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Anglicanism Nearly Finished Destroying Itself
Catholic and Enjoying it ^ | June 26, 2008 | Mark Shea

Posted on 06/26/2008 10:26:37 AM PDT by NYer

Anglicanism Nearly Finished Destroying Itself

It seems geologic ages of time since Sayers, Williams and Lewis walked the earth.

And yet it's only been 50-60 years. Think about that when somebody says "What could happen in the space of a few years?" Stable societies can, under the right circumstances, collapse with incredible speed.


Breaking the bonds of communion

Father Raymond J. de Souza, National Post 
Published: Thursday, June 26, 2008

Formal arrangements have yet to be made, but it now appears that the critical decisions have already been taken for a dissolution of the Anglican Communion. Every 10 years, all the world's Anglican bishops meet at the seat of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Lambeth Palace. They are scheduled to meet this summer, but already some 250 have decided not to attend, boycotting because of the failure of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, to discipline American and Canadian Anglicans for blessing same-sex unions and ordaining actively homosexual clergy.

Many of those who are not attending Lambeth are in Jerusalem this week for an alternative meeting, to discuss how they see the way forward. The parallel meetings are a clear manifestation that the bonds of communion have broken down. The Archbishop of Canterbury is not in Jerusalem, and is not welcome there. The breach appears irreparable and therefore the Anglican Communion's days as a global community centred in Canterbury are numbered.

That is a sadness for those, like myself, who have affection for the Anglican sensibility. But sensibilities are not doctrines, and it cannot be the case that members of the same communion can hold directly contradictory views on matters of grave importance. The Canadian and American proponents of same-sex marriages are arguing that homosexual acts can be morally good, and even sacramental. The traditional Christian view is that such acts are sinful. That is a gap that cannot be bridged: Either one holds to the ancient and constant teaching of the Christian Church, or one rejects it in favour of a different position. It cannot be that both views exist side-by-side as equally acceptable options.

It is not a disagreement only about sexual morality. It goes deeper than that, to what status the ancient and apostolic tradition has in the Church

today. There can be no doubt that the blessing of homosexual relationships is entirely novel and in contradiction to the Christian tradition. So if that tradition no longer holds, it raises questions about the apostolicity of those communities which have abandoned it.

An additional sadness for Catholic and Orthodox Christians is that if the Anglican Communion embraces the path of doctrinal innovation, they will be closing the door on closer ecumenical relations. By unilaterally choosing to do what Catholics and Orthodox have always taught is outside our common tradition, they would be choosing the path of division.

That has already become dramatically evident. I remember being at the opening ceremonies of the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000 in Rome, when pope John Paul II opened the Holy Door at the Basilica of St. Paul Outside The Walls. He invited the then-archbishop of canter-bury, Dr. George Carey, and an Orthodox archbishop to open the door together with him, three abreast in unity.

By the time of John Paul's death in 2005, matters had deteriorated significantly. The original draft for his funeral called for the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople to offer joint prayers at the conclusion of the funeral Mass, but it never came off. By then it was thought more doubtful, above all in the eyes of the Orthodox, that the Anglican Communion was still in the historic tradition of the apostolic faith.


TOPICS: Current Events; History; Mainline Protestant; Prayer
KEYWORDS: anglican; homosexualagenda; lambeth

1 posted on 06/26/2008 10:26:37 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
I remember being at the opening ceremonies of the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000 in Rome, when pope John Paul II opened the Holy Door at the Basilica of St. Paul Outside The Walls. He invited the then-archbishop of canter-bury, Dr. George Carey, and an Orthodox archbishop to open the door together with him, three abreast in unity.


2 posted on 06/26/2008 10:27:56 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: sionnsar; Kolokotronis

Ping!


3 posted on 06/26/2008 10:29:28 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

Sad evidence that homosexuality tends to destroy whatever it touches.


4 posted on 06/26/2008 10:34:48 AM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things)
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To: NYer

Henry VIII is immensely proud, if satan lets him know what’s cooking up here.


