Methinks there is a pattern developing... (Lutherans, Episcopals & Anglicans on gay ministers)

Insight Scoop ^ | June 23, 2008 | Carl Olson

[NYer]

Last week there was this news from Germany:

German Lutherans in northern Schleswig will decide on July 12 whether to elect an openly gay bishop. Conservatives have opposed Horst Gorski's candidacy, saying it would lead to divisions within the church.

When Horst Gorski, 51, first took up his archdeacon post in the northern city of Hamburg, some members of the congregation had misgivings about this homosexuality. But within a few years it was no longer an issue, Gorski said.

Gorski believes the same will be the case if he is elected the next bishop of Schleswig, a mostly rural region in Germany's north. Gorski is running against local cleric Gerhard Ulrich in an election on July 12. Both are vying to replace Bishop Hans Christian Knuth, who retires in September.

Credibility a worry for some

Launching his candidacy at St. Nicholas' Church in Kiel this week, Gorski spoke about religious values. Gorski said his most important job is to find a language that connects with people.

He did not mention his sexual preference. Gorski, founder of an organization for gay and lesbian clergy, has said he does not believe sexual orientation should be an issue.

But others disagree. Retired Lutheran pastor Dieter Mueller said that electing a gay bishop could destroy the church's credibility in the Christian world.

And then this from yesterday's San Francisco Chronicle:

Members of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) have for decades been struggling to come to a consensus about the role of gays and lesbians in the church. And they just can't make up their mind.

The church allows the blessing of same-sex unions, but defines homosexual acts as sinful and won't ordain partnered lesbian or gay candidates for priesthood. They're steadfast in opposition to same-sex marriage - but vindicate priests who preside over them, saying church-approved marriages can't exist no matter what priests do or say.

It's an often-contradictory set of beliefs that has believers on both sides unsatisfied.

Now, the church's leaders have come to the Bay Area, after a week's worth of highly publicized, state-sanctioned gay and lesbian marriages.

Meeting in a state that has legalized same-sex marriage is putting unique tension on the 2.3 million-member denomination. Those who want to extend greater rights to gays and lesbians are hoping that this week's gathering in San Jose will set the stage for change.

"Sadly enough, I think within my own denomination, the state has been a much more powerful witness than the church has," said Rev. W. Rob Martin III, pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Palo Alto, which has welcomed and blessed same-sex couples for nearly 20 years. "It's my fervent hope that with movement in civil society my denomination will catch up with that."

And, of course, there is the well-documented, ongoing struggle within the Anglican Communion, largely centered upon Gene Robinson. From today's edition of The Telegraph:

It's five years since Gene Robinson became the Anglican Church’s first gay bishop and yet the wounds appear as fresh as ever.

The American bishop has accused Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, of dehumanising gays in his refusal to endorse the appointment, while African leaders provocatively claim they risk being "enslaved" by the liberal agenda of the West.

There have been countless threats of schism, but the war of words seems to be stepping up a gear as around 250 conservative bishops meet to discuss the future of the Anglican Communion.

For them, the increasing acceptance of homosexual clergy and lifestyles in the Western Churches marks a point of no return.

They have chosen to meet in Jerusalem rather than be tarnished by association with the "apostates" as they call them, who will be meeting in Canterbury next month for the Lambeth Conference.

The Telegraph piece chastises Michael Nazir-Ali, the Anglican Bishop of Rochester, for his decision to boycott the Lambeth conference, which is, readers are informed, about "fermenting division rather than bringing healing. Rather than promoting a Church that has a message of hope and love, they seem to be reinforcing views that it has now come to stand for intolerance and bitter recrimination." In the ancient world—the 1960s!—polite society tolerated the private sins and failings of those who chose to pursue homosexual relationships. Now barely forty years later, polite society and many polite Christiansincreasingly insist we must celebrate, embrace, support, affirm, and praise those same sins and failings in the name of "tolerance" and "justice" and "love." Which brings me to an excerpt from a review by A. N. Wilson—the former Anglican turned Catholic turned Anglican turned atheist (he may have been a Buddhist at one point as well)—also in today's Telegraph:

Then I turned to Bishop Gene Robinson's In the Eye of the Storm (Canterbury Press). This is the famous Bishop of New Hampshire, who is not being asked to the Lambeth Conference for fear of upsetting the bigots. Whereas I felt that the tormented Bishop Moore's life was marked with the sign of the cross, Bishop Gene's ministry appeared to come marked with one of those smiley faces with which some soppy girls dot their i's.

Like Bishop Moore, Bishop Robinson was married with children. Like Bishop Moore, he is alcoholic. But instead of thinking that torment and concealment and self-criticism are part of life, he seems to believe that the Christian gospel means God accepting everyone as they are - with no suggestion of denying the self, and taking up the cross.

