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Take care whem mocking Old Testament
Aberdeen American News ^ | June 22, 2008 | Art Marmorstein

Posted on 06/28/2008 3:05:19 PM PDT by jwalburg

The religious left of this country seems to delight in mocking the laws of the Old Testament and in making fun of anyone who thinks that these laws should be regarded as part of the inspired word of God. It's amazing how often their sneering attempts at humor simply ignore long-established Christian ideas on how to study the Old Testament and how to apply it to our lives.

Jesus and the apostles themselves emphasized the importance of the Hebrew scriptures. Jesus told his followers that he hadn't come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfill them. The apostle Paul told Timothy that all scripture was given by inspiration of God, and was “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

But while the church from its beginnings has insisted on the continued usefulness of the Old Testament, the church has also insisted that it was essential to apply the Old Testament scriptures in the right way. “The law is good,” said Paul, “if a man uses it lawfully.”

So exactly what is the right way for a Christian to use the Hebrew scriptures? The New Testament is a great guide, and every book from Matthew to Revelation shows how Christians can profitably use the Old Testament.

Christian theologians like St. Thomas Aquinas are also very helpful. Aquinas tells us that, in looking at the Torah (the books of Moses) we find three kinds of laws: moral precepts, ceremonial precepts and judicial precepts. The moral precepts (commands like, “thou shalt not steal” and “thou shalt not commit adultery”) are an extension and clarification of natural law, and, as such, are obligatory for all people everywhere at all times.

The ceremonial precepts, on the other hand, were part of God's covenant with Israel, never meant apply to gentiles. Aquinas argues that these laws are “dead” as far as Christians are concerned - and potentially deadly if used in the wrong way. To try to obtain salvation through these ceremonies cuts one off from God's grace, the true source of our salvation.

Does this mean that Christians should just ignore ceremonial law? Not at all, says Aquinas. As the writer of Hebrews notes, the earthly rituals of the Old Testament all point to deeper spiritual truth. The earthly priests represent the “great high priest that has passed into the heavens.” The earthly sacrifices foreshadow the great sacrifice of Christ himself. The ceremonial law, then, no less than the moral law, is still a source of eternal truth to Christians.

What about the judicial precepts? These also were a part of the covenant with Israel and, like ceremonial law, “dead” as far as Christians are concerned. But following the judicial precepts doesn't entail the same deadly risk as following ceremonial law. A Christian nation might very well adopt some of these laws - though it doesn't have to. But behind these mutable judicial precepts is something the Christian can't ignore. The judicial precepts deal with the relationships of people with each other and, very often, they reflect one aspect or another of eternal moral law - principles we should always honor, though the means of enforcement might vary from nation to nation.

And beyond practical application, there is something else to be gained from the study of the Old Testament. The Apostle Peter compared the Hebrew scriptures to a light shining in the dark, and advised us to study the scriptures until the light went on in our own hearts. Psalm 19 says that the power of God's laws to transform our lives makes them sweeter than honey and more desirable than gold.

To mock and dismiss the Old Testament means to miss out on this transforming power, and to miss out on great joy.


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: bible; exegesis; inspiration; oldtestament; scripture

1 posted on 06/28/2008 3:05:20 PM PDT by jwalburg
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To: jwalburg
Some of the laws of the OT are a bit archaic for us western gentiles but if you examine the scientific and philosophical underpinnings of OT scripture, it shines forth the practicality of some of these laws. the Jews did very well because of this. Of course very few people practice animal sacrifice or erecting a fence on their house or the like.
2 posted on 06/28/2008 3:09:18 PM PDT by mainestategop
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To: mainestategop

It is not so much that the OT laws are archaic, but that some were only for the nation of Israel before the coming of the Messiah. With the arrival of Christ, many of the ritual and ceremonial laws were fulfilled in Christ, and no longer obligatory for Christians of the New Covenant.


3 posted on 06/28/2008 3:13:32 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: jwalburg

What should we take of Moses’s example when he was upset that his men didn’t kill enough of the enemy and told them to go back and slaughter all the men and boys and take all the girls for themselves?


4 posted on 06/28/2008 3:18:51 PM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: jwalburg

i dont know some things in the old testament could very well be used for christians to practice today however on the sacrifice animals and get into war with the unbelievers part i think could be best left out of today’s christians practices. but the old testament should be neither ignored nor mocked the old testament was the foundation of the abrahamic religions and should be respected.