5 posted on 06/26/2008 10:42:37 AM PDT by CWWren (Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress....but I repeat myself.)
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To: NYer

Dr. Carey was a different person altogether from Williams the ArchDruid. He actually had principles which were not subject to endless negotiation.


6 posted on 06/26/2008 10:43:18 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: NYer
...three abreast in unity.

Another error for the sake of ecumenism.

The present Vicar of Christ promises to be more pleasing to his Maker!

7 posted on 06/26/2008 10:44:44 AM PDT by CWWren (Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress....but I repeat myself.)
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To: NYer

The problem is that even if the Anglican Communion excises the cancer that is rotting the communion from the head, the remainder of the body will still be split into a more Orthodox and a more Reformed faction.


8 posted on 06/26/2008 10:50:17 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: caseinpoint
Sad evidence that homosexuality tends to destroy whatever it touches.

Some years ago, NRO's John Derbyshire commented that when homosexuals join a group they eventually reach a certain number where the group stops being about its original intent, and instead, becomes all about homosexuality and their agenda.

The Anglican Church appears to have reached that point.

9 posted on 06/26/2008 11:02:35 AM PDT by LibertarianLiz
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To: LibertarianLiz

I concur that you and John Derbyshire are right. I remember when the New Hampshire Bishop assured people that he would be a Bishop who was incidentally a homosexual. How wrong that was. Now it’s all about him being gay and his “calling” to transform the church to his image.


10 posted on 06/26/2008 11:07:01 AM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things)
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To: NYer
It's interesting how heresy - real heresy - expands within the soul of the heretic until it displaces everything else.

Homosexualism and feminism are both Christian heresies which deny the created order and hence the Creator. Those Episcopalians who have been captured by these heresies just CAN'T LET THEM GO, not for a second.

Over time, EVERYTHING becomes about gay sex or equal "rights", and there's no room any more for Christ.

Amazing, and sad.

11 posted on 06/26/2008 11:13:45 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Cut the birth certificate crap! It's the communism, stupid!)
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To: LibertarianLiz
It is at it's core "the self-love disease." I have known several men from my high-school years who have "gone over to play for the other team", and over their lives that one choice has become everything they are. They went from being atletes, intellectuals, sons, workers, and Americans (who chose homosexuality) to being gay; it came to color every thing they did, and this disease in the end demanded that everyone around them approve of their bad choices.

In every other aspect, nice guys (although every one had weak, agressive, or absent fathers.) But if you did not agree that what they did was completely fine and completely out of their control to reject, you were a bigot and cast into the night. Over time, they had "gay-colored-glasses" permanently welded to their heads, and there was not an issue, idea or choice not completely at the mercy of their "lifestyle choice." Sad.

12 posted on 06/26/2008 11:29:31 AM PDT by 50sDad (OBAMA: In your heart you know he's Wright.)
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To: CWWren

Pope Benedict really knows to crack the whip — I admire our current Pope


13 posted on 06/26/2008 11:35:48 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: Cronos
Me too!

Many of those who have left the Novis Ordo for sedevacantist and SSPX chapels and churches need to pay strict attention to what Benedict is doing and saying.

The big problem here is that the majority of our bishops are so liberal that they're a disgrace. The liturgical reforms that are now happening, that I have personally observed in Europe may not have a chance here for some time due to these bishops.

The UK and Ireland's Catholic churches are, as of a date certain in the near future, changing to the pre-Vatican II Tridentine Mass. I was astounded when I read this in an English language edition of the official Vatican newspaper.

Unfortunately, during the decades following Vatican II sin, in the eyes of many, has become subjective and those calling themselves Catholic look upon the Church as a cafeteria.

14 posted on 06/26/2008 11:46:52 AM PDT by CWWren (Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress....but I repeat myself.)
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To: Cronos

I don’t think of him as a whip cracker at all. I might have thought that before he became pope, but no more. He’s more of a firm father who never raises his voice but doesn’t condone either. One that lets you learn by experiencing the consequences of your behavior.


15 posted on 06/26/2008 11:56:09 AM PDT by ichabod1 (If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it, and if it stops moving, subsidize it.)
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To: LibertarianLiz
Some years ago, NRO's John Derbyshire commented that when homosexuals join a group they eventually reach a certain number where the group stops being about its original intent, and instead, becomes all about homosexuality and their agenda.

