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SSPX Update - Are "The Five Conditions" necessary and reasonable? & Five Conditions For Fellay?
Sumorum Pontificum ^ | June 25, 2008 | Brian Kopp & Patrick Archibald

Posted on 06/25/2008 9:45:41 AM PDT by NYer

Are "The Five Conditions" necessary and reasonable?

By Brian Kopp

There is much debate going on inside and outside SSPX circles over "The Five Conditions."

One may ask whether these conditions are "insulting" to the SSPX leadership, as some SSPX supporters insist that the SSPX already adheres to "The Five Conditions."

By and large, this seems to be true of Bishop Fellay, though he recently slipped a bit in this regard:
Bishop Fellay: Pope Benedict is a "perfectly liberal Pope"
Given his record of otherwise prudent and measured statements regarding Pope Benedict XVI, this gaff of Bishop Fellay could easily be overlooked, and likely did not precipitate "The Five Conditions."

On the other hand, an argument could be made that Rome is asking Bishop Fellay to rein in other SSPX leaders.

Maybe a little review is in order to ascertain why such a request might have been necessary. These two entries may serve to illustrate Rome's concern:
Excomm’d SSPX Bp. Williamson on Good Friday prayer: good points but calls Benedict XVI anti-semitic

Williamson: "...modern minds are very sick ...and Benedict XVI has a modern mind..."
Here are several interviews, each of which contain troubling assertions:
An Exclusive Interview with Bishop Richard Williamson

An Interview With His Excellency Bishop Richard Williamson


SSPX, The Church & The World: 2008 and Beyond
Finally, a review of Bishop Williamson's own blog entries may be in order. Here's a typical excerpt:
Such is surely the case with many – not all – modernist churchmen, and I would include Pope Benedict XVI amongst them. So he can be objectively insane from the standpoint of the Catholic Faith, and yet subjectively in a kind of good faith. What does this “good faith” matter if he is objectively way off the mark? What matters is that he thinks he is normal and in the truth, so he behaves as though he is, and so he persuades many Catholics that he is. Here is why this crisis of the Church is so terrible – so many cardinals, bishops and priests cannot believe that they or their Pope are in any way off the mark.

Conclusion? – I need not believe that they are not at all cardinals or bishops or Pope, because when virtually everybody is insane, they are that much less necessarily aware that they are not sane. So I can treat the Pope with all the charity and respect due to his exalted position, and I can rejoice in all the objective good that he does, for instance in the recent “Motu Proprio,” but I will do nothing, but nothing, to associate with his insane Conciliar belief-system until it is clear as clear can be that he repudiates both Vatican II and his subjectivism.
Taken as a whole, one could easily understand Rome's concerns. When the public reads "The Five Conditions," and realizes how reasonable they are in view of the links above, pressure will increase dramatically on Bishop Fellay to make this first simple act of submission.

The five conditions could only be seen as harmful by the most schismatic branch of the SSPX, a branch Bishop Fellay might need to trim if he is to hope the SSPX will have any future in the business of saving souls.


Five Conditions For Fellay?

By Patrick Archbold

Andrea Tornielli writes on his blog that the conditions spelled out are not intended for the entire leadership of the SSPX, but for Fellay only. [Translation Rorate Caeli]
those conditions are not proposed to the Lefebvrists in general, but actually to their Superior, that is, Fellay himself. Who, in the discussions, displays a will to dialogue, but afterwards writes and undersigns very harsh attacks against the Pope. The five conditions are thus a prior step before reaching the cancellation of the excommunication
If true, the Vatican is looking to have a real negotiating partner. Not someone who will say the right things to the Holy See in private and then throws bombs to placate the wacko Williamson wing of the SSPX.

Rorate also reports on a hopeful (if extremely speculative) sign that perhaps Fellay will sign on.
Paolo Luigi Rodari on calls to the headquarters of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX):

[...]
A very small indication regarding the fact that, probably, the Lefebvrists [sic] will accept the conditions proposed by the Holy See (or that they are at least seriously thinking about them) came to me by way of a phone call I made yesterday to Ecône, headquarters of the Fraternity of Saint Pius X. As in other occasions in the past, I asked to speak with Bishop Fellay, the Superior of the Fraternity. In the past, particularly when he wished to respond that there was no news regarding their re-entry in the Church, he answered me quickly. Yesterday, instead, he made it known that there was nothing to say. Perhaps because he is seriously thinking about accepting the Vatican conditions but does wish to say so?
Fellay is in a tough spot. Does he do the right thing and risk internal division in the SSPX or does he cater to the hardliners? Prayers, more than ever, are certainly in order. Bishop Fellay needs all the grace he can get.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: fellay; pope; sspx; vatican
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1 posted on 06/25/2008 9:45:41 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Some of you may recognize one of the authors, Brian Kopp, who is a former member of this forum.


2 posted on 06/25/2008 9:47:28 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer
"or does he cater to the hardliners those who adhere to 20 centuries of Catholic teaching and dogma"

Fixed it.

3 posted on 06/25/2008 9:49:57 AM PDT by NewJerseyJoe (Rat mantra: "Facts are meaningless! You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!")
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To: NYer

I do.I hope you are doing well Brian.


4 posted on 06/25/2008 9:52:27 AM PDT by fatima
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To: NYer

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, but are these conditions for lifting/nullifying/whatever the excommunications, or conditions for something else, or both?


5 posted on 06/25/2008 10:15:29 AM PDT by Mike Fieschko (et numquam abrogatam)
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To: NewJerseyJoe
Disobeying the Holy Father is the opposite of adherence to the Catholic faith.