Rather than seeing the collapse of his marriage as central to the story, he raises the issue of "sexuality" to a pinnacle of importance which makes it seem ridiculous. His book is that of an advanced egomaniac. He quotes 1 John 4:18 - "Perfect love casteth out fear" - thereby unintentionally reminding us of the old joke about the person who missed out the numeral 1 in that text, giving the quote not from John's First Epistle, but from the 18th verse of the fourth chapter of the Gospel: "The man whom thou now hast is not thy husband".

I highlight Wilson's review because he is hardly a right-wing homophobic (as we know, ahem, anyone opposed to homosexual actions and lifestyles must be, or so we are told more and more often). And, for my money, he hits the nail on the head: Robinson's public actions, like many who feverishly evangelize for the sake of the gospel of homosexuality, suggest egomania. But that is, I think, the nature of all sexual sin, whether it be homosexual acts, adultery, fornication, pornography, etc. They seek love and self-fulfillment in ways that aren't ultimately loving or fulfilling in nature. And that is the bigger point so often missed in the popular discourse: opposition to homosexuality is not a matter of puritanical morality or even of just "biblical truth", but of a particular anthropology, a vision and understanding of man that is shaped and informed by reason, tradition, and divine revelation (see, for example, John Paul II's Theology of the Body). When that understanding of man is tossed out in the name of "love" and "justice," you can be certain that authentic love and justice will quickly follow.

[NYer]

Related IgnatiusInsight.com Articles, Excerpts, & Interviews:

• Human Sexuality and the Catholic Church | Donald P. Asci
• The Truth About Conscience | John F. Kippley
• Marriage and the Family in Casti Connubii and Humanae Vitae | Rev. Michael Hull, S.T.D.
• Practicing Chastity in an Unchaste Age | Bishop Joseph F. Martino
• Authentic Freedom and the Homosexual Person | Dr. Mark Lowery
• Homosexual Orientation Is Not a "Gift" | James Hitchcock
• Can I Quote You On That? Talking to the Media About Homosexuality and the Priesthood | Mark Brumley

[stefanbatory]

the more liberal of the Lutheran synods here in the USA has decided to allow it. Those of us Lutherans who still believe in Sola Scriptura have not...

[MississippiMan]

Methinks the Great Falling Away is chugging along and picking up steam daily.

I never cease to be amazed by the gullibility of people with regard to Satan. How is it that such an intelligent civilization cannot spend one hour researching the fate of prior groups/nations that have embraced hedonism in general and homosexuality in particular? It signals the end stage of a moral rot that is ALWAYS fatal to that group/nation.

And for it to be embraced by allegedly-Christian churches is the greatest abomination of all. It’s all foretold but it’s still hard to watch.

MM

[stevio]

The Devil is laughing his ass off.

[dbehsman]

I think it means that Protestantism is dying, except for the Evangelical Baptists.

Maybe it’s God’s way of thinning out the Protestant herd.

[jonno]

The American bishop has accused Dr Rowan Williams... of dehumanising gays

Dehumanising? Um, no - just holding up biblical standards. You want to sin, fine. But unless you repent you're out of the church (and certainly not to be amongst the leadership).

Nothing dehumanising about requiring purity and repentance.

[freemama]

How long do you think it will be before our faithful ministers cannot preach the Biblical truth about homosexuality without risking jail?

Sola Scriptura * Sola Gratia * Sola Fide

[kaehurowing]

It’s already happening in Canada.

[gedeon3]

1 Timothy 3:1  ¶This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3  Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7  Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

1 Timothy 4:1  ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

[gedeon3]

There are more than just baptists. The Church of God, The Assemblies of God, The Missionery Alliance, and others, who do not allow such things.

[MEGoody]

When Horst Gorski, 51, first took up his archdeacon post in the northern city of Hamburg, some members of the congregation had misgivings about this homosexuality. But within a few years it was no longer an issue, Gorski said.

That just means the congregation decided that following biblical instruction wasn't important.

If someone tried to put a homosexual in the leadership of my church, I wouldn't just have 'misgivings' about it.

[iowamark]

Horst Gorski, all ready to sing on Broadway!

Germany was having trouble,
What a sad, sad story!
Needed a new leader to restore its former glory!
Where oh where was he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around
And then we found
A man for you and me!

And now it’s…

Gorski:
Springtime for Hitler and Germany!
Deutschland is happy and gay!

Chorus:
We’re marching to a faster pace
Look out – here comes the master race!

Springtime for Hitler and Germany!

Gorski:
Winter for Poland and France!

Chorus:
Springtime for Hitler and Germany!
Now, Germans, go into your dance!

Rolf:
I was born in Düsseldorf and that is why they call me Rolf!

