Christ himself.
  • The nature of this mission is to lead or govern ("make disciples"), sanctify ("baptizing them"), and teach ("teaching them to observe").
  • Christ promises to remain present with them always in support of this mission ("I am with you always").

Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, even so I send you." (Jn 20:21)

In this passage, Jesus commissions the Apostles with continuing his own mission. Again, this mission has its source in the divine authority of the Father. (CCC 859)

"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me." (Mt 10:40)
And:
"He who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me." (Lk 10:16)

Here, Christ explicitly identifies himself with the Apostles: this identification is so complete that accepting or rejecting the Apostles is the same as accepting or rejecting Christ.

What's more, both passages compare the union between Christ and his Apostles to that of the Son and the Father within the Holy Trinity.

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." (Mt 16:18-19)

This is a key passage for understanding the Catholic doctrine of Church authority:

The Acts of the Apostles (a New Testament book) provides abundant evidence of how Church authority was practiced during the Apostolic age (during the lives of the Apostles themselves, after the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ).

In Acts, we see repeated examples of the Apostles teaching, governing, and sanctifying (baptizing and confirming, as well as "breaking the bread").

One of the most striking passages in Acts tells how the Apostles describe their decision about whether pagan converts should submit to the Jewish laws of circumcision. They say, "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" that those laws of the Old Covenant should not apply (Acts 15:28). This passage shows:

This passage in Acts would be meaningless, even blasphemous, if the Apostles did not in fact possess the authority of Christ, supported and guided by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Finally, the various Epistles in the New Testament (the letters of Paul, Peter, etc.) likewise give many examples of the Apostles exercising their teaching and governing offices. In fact, those letters only exist because the Apostles knew that it was their role to teach and lead the various local churches!

The nature & scope of Church authority

It is important to repeat that this authority exists so that Christ can continue to guide his Church in the continuing work of salvation. Church authority is entirely at the service of that work.

We believe that Christ desired the Church to have this authority so that we could be sure of essential matters of the Faith.

The scope of this authority is limited to things that are essential to our salvation: faith, morals, and worship (the sacraments and liturgy). Additionally, since the Church's authority is at the service of Christ's gift of divine Revelation, the Church takes care to show how its declarations about faith and morals are consistent with that Revelation (Scripture and Tradition).

It's important to see this authority as something other than a simplistic being able to "boss you around." Actually, most Catholics experience Church authority in the form of straightforward declarations regarding faith & morals:

You always retain the freedom to decide whether or not to remain in the Faith by following those teachings.

(In the Gospels, there are many cases where people hear Christ but evidently decide not to follow him. By definition, his disciples are those who seek to follow him closely and learn from him. Even when it's hard. Catholics see the Church as continuing in Christ's role of teaching the truth: "He who hears you hears me.")

Why do Protestants reject this claim?

Non-Catholics usually base their rejection of Church authority on the common misconception of "misplaced worship": it is claimed that Catholics worship the Church instead of God.

Opponents of this authority sometimes also accuse the Catholic Church of claiming power that is only proper to God.

Catholics believe that this criticism is mistaken.

The best argument for the Catholic doctrine of Church authority comes from the New Testament itself: the Acts of the Apostles reveals the Church's self-image as a body at the service of Christ's saving Gospel, acting in the ways and structures taught to them by Christ himself. The Apostles are keenly aware of the authority that has been given to them by Christ, and of their own need to remain ever faithful to Christ as they exercise that authority.

Additionally, this same Church authority is the only thing that guarantees the accuracy and inerrancy of the Bible itself. It was the Church that selected the books of New Testament and defined the canon of the Bible. Those who believe that the Bible is reliable, are in fact relying on the Church's testimony that the New Testament books accurately reflect the faith & teachings of the Apostles, which is in turn grounded in the faith & teachings of Christ.

(There were many other writings available that were not selected to be a part of the Bible because their contents were flawed in some way. The Church itself made the selection many years after the death of the Apostles, based on its living witness to the Faith, guaranteed by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.)


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicchurch; catholiclist
For your information and discussion.