Similar holds true regarding Muslims and whatever country they happen to be colonizing at the moment: once they reach critical mass there, that country might as well forget all about its original reason for existing.

16 posted on 06/26/2008 12:40:52 PM PDT by Constitutionalist Conservative (Global Warming Heretic -- http://agw-heretic.blogspot.com)
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To: Jim Noble
It's interesting how heresy - real heresy - expands within the soul of the heretic until it displaces everything else.

Would you also apply this to the SSPX?

17 posted on 06/26/2008 4:19:55 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

I’m not a Catholic and I don’t have a dog in the SSPX fight.


18 posted on 06/26/2008 5:05:17 PM PDT by Jim Noble (Cut the birth certificate crap! It's the communism, stupid!)
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To: NYer; Huber

The piece seems really confused about the definitions of Anglican, Anglicanism, and the Anglican Communion.


19 posted on 06/26/2008 6:05:30 PM PDT by sionnsar (trad-anglican.faithweb.com |Iran Azadi| 5yst3m 0wn3d - it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY) | UN: Useless Nations)
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To: sionnsar; NYer

Agreed. Trapped at O’Hare due to a delayed flight, I contemplated whether it merited pinging and concluded that it would result in more confusion than illumination.


20 posted on 06/26/2008 6:53:29 PM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: NYer
That is a sadness for those, like myself, who have affection for the Anglican sensibility.

This comment resonates with me. I remember my visits to Anglican churches in England. I remember the emptiness, the short ceremony and talk of can't-remember-what by the Anglican divine. I also remember a middle-aged fellow in a tweed suit devoutly kneeling and praying with his common book. I recall Anglicans, whose faith seems to be dissolved in a cloud of contradictory sentiments, insisting that their children grow up churched, lest they turn out like the parents themselves--unchurched. I think God will reward the persistence of some of these Anglicans.

Among the British theologians, Anglican or denomenational, of the last couple hundred years you will find many of surpassing excellence, such as Bishop Butler. But with the good you find the tares. It is as if one hand of Anglicanism was busy tearing down and undermining what the other hand was trying to build up. The result was a collapse into the know-nothing-ism of the 19th century. Theology is bunk. Big words are bunk. Reasoning about God is bunk. History is bunk. Miracles are bunk. Everything is bunk. And now, the Anglican situation of today.

I suppose many causes led up to this situation. One material cause I venture to put forth is that Anglicanism cut itself off from prior history of Christian thought. This is quite evident from their books. Rather than applying St. Paul's "take what is good, leave the rest", I guess they thought it was all bunk and not worth considering. Thus they built their theology on a foundation of sand.

21 posted on 06/26/2008 8:33:21 PM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode (<<== Click here to learn about Darwinism!)
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To: wideawake; sionnsar

“The problem is that even if the Anglican Communion excises the cancer that is rotting the communion from the head, the remainder of the body will still be split into a more Orthodox and a more Reformed faction.”

As we Greeks say, a fish rots from the head down. Look at Anglicanism headed by the likes of the Arch Druid of Canterbury, the Great White Heretic of Canada and that silly woman heresiarch with the rainbow oven mitt for a mitre here in the States. Institutional white, Western, Northern Anglicanism is no longer anything recognizable as Christian. What assuredly IS recognizable are many of the traditional and orthodox Anglican communities here and around the Western world. It will be interesting to see if those groups, and for the matter the Global South, end up in communion with Rome or Holy Orthodoxy.


22 posted on 06/27/2008 4:50:28 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: NYer

If the SSPX are schismatics, does that mean that they are heretics? What heresy have they committed? They do explicitly deny sedevacantism, and I’m not sure that’s a heresy.


23 posted on 06/27/2008 5:09:58 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Kolokotronis
>> rainbow oven mitt <<

Oh, pics pleeease....

I certainly have seen where her rainbow styles have caused ridiculous fashion:

(incidentally, that file's name is "technicolor_yawn.jpg")

24 posted on 06/27/2008 5:14:20 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
What heresy have they committed? They do explicitly deny sedevacantism, and I’m not sure that’s a heresy.