Mel Brooks:
Don’t be stupid, be a smarty –
Come and join the Nazi party!

(instrumental interlude)

Chorus:
Springtime for Hitler and Germany!
(gunshots)
Goose-step’s the new step today!
(gunshots, explosions)
Bombs falling from the skies again!
(bomb falling, explosion)
Deutschland is on the rise again!

Springtime for Hitler and Germany!
U-boats are sailing once more!

Springtime for Hitler and Germany!

Means that...
Soon we’ll be goin’,
We’ve got to be goin’,
You know we’ll be goin’

[lastchance]

In many places that is happening now. Read some posts about Mark Steyn and others who are facing or have faced the Canadian Tribunal “For The Glorification Of Those Wise and Benevolent Fathers Of Holy Tolerance Who Battle Against The Christian Plague” or something like that.

[stefanbatory]

it depends on how much grace is afforded to us by our LORD...

[caseinpoint]

“Nothing dehumanising about requiring purity and repentance.”

Exactly. In fact, nothing is more humanizing than urging repentance and purity. Rising above our instincts is what makes man different from all other creations. Someone once answered a challenge that man was just a higher order of animal by pointing out that animals reached the measure of their creation by following their instincts while man reached the measure of his creation by controlling his instincts.

[NYer]

How is it that such an intelligent civilization cannot spend one hour researching the fate of prior groups/nations that have embraced hedonism in general and homosexuality in particular?

They seek approbation for their lifestyle and will do whatever it takes to legalize it so as to lift the burden of guilt. Ultimately, regardless of the laws passed, their inate conscience still reminds them of their perverted lifestyle.

"Those who do not learn from history are forced to repeat it."
Santayana

I have met people who tell me that we are now living in the 21st century and should get used to this new lifestyle. New? I don't think so.

Ecclesiastes
Chapter 1

1

¹ The words of David's son, Qoheleth, king in Jerusalem:

2

² Vanity of vanities, says Qoheleth, vanity of vanities! All things are vanity!

3

³ What profit has man from all the labor which he toils at under the sun?

4

One generation passes and another comes, but the world forever stays.

5

The sun rises and the sun goes down; then it presses on to the place where it rises.

6

Blowing now toward the south, then toward the north, the wind turns again and again, resuming its rounds.

7

All rivers go to the sea, yet never does the sea become full. To the place where they go, the rivers keep on going.

8

⁴ All speech is labored; there is nothing man can say. The eye is not satisfied with seeing nor is the ear filled with hearing.

9

What has been, that will be; what has been done, that will be done. Nothing is new under the sun.

10

Even the thing of which we say, "See, this is new!" has already existed in the ages that preceded us.

11

⁵ There is no remembrance of the men of old; nor of those to come will there be any remembrance among those who come after them.

[MississippiMan]

You are of course correct, and it is of course not really a surprise to see all this unfolding, but it’s still painful and puzzling.

MM

[BnBlFlag]

I doubt that the Zion Lutheran Church in rural Central Texas will be voting for ant Gay Bishops anytime soon.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6bx3polxw

[BnBlFlag]

I doubt that the Zion Lutheran Church in rural Central Texas will be voting for ant Gay Bishops anytime soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6bx3polxw

[BnBlFlag]

http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd6bx3polxw
Hopefully this will work!

[BnBlFlag]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd6bx3polxw
Hopefully this will work!

[BnBlFlag]

Oh well, I can bring it up from my computer but for some reason, it won’t show up from the link.
What it shows is that the Zion Lutheran church in rural central Texas has a “Bluegrass Gospel” sing along every 5th Sunday. Great oldtime Gospel music!
I seriously doubt this group would go for “Gay” Bishops or any other “Gay” Clergymen for that matter.

[kaehurowing]

Criticizing homosexuality was recently criminalized in Colorado:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=67799

It will be interesting how they try to enforce that law in Colorado Springs, and whether they try to prosecute Focus on the Family and other ministries.

“Section 8. 24-34-701. Publishing of discriminative matter forbidden. No person, being the owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent, or employee of any place of public accommodation ... shall publish, issue, circulate, send, distribute, give away, or display in any way, manner, or shape or by any means or method, except as provided in this section, any communication, paper, poster, folder, manuscript, book, pamphlet, writing, print, letter, notice, or advertisement of any kind, nature, or description that is intended or calculated to discriminate or actually discriminates against ... SEXUAL ORIENTATION, marital status ... in the matter of furnishing or neglecting or refusing to furnish to them or any one of them any lodging, housing, schooling, or tuition or any accommodation, right [marriage], privilege [adoption], advantage, or convenience ... on account of ... SEXUAL ORIENTATION, marital status ... [which] is unwelcome or objectionable or not acceptable, desired, or solicited.”

[Conservativegreatgrandma]

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not allow such things.