Ecumenical thread................antagonism towards other professions not permitted.

1 posted on 06/23/2008 7:01:32 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: All

Further Reading

The Acts of the Apostles (New Testament), especially chapters 1 - 15.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church covers this topic in a large section on the Church. See especially sections 748-769, 811-812, and 857-896.

There is an excellent and accessible discussion of this issue in Leo Trese's book, The Faith Explained. (This topic is addressed throughout the two chapters about the Church.)

The article "Church: Nature, Origin, and Structure of" in Our Sunday Visitor's Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine is another good, though brief, treatment of the subject.

The Second Vatican Council addressed this in Chapter III of its 1964 document Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (also known by its Latin title, "Lumen Gentium"). You can get a hardcopy book of the Vatican II documents, or you can read it online on the Vatican website.


2 posted on 06/23/2008 7:01:55 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All
Beginning Catholic: The Catholic Church's Origin [Ecumenical]

Beginning Catholic: Church Authority In Scripture [Ecumenical]

3 posted on 06/23/2008 7:04:12 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: nickcarraway; sandyeggo; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; RobbyS; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

4 posted on 06/23/2008 7:06:29 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Thank you for your concise postings. It helps me a lot.


5 posted on 06/23/2008 7:12:17 PM PDT by Ravens70
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To: Salvation

This is 100% Correct! I just Don’t get how a Man made or a self made Religion could Ignore Christ Church he founded and will never let Fail! always a myriad of relative excuses of why Jesus Christ Church is wrong!!


6 posted on 06/23/2008 7:12:24 PM PDT by philly-d-kidder (Kuwait where the Weather is over a 120 F and we don't sweat it!! It's the sand we are afraid off!)
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To: Ravens70

Glad it helped you Ravens70!


7 posted on 06/23/2008 9:01:19 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: philly-d-kidder

But you and I and many others know that Jesus Christ was NOT wrong!


8 posted on 06/23/2008 9:02:37 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Yes...


9 posted on 06/23/2008 9:13:11 PM PDT by philly-d-kidder (Kuwait where the Weather is over a 120 F and we don't sweat it!! It's the sand we are afraid off!)
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To: Salvation
But you and I and many others know that Jesus Christ was NOT wrong!

We all know that Jesus is never wrong...But many of us know that the Catholic church generally is...

For example; Paul and Peter would never have been in Rome together...Paul is very clear that one of the rules is that one Apostle will not preach nor teach where another Apostle has staked out his claim...Paul and Peter were NOT both in Rome...

So either the Holy Scripture is wrong, or the Catholic church is wrong...And that's an easy one to figure out...

10 posted on 06/24/2008 6:49:39 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool; Salvation
We all know that Jesus is never wrong...But many of us know that the Catholic church generally is...

I completely agree with that statement. Especially having looked from the inside of the man-made institution itself.

11 posted on 06/24/2008 7:30:33 AM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: T Minus Four; Iscool
On This Rock
 
WAS ST. PETER IN ROME?
 
St. Peter and Rome
 
Did the Apostle Peter Ever Visit Rome?
 
Occasionally Naive and Fearful, Yet Honest and Capable of Repentance (Profile of St. Peter)
 
Saint Peter As Seen by His Successor (extraordinary document from B16 on his preaching and papacy)
 
HOMILIES PREACHED BY FATHER ALTIER ON THE FEAST OF SAINTS PETER AND PAUL
 
Peter, Witness of the Resurrection (Papal preparations for Easter 2006)
 
The Fraternal Society of St. Peter on EWTN
 
Saint Peter and the Vatican, the Legacy of the Popes
 
Saint Peter and The Vatican - Legacy of the Popes

12 posted on 06/24/2008 8:17:19 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: T Minus Four

The Catholic Church will welcome you back at any time. Come and talk with a priest.


13 posted on 06/24/2008 8:19:05 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

No thank you, I need no mediator between me and God except Jesus. I go straight to Him.


14 posted on 06/24/2008 8:46:54 AM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: T Minus Four

I will pray for you.


15 posted on 06/24/2008 9:10:49 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: T Minus Four

Exactly what has you so teed off at the Catholic Church?