5 posted on 06/28/2008 3:20:41 PM PDT by mayu33
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To: Ron Jeremy

Give me the chapter and verses, please.


6 posted on 06/28/2008 3:21:54 PM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: mainestategop

True, now we can dicker over the Noachide Covenant or the LeviticalLaws, but either way, they do beg the question:

“If not God’s Laws, then whose laws”?


7 posted on 06/28/2008 3:27:30 PM PDT by padre35 (Conservative in Exile/ Is 51/ Heller vindicates GWB...armatismi is libertismi)
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To: vpintheak

Snipers don’t give chapter and verse because they are not interested in discovering who God is. They are wandering to and fro seeking whom they may devour. They come forth but to steal and to kill.

This is the nature of the drive by freeper.

It takes a devout Christian to begin to understand the wars of the Old Testament. Not to be made fun of. The war today is against our soul. “For we (no longer) wrestle against flesh and blood.”


8 posted on 06/28/2008 3:29:43 PM PDT by shineon
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To: shineon

But spiritual wickedness in high places.


9 posted on 06/28/2008 3:30:45 PM PDT by shineon
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To: shineon

So I am committed to taking the higher ground and contemplating how in the world I’m supposed to love my enemy.


10 posted on 06/28/2008 3:32:24 PM PDT by shineon
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To: jwalburg
I guess, then, we should still impose the following test of an unfaithful wife? From Numbers:

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.

16 " 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. [d] 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [e] " " 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

23 " 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, [f] and she will become accursed among her people. 28 If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 " 'This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.' "

11 posted on 06/28/2008 4:11:39 PM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: jwalburg
Take care whem mocking Old Testament

For all the world to see.........

12 posted on 06/28/2008 4:15:04 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco
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To: Ron Jeremy

Well, either he did this because God told him to, so we follow his example with whatever God tells us to, or he didn’t, and we don’t.


13 posted on 06/28/2008 4:17:40 PM PDT by naturalized ("The time has come," He said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!")
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To: shineon

Start by praying for him - not for success in his evil plans, but that he be brought to repentance by whatever means necessary.


14 posted on 06/28/2008 4:19:11 PM PDT by naturalized ("The time has come," He said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!")
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To: vpintheak

Numbers 31
Vengeance on the Midianites
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”

3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD’s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.


15 posted on 06/28/2008 4:20:06 PM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: LiteKeeper
“It is not so much that the OT laws are archaic, but that some were only for the nation of Israel before the coming of the Messiah. With the arrival of Christ, many of the ritual and ceremonial laws were fulfilled in Christ, and no longer obligatory for Christians of the New Covenant.”

Exactly. These laws were directed to the Jews. They lived under a theocracy.

16 posted on 06/28/2008 4:20:37 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: shineon
Snipers don’t give chapter and verse because they are not interested in discovering who God is.

Except I did give chapter and verse. Now, have you ever been jealous of your wife? Did you give her the test from Numbers that I posted in this thread?

17 posted on 06/28/2008 4:31:40 PM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: jwalburg

In the end the 10 commandments are the foundation of Heaven’s ways, it cannot be heaven if we are against these things. It is not heaven when we steal from each other, etc, I am sure you understand. While true no man has lived perfectly except Jesus,and none are saved by the law, it is very important mankind understands these laws are not designed to punish us, they are designed to free us from ourselves and the reaction of our actions and thoughts made manifest on the world today.
Peace in Christ!


18 posted on 06/28/2008 4:34:22 PM PDT by aeonspromise
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To: Ron Jeremy

Thank you very much for chapter and verse.

What do you make of the meaning of these Old Testament verses?


19 posted on 06/28/2008 4:38:33 PM PDT by shineon
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To: shineon
What do you make of the meaning of these Old Testament verses?

My thoughts are complex, and not fully formalized (i.e. a constant search). But, in a short way, you have to either accept that much of the OT was the world of an earlier age, with rules and ways of acting for a more primitive people, and that they don't apply to us and/or 2. It's mostly allegory. That is, Moses didn't actually do some of these things. He led armies, and the oral story passed down generation after generation has become highly distorted and/or exaggerated.