When one of their leaders - namely Williamson - asserts that the Holy See teaches heresy, then he himself is teaching the heresy that the Church is defectible.

25 posted on 06/27/2008 5:15:31 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Kolokotronis

Or is this the very picture you were referring to?


26 posted on 06/27/2008 5:15:42 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Kolokotronis
It will be interesting to see if those groups, and for the matter the Global South, end up in communion with Rome or Holy Orthodoxy.

As I suggested above, there is a third alternative. One of the main groups within the Anglican communion insisting on Scriptural moral teaching is the Anglican diocese of Sydney, Australia. That diocese is decidedly neither Catholic nor Orthodox in tone, but Reformed in its theology.

27 posted on 06/27/2008 5:19:07 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: 50sDad
I have known several men from my high-school years who have "gone over to play for the other team",

Sheesh, what's in the water of your high school?

28 posted on 06/27/2008 5:22:34 AM PDT by stevio (Crunchy Con - God, guns, guts, and organically grown crunchy nuts.)
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To: wideawake

>> When one of their leaders - namely Williamson - asserts that the Holy See teaches heresy, then he himself is teaching the heresy that the Church is defectible. <<

I’m not sure about Williamson, but I believe the notion is that Vatican 2, and many actions by the Pope afterward, may contain elements of heresy, but don’t violate the notion of infallibility because there was no invocation of infallibility: The objectionable portions of Vatican II were explicitly non-dogmatic in nature, and Paul VI’s abolishment of the Latin Mass (can we please call a spade a spade? The Latin Mass was abolished by Paul VI!) invited heresy, but was an act of governance, not of establishing doctrine.


29 posted on 06/27/2008 5:29:55 AM PDT by dangus
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To: wideawake

“That diocese is decidedly neither Catholic nor Orthodox in tone, but Reformed in its theology.”

Oh, I agree to great extent and yet its surprising how very, very Orthodox some of the theology of the “evangelical” wing of the Anglicans can be. Read some of the tracts of Bishop Ryle from the 19th century. On the other hand, I have also heard that some of these “orthodox” Anglican groups are truly and profoundly Reformed Protestant.


30 posted on 06/27/2008 5:34:04 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: dangus

Reminds me of a little girl playing “dress up”. It’s all make believe.


31 posted on 06/27/2008 5:44:05 AM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: dangus
Infallibility and indefectibility are not synonymous.
32 posted on 06/27/2008 6:26:33 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

And what’s with the use of such a prepostrously large miter anyway? It’s three times the size of the POPE’S! (Right, she’s playing gay pope.)


33 posted on 06/27/2008 7:54:33 AM PDT by dangus
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To: 50sDad
It is at it's core "the self-love disease." I have known several men from my high-school years who have "gone over to play for the other team", and over their lives that one choice has become everything they are. They went from being atletes, intellectuals, sons, workers, and Americans (who chose homosexuality) to being gay; it came to color every thing they did, and this disease in the end demanded that everyone around them approve of their bad choices.

Dead on and very astute in your observations. This bears repeating.

34 posted on 06/27/2008 9:39:23 PM PDT by fwdude (If marriage can mean anything, then marriage means nothing.)
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To: dangus
What heresy have they committed?

I think it can be shown that SSPX rejects certain dogmas of Vatican I. They may not admit so formally, but their words and actions reveal it.

35 posted on 06/27/2008 11:40:28 PM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode (<<== Click here to learn about Darwinism!)
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To: Ethan Clive Osgoode

>> I think it can be shown that SSPX rejects certain dogmas of Vatican I. <<

Really? Vatican I? That is a fascinating charge. What dogmas do you see as being challenged by SSPX?


36 posted on 06/28/2008 2:10:48 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
Really? Vatican I? That is a fascinating charge. What dogmas do you see as being challenged by SSPX?

Pastor Aeternus Ch.3, On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff:

9. So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.

37 posted on 06/28/2008 11:04:13 PM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode (<<== Click here to learn about Darwinism!)
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