Just curious.


16 posted on 06/24/2008 9:11:33 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Of course we all realize the Catholic church has reams and reams of information they have written and printed to convince you guys that Peter and Paul were both in Rome...

But the Apostle Paul says that he never went where another Apostle set up house...

So are you going to believe the Catholic church??? Or are you going to believe the Scripture; the Apostle Paul???

It’s as simple as that...


17 posted on 06/24/2008 9:20:38 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Salvation

What makes you think I’m teed off?


18 posted on 06/24/2008 9:21:01 AM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: Salvation

Why?


19 posted on 06/24/2008 9:21:41 AM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: Iscool

As to your claim that Saint Paul would never have gone to Rome, in keeping with his conviction to preach the Gospel where no one had ever been before: 1. His initial intention to go to Rome, as stated very clearly in Romans 15, was to use it as a way-station in preparation for a missionizing trip to Spain (probably the east coast of Spain); yet, even in the context of this purpose, Paul states in Romans 1 that he still had a divine calling to preach to the Christians in Rome there, too. 2. The next time(s) Paul was in Rome was not of his own volition. He was arrested and held in Rome for a while awaiting a hearing and/or execution.


20 posted on 06/24/2008 10:04:53 AM PDT by Remole
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To: Iscool

Not everything was written in Scripture.

What was Paul doing in Tarsus between 39AD and 43AD. Is it written what Paul did during those years? He is in Jerusalem and then gone for half a decade.

“Clement of Rome:

“But, to leave the examples of antiquity, let us come to the athletes who are closest to our own time. Consider the noble examples of our own generation. Through jealousy and envy, the greatest and most righteous pillars were persecuted, and they persevered even to death. Let us set before our eyes the good apostles: Peter, who through unwarranted jealousy suffered not one or two but many toils, and having thus given testimony went to the place of glory that was his due” (Epistle to the Corinthians, 5:1 [ca. A.D. 80 or 96]).


Ignatius:

“Not as Peter and Paul did, do I command you. They were apostles, and I am a convict” (Epistle to the Romans, 4:3 [A.D. 110]).


“Irenaeus

“Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church” (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 189]).

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3, 3, 2).

“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. ... To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us” (ibid., 3, 3, 3).

Irenaeus:

“Since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the [local] churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles” (Against Heresies, 3, 3:2 [A.D. 180]).


Irenaeus:

“Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church” (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1 [A.D. 180]).


Gaius:

“It is recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and Peter, likewise, was crucified, during the reign [of the Emperor Nero]. The account is confirmed by the names of Peter and Paul over the cemeteries there, which remain to the present time. And it is confirmed also by a stalwart man of the Church, Gaius by name, who lived in the time of Zephyrinus, Bishop of Rome. This Gaius, in a written disputation with Proclus, the leader of the sect of Cata-phrygians, says this of the places in which the remains of the aforementioned apostles were deposited: ‘I can point out the trophies of the apostles. For if you are willing to go to the Vatican or to the Ostian Way, you will find the trophies of those who founded this Church’” (Disputation with Proclus [A.D. 198] in a fragment from Eusebius, History of the Church, 2, 25:5).


21 posted on 06/24/2008 10:12:16 AM PDT by OpusatFR (Oh my! Disagreeing is now snide and a personal attack. How Obambi!)
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To: andysandmikesmom; Antoninus; ArrogantBustard; celticfreedom; CTK YKC; dan1123; DaveMSmith; ...
If you want to be on the Catholic Theology for non-Catholics list but are not on it already, or if you are on it but do not want to be, let me know either publicly or privately.

Previously posted:

On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church
The Great Heresies
SALVATION PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING
Hermits and Solitaries [Ecumenical]
THE PRIESTHOOD DEBATE
RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT
A Well-Rounded Pope [Ecumenical]
A Monastery to Last 1,000 Years [Ecumenical]
Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
In the Crosshairs of the Canon [How We Got The Bible] [Ecumenical]
'An Ordinance Forever' - The Biblical Origins of the Mass [Ecumenical]

22 posted on 06/24/2008 11:05:14 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Iscool
one of the rules is that one Apostle will not preach nor teach where another Apostle has staked out his claim...Paul and Peter were NOT both in Rome...