The quotes from Williamson reveal his narcissism and megalomania.

6 posted on 06/25/2008 10:27:52 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Mike Fieschko

They are the conditions for returning this schismatic sect to full communion with the Catholic Church.


7 posted on 06/25/2008 10:29:45 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: NewJerseyJoe

Some SSPX friends of mine insist it is sinful for girls to participate in sports.

Where does Catholic Church Doctrine, over the past 20 centuries, officially teach this?


8 posted on 06/25/2008 10:33:34 AM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: NYer
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: Please pray for Dr. Brian Kopp (heart surgery)

Please pray for my friend, Dr. Brian Kopp, he's going in for heart surgery on Monday morning.

Praise God and modern medicine, the prognosis as far as the projected outcome goes seems very good thus far, but it's still very hairy stuff.

For those of you who don't know him personally, Brian is truly one of the sweetest guys you'll encounter. He's also a passionate Catholic who I'm better for knowing.

He's doing well, I hear.

9 posted on 06/25/2008 10:38:54 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: wideawake

I thought disobeying the Holy Father was a necessary precondition for becoming a bishop?


10 posted on 06/25/2008 10:43:06 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: wideawake

The big picture is that the Catholic Church is moving toward re-embracing the ways of the SSPX, which happen to have been the ways of the Catholic Church for quite some number of centuries.


11 posted on 06/25/2008 10:47:48 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: NewJerseyJoe
There is nothing traditional about the overtly schismatic act of consecrating bishops in defiance of Rome.

We can agree that the post-conciliar Church is badly infected by modernism, and that the SSPX has staunchly opposed same. It grieves me to criticise them, for they have given me much and suffered much. But by now refusing this astonishingly gentle and charitable offer to have their status regularised with no condition attached other than common courtesy and a traditional deference to the Petrine office, the SSPX has the ability to destroy all it has achieved. It will never get a better offer than this.

The SSPX is desperately needed in the Holy Father's tool kit. This is no time for bitterness or pride when the fate of souls hangs in the balance.

I wonder if you've ever read Evelyn Waugh's great war trilogy Sword of Honour. In the final book the protagonist's father sends him a letter scolding him for his bitterness about the Church's 70-plus years of accommodation with the now-collapsed Piedmontese usurpation and latter-day Fascisti:

"Of course in the 1870s and 80s every decent Roman disliked the Piedmontese, just as the decent French now hate the Germans. They had been invaded. And, of course, most of the Romans we know kept it up, sulking. But that isn't the Church. The Mystical Body [read: the SSPX] doesn't strike attitudes and stand on its dignity. It accepts suffering and injustice. It is ready to forgive at the first hint of compunction.

"When you spoke of the Lateran Treaty [read: an accord with the SSPX] did you consider how many souls may have been reconciled and have died at peace as a result of it? How many children may have been brought up in the faith who might have lived in ignorance? Quantitative judgments don't apply. If only one soul was saved that is full compensation for any amount of loss of 'face'.

I pray someone puts these words before Bishop Fellay's eyes.

12 posted on 06/25/2008 11:00:38 AM PDT by Romulus ("Ira enim viri iustitiam Dei non operatur")
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To: fetal heart beats by 21st day

The Catholic Church has never taught that; the SSPX is very sunk in a wierd late 19th century ultramontane mentality and for some reason has decided that the standards of 19th century Victorian (Protestant) England are officially part of the Catholic Church. I used to accuse them of wanting to go back to the 1950s, but gradually, I realized that wasn’t far enough...

That said, I think their original point - about the Roman Rite - was valid, but it has been lost. I can understand why the original group had to leave, because they were unable to get a guarantee from the Pope protecting their right to use what is now referred to as the Gregorian Rite (TLM). Perhaps we can thank them for keeping it alive in some form and I think this is why the Pope is offering them this chance. But after leaving, they went off on a number of tangents, such as their strange attitudes towards women, and because they were separate from the Church and largely subject to whatever dominant personality happened to have the upper hand in their group, all of these things assumed equal importance. Now it’s as important for them to impose their odd and somewhat Islamic ideas about women as it is to have the TLM.


13 posted on 06/25/2008 11:23:12 AM PDT by livius
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To: steve86
the ways of the SSPX, which happen to have been the ways of the Catholic Church for quite some number of centuries

In outward show, yes.

14 posted on 06/25/2008 11:38:30 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Romulus

Excellent post.


15 posted on 06/25/2008 11:41:20 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: NYer; Polycarp
Some of you may recognize one of the authors, Brian Kopp, who is a former member of this forum.

I was always a big fan of ol' polycarp. His account is still active, BTW.
16 posted on 06/25/2008 11:50:27 AM PDT by Antoninus (Every second spent bashing McCain is time that could be spent helping Conservatives downticket.)
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo; Polycarp
Yes, best wishes from me too, Brian.

Had no idea you were having surgery but I hope the surgery was a success and that all is well with you.

God Bless

18 posted on 06/25/2008 1:53:24 PM PDT by TotusTuus
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To: NYer

Wow! Polycarp. Glad to see you are still around.


19 posted on 06/25/2008 1:56:18 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Romulus
The SSPX is desperately needed in the Holy Father's tool kit.

Absolutely. It is heart-breaking to see the ever-hardening position of the SSPX when they could be such a positive asset to the church.

20 posted on 06/25/2008 2:16:16 PM PDT by LordBridey
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