They were together in Antioch:

Cephas was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face (Gal 2:11)

either the Holy Scripture is wrong, or the Catholic church is wrong

The Catholic church is who gave you the scripture in the first place, so if one thinks one contradicts the other he needs to have his own comprehension of the scripture questioned.

23 posted on 06/24/2008 11:10:37 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Thanks for the thoughtfulness of your ping.

No thanks for my participation in such a thread.


24 posted on 06/24/2008 1:14:01 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: annalex
Cephas was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face (Gal 2:11)

He certainly did...Where Paul proceeded to set Peter on the correct path, NOT to preach and build upon another man's foundation...

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

The Catholic church is who gave you the scripture in the first place, so if one thinks one contradicts the other he needs to have his own comprehension of the scripture questioned.

Nope...God gave us the scripture...And He preserved it so all future generations would know what he had to say, in spite of the Catholic church...

God says Paul wouldn't go where another Apostle built a foundation but your church says he would, and you say I don't comprehend the scripture...

I'm thinking with such 'plain' speech in the scripture, the motive and honesty of the Catholic church might need to be examined...

25 posted on 06/24/2008 4:06:46 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Gal 2:11

But when Cephas, &c.[1]

In most Greek copies, we read Petrus, both here and ver. 13. Nor are there any sufficient, nor even probable grounds to judge, that Cephas here mentioned was different from Peter, the prince of the apostles, as one or two later authors would make us believe. Among those who fancied Cephas different from Peter, not one can be named in the first ages [centuries], except Clemens of Alexandria, whose works were rejected as apochryphal by Pope Gelasius. The next author is Dorotheus of Tyre, in his Catalogue of the seventy-two disciples, in the fourth or fifth age [century], and after him the like, or same catalogue, in the seventh age [century], in the Chronicle, called of Alexandria, neither of which are of any authority with the learned, so many evident faults and falsehoods being found in both. St. Jerome indeed on this place says, there were some (though he does not think fit to name them) who were of that opinion; but at the same time St. Jerome ridicules and rejects it as groundless.

Now as to authors that make Cephas the same with St. Peter, the prince of the apostles, we have what may be called the unexceptionable and unanimous consent of the ancient fathers and doctors of the Catholic Church, as of Tertullian, who calls this management of St. Peter, a fault of conversation, not of preaching or doctrine.

Of St. Cyprian, of Origen, of Alexander, of Theodoret, Pope Gelasius, Pelagius the second, St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas. In later ages, of Bellarmine, Baronius, Binius, Spondan, of Salmeron, Estius, Gagneius, Tirinus, Menochius, Alex natalis, and a great many more: so that Cornelius a Lapide on this place says, that the Church neither knows, nor celebrates any other Cephas but St. Peter. Tertullian and most interpreters take notice, that St. Peter's fault was only a lesser or venial sin in his conduct and conversation.

Did not St. Paul on several occasions do the like, as what is here laid to St. Peter's charge? that is, practise the Jewish ceremonies: did not he circumcise Timothy after this, an. 52 [in the year A.D. 52]? did he not shave his head in Cenchrea, an. 54? did he not by the advice of St. James (an. 58.) purify himself with the Jews in the temple, not to offend them?

St. Jerome, and also St. John Chrysostom,[2] give another exposition of this passage. They looked upon all this to have been done by a contrivance and a collusion betwixt these two apostles, who had agreed beforehand that St. Peter should let himself be reprehended by St. Paul, (for this they take to be signified by the Greek text) and not that St. Peter was reprehensible;[3] so that the Jews seeing St. Peter publicly blamed, and not justifying himself, might for the future eat with the Gentiles.

But St. Augustine vigorously opposed this exposition of St. Jerome, as less consistent with a Christian and apostolical sincerity, and with the text in this chapter, where it is called a dissimulation, and that Cephas or Peter walked not uprightly to the truth of the gospel. After a long dispute betwixt these two doctors, St. Jerome seems to have retracted his opinion, and the opinion of St. Augustine is commonly followed, that St. Peter was guilty of a venial fault of imprudence.

In the mean time, no Catholic denies but that the head of the Church may be guilty even of great sins. What we have to admire, is the humility of St. Peter on this occasion, as St. Cyprian observes,[4] who took the reprehension so mildly, without alleging the primacy, which our Lord had given him.

Baronius held that St. Peter did not sin at all, which may be true, if we look upon his intention only, which was to give no offence to the Jewish converts; but if we examine the fact, he can scarce be excused from a venial indiscretion. (Witham)


I withstood, &c. The fault that is here noted in the conduct of St. Peter, was only a certain imprudence, in withdrawing himself from the table of the Gentiles, for fear of giving offence to the Jewish converts: but this in such circumstances, when his so doing might be of ill consequence to the Gentiles, who might be induced thereby to think themselves obliged to conform to the Jewish way of living, to the prejudice of their Christian liberty. Neither was St. Paul's reprehending him any argument against his supremacy; for is such cases an inferior may, and sometimes ought, with respect, to admonish his superior. (Challoner)

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[BIBLIOGRAPHY]

That Peter and Cephas were the same, see Tertullian, lib. de præscrip. chap. 23, p. 210. Ed. Rig.; Origen in Joan. Ed. Græce et Latine, p. 381.; St. Cyprian, Epist. 71. ad Quintum, p. 120.; St. Jerome on this Ep. to the Galatians, as also St. John Chrysostom; St. Augustine. See his epistles on this passage to St. Jerome.; St. Gregory, lib. 2. in Ezech. tom. 1, p. 1368.; Gelasius apud Labb. T. 4. Conc. p. 1217.; Pelagius, the 2d apud Labb. t. 5. p. 622.; St. Cyril of Alexandria, hom. ix. cont. Julianum, t. 6, p. 325.; Theodoret in 2. ad Gal. iv. 3. p. 268.; St. Anselm in 2 ad Gal. p. 236.; St. Thomas Aquinas, lib. 2. q. 103. a. 4. ad 2dum.

St. Jerome's words: Sunt qui Cepham non putent Apostolum Petrum, sed alium de 70 Discipulis....quibus primum respondendum, alterius nescio cujus Cephæ nescire nos nomen, nisi ejus, qui et in Evangelio, et in aliis Pauli Epistolis, et in hac quoque ipsa, modo Cephas, modo Petrus scribitur....deinde totum argumentum Epistolæ....huic intelligentiæ repugnare, &c.

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[BIBLIOGRAPHY]

St. John Chrysostom by a contrivance, Greek: eikonomon. p. 730, &c.

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[BIBLIOGRAPHY]

Greek: Kategnosmenos may signfiy reprehensus, as well as reprehensibilis; and he says it is to be referred to others, and not to St. Paul: Greek: all upo ton allon.

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[BIBLIOGRAPHY]

St. Cyprian, Ep. ad Quintum, p. 120. Petrus....non arroganter assumpsit, ut diceret se primatum tenere, &c. ====================

26 posted on 06/24/2008 4:30:39 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool
He certainly did...

Given this admission about Antioch, whither your insistence that Paul and Peter would not be in the same place?

27 posted on 06/24/2008 4:34:06 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool
God gave us the scripture...

Yes, through His Church. The fathers of His Church wrote the New Testament, and His Church later identified the 73 books of Scripture and thus assembled the Bible.

28 posted on 06/24/2008 4:36:34 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool
God gave us the scripture

To whom and how?

29 posted on 06/24/2008 5:01:28 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

To King James circa AD 1611, of course.


30 posted on 06/24/2008 5:42:30 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Salvation
Father Smith Instructs Jackson helped me understand Catholicism as a kid.

Try your library first, but it's available from booksellers online as well.

31 posted on 06/24/2008 6:53:19 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Petronski
King James circa AD 1611

That wouldn't be half as bad as what passes for scripture translations these days, and sadly, the Catholic NAB is not much to brag about either.

32 posted on 06/24/2008 7:48:20 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Salvation

>Ecumenical thread................antagonism towards other professions not permitted.

>Why do Protestants reject this claim?

Do you not think that this right here breaks the rules for Ecumenical posts, as well as your own statement on the end?

I think you might wish to remove that tag or else no one can answer the false claims that are in the article about the Protestant rejection of the authority of Rome.

Ecumenically yours,
Otto


33 posted on 06/24/2008 7:50:00 PM PDT by Ottofire (Psalm 18:31 For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?)
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To: Ottofire; Salvation
The last part of the article contrasts beliefs. It is permitted in Ecumenical threads; it would not be permitted in a caucus thread. You can consult the Religion Moderator if you wish. I go by this statement of his:
Contrasting of beliefs or even criticisms can be made without provoking hostilities.

Religion Moderator

If you see hostility anywhere, please point it out and make a complaint to the Moderator.

34 posted on 06/24/2008 8:15:23 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Salvation

Bump for later reading.


35 posted on 06/24/2008 9:28:32 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: annalex

You won’t be catching me bragging about the NAB.


36 posted on 06/25/2008 6:13:45 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: T Minus Four; philly-d-kidder; Salvation
Amen, T-4, amen.

P-D-K & Salvation: What part of "Thou shall have no other god before Me" is so hard to understand? It doesn't say, "Come unto [the Catholic church], all you who are weary and heavy-laden; take [the Catholic church's] yoke upon you, and learn of [the Catholic church], and you shall find rest unto your soul," does it? No, Christ says come unto Me... take My yoke... learn of Me.... referring only to Himself, not ever mentioning kneeling before yet another sinner (albeit in fancy duds, pointy hat & fabulous bling living it up in way beyond 5-star Rome digs) who kneels before alters and images of humans other than Jesus Christ.

Also, in case that isn't clear enough in the New Testament, what does the Torah/Old Testament say?

Exodus 20 - The Ten Commandments (NKJV)

1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

I didn't see any Eucharist commandment in the New Testament, either - Jesus said "Do this in rememberance of Me," not "Do this or you aren't saved."

P-D-K, you posted (on another thread; unnecessary mid-sentence capitalizations left intact) this to me the other day: ... In the Catholic Catechism putting yourself above GOD is Sin... How Can people who decide for them selves or Followed Man made Religions not Put themselves above Gods Church as they Know Better? But To ignore the Eucharist is the Real Folly!

Totally waiving your ignorant and baseless slam implying (again, ignorantly!) that I "put myself above God," I would implore you, with love and respect, to prayerfully (to Jesus, not Mary or any of the other icons) consider diving into the Word of God to see if it actually supports what the Catholic church teaches. You might be able to get over the Eucharist trip. You're willing to give me unsolicited, non-scriptural reading recommendations (same thread referenced above) coupled with a major slam implying I'm basically satanic (i.e. thinking I'm above my Creator!?!?!); check the Torah and the Bible first and get back to me if you can support your "Hellbound due to lack of Eucharist" claims.
37 posted on 06/25/2008 10:26:43 PM PDT by MonicaG (Help Wanted: Conservative leadership '08)
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To: Iscool

I meant to cc: you on post 37, Iscool.


38 posted on 06/25/2008 10:28:52 PM PDT by MonicaG (Help Wanted: Conservative leadership '08)
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To: Salvation
Ecumenical thread................antagonism towards other professions not permitted.

Yeah, good luck with that.

39 posted on 06/25/2008 11:26:44 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: MonicaG; Salvation

Peter Upon this rock I build MY Church! What is so hard to understand the catholic Church was founded by Christ.

This Church is based on Sacred Scripture Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium of the Church!

Jesus did not dissolve HIS church it is still very active today as the proclaimer of TRUTH .

i would prefer to be in Communion with Christ and the Communion of Saints following a Tradition of 2000 plus years! The sacred Scriptures that are still the Source of truth. It is a shame that you Ignore the Mother of God Mary most Holy The Instrument God the father chose to receive his only Son to became Man!

It is a Shame you ignore the readings of the Doctors of the Church if you love the Bible their divine Inspiration of the Bible is Beautiful to read and learn from!

Eat My Bod and Drink my Blood and do this in rememebrance of me this is recited by the priest in every Mass everyday in every Church in the world!

more is expected of Catholics and we take up the Cross of your disbelief all the time!


40 posted on 06/26/2008 6:59:02 AM PDT by philly-d-kidder (Kuwait where the Weather is over a 120 F and we don't sweat it!! It's the sand we are afraid off!)
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To: Petronski
In the mean time, no Catholic denies but that the head of the Church may be guilty even of great sins. What we have to admire, is the humility of St. Peter on this occasion, as St. Cyprian observes,[4] who took the reprehension so mildly, without In the mean time, no Catholic denies but that the head of the Church may be guilty even of great sins. What we have to admire, is the humility of St. Peter on this occasion, as St. Cyprian observes,[4] who took the reprehension so mildly, without alleging the primacy, which our Lord had given him., which our Lord had given him.

The head of your church is no doubt a sinner...Conversely, the Head of my church never sinned, ever...

Your 'apologists' have no idea how Peter took the reprimand...It boggles my mind that your church will go to such extremes trying to defend it's theology...

St. Jerome, and also St. John Chrysostom,[2] give another exposition of this passage. They looked upon all this to have been done by a contrivance and a collusion betwixt these two apostles, who had agreed beforehand that St. Peter should let himself be reprehended by St. Paul, (for this they take to be signified by the Greek text) and not that St. Peter was reprehensible;[3] so that the Jew seeing St. Peter publicly blamed, and not justifying himself, might for the future eat with the Gentiles.

STOP...You guys are killin' me...

So Peter, God's appointed on earth to head your church says to Paul that they need put on a little deception...Ya, that's the way to lead people to Jesus...

Well I guess that's the way the Catholic church got started...

41 posted on 06/26/2008 7:34:01 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: annalex; Salvation

>If you see hostility anywhere, please point it out and make a complaint to the Moderator.

Nah, I prefer to deal with people directly, and not involve others unless there is no other recourse. Sorta biblical, that...We can deal with this amongst ourselves without yelling “I HAVE BEEN VICTIMIZED!”

To instantly jump to the authority is just not all that wise in my experience, for authority tends to muck things up for those of us in the trenches.

My point in this is that one should not speak of what another believes without being factual. I am sure you do not wish for me to speak for the Catholic, unless I have done my research, and did not put my Protestant biases in the statement. To place a biased statement of what a Protestant believes under the flag of truce (Ecumenicalism) is just a dagger in the back all while smiling placidly and speaking of peace. Not a thing that Christians dealing with Christians really should do.


42 posted on 06/26/2008 10:01:24 AM PDT by Ottofire (Psalm 18:31 For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God?)
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To: Iscool; MonicaG; philly-d-kidder
Posts 25, 37 and 40 are "pushing the envelope" of the guidelines for ecumenical threads.

Be careful to not antagonize other posters in the words you chose to present your arguments. And as always, do not "make it personal."

43 posted on 06/26/2008 10:41:51 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Ottofire; Salvation
So you don't see hostility. You see this statement as not factual:

Non-Catholics usually base their rejection of Church authority on the common misconception of "misplaced worship": it is claimed that Catholics worship the Church instead of God.

Opponents of this authority sometimes also accuse the Catholic Church of claiming power that is only proper to God.

I don't think this violates the ecumenical thread guidelines. I agree that this statement lacked a reference or a quote to substantiate it. I don't think you need to complain about the rules to engage the article on this level.

Do you dispute that "usually" the objection to the Church authority is of the nature described in the quoted section? Do you yourself object to the Church authority in interpreting the Scripture? What is your objection, if different from the above?

44 posted on 06/26/2008 11:19:51 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Salvation; lilyramone; crusadersoldier; Ellzeena; Anvilhead; stonehouse01; Goreknowshowtocheat; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


45 posted on 11/28/2011 5:52:47 PM PST by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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