20 posted on 06/28/2008 4:41:31 PM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: jwalburg

Some of the most flagrant perversions of proper exegesis are seen when homosexual apologists strives to negate the explicit prohibitions against homosexual relations, or to insert sex into passages where it does not belong. The most egregious example is by a Professor Wink, which i was compelled to refute: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Homosexuality_and_the_Bible_Wink.html


21 posted on 06/28/2008 4:51:33 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Give your sins and life to Him who died your us and rose again. Jesus is Lord.)
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To: Ron Jeremy

“should we take of Moses’s example..”

Yes as a matter of fact, we should, in context. Contrary to your description, Moses did not act of out personal anger, as that was very remarkably not his manner, rather Moses ws the man of God chosen by God to deliver the Hebrews from bondage, and to lead them int the Promised Land. And to execute judgment upon exceedingly immoral nations whom God had endured with much suffering and needs be destroyed. The judgment of God is not rash, nor at all unjust, rather before such He gives nations ample time to repent. When they continue in destructive immorality, it is actually needful to remove them in order to stop such.

Your objection is most likely to a God who punishes sin, and that surely is the liberals intolerance, and against moral laws such as deal with sex, while they are all to willing to pass laws that penalize calling certain sins evil, even though they seem to recognize abuse of nature is wrong.

But the reality is that God does judge nations (Jer. 18:7-10), and people (2 Thes. 1:8, 9), and is perfectly just in doing so. “For we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things” (Rom 2:2). And yet God declares that He has “no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live” (Ezek. 33:11).

As for the applicability of Moses acts to today, in order to do as he did, you would have to be under a manifestly God ordained theocracy, as well as have abundant Divine attestation for your Moses and war. Islam supposes it can wage “holy war,” but critically lacks the manner of Divine attestation given to Moses.

As for the church, there is no Biblical justification for the church using the sword of men to defend or expand the faith, as “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;” (2 Cor 10:4).


22 posted on 06/28/2008 5:15:44 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Give your sins and life to Him who died your us and rose again. Jesus is Lord.)
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To: Ron Jeremy

See the link in post 21


23 posted on 06/28/2008 5:18:22 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Give your sins and life to Him who died your us and rose again. Jesus is Lord.)
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To: Ron Jeremy

Here are my thoughts.

The most effective way for reading the Old Testament is through they “eyes” of the New Testament. The New Testament tells us that the will and Testament comes into force with the death of the testator. In this case the death of Jesus Christ.

The Death and blood of Jesus Christ was for the remission and forgiveness of our sins. The wage of sin is death.

If sin is not take seriously then none of the God’s word can be taken seriously.

Sin is the separation of man from God. It is a tear in the relationship.

With the death of Jesus on the Cross - the Old Testament sacrifices for sin were fulfilled. This was for the reconciliation of man towards God.

The Old Testament sacrifices were for the remission of sin but Jesus death on the cross provided the ultimate sacrifice once and for all. The debt for sin was paid through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Going back to the Old Testament - the price for sin had not yet been paid and God could not commune with man in the same manner as if the price had been already paid.

Balaam was responsible for directing the Moabites to send their women to sleep with the Hebrews in order to corrupt their hearts away from God and toward other “worldly affections.”

Balaam was originally hired to curse the children of Israel, but he was not able to do so. The best “curse” he could come up with was “Oh how goodly are thy tents oh Jacob and thy dwelling places Israel”

So he devised a plan to corrupt Israel through immorality. This plan was followed through and it was for this whoredom that the Moabites were being judged by God.


24 posted on 06/28/2008 5:32:57 PM PDT by shineon
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To: daniel1212

Great response, thanks


25 posted on 06/28/2008 8:18:35 PM PDT by shineon
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To: Hot Tabasco

whem is an ancient form of the word when. It was used whenever the word when was spelled incorrectly by replacing the last letter of when with an m.


26 posted on 06/28/2008 8:20:51 PM PDT by shineon
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To: shineon

It seems to show up more frequently with the dawn of the qwerty typewriter keyboard, where the letter m has been placed right next to the letter n.


27 posted on 06/28/2008 8:22:50 PM PDT by shineon
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To: shineon

No problem, I can handle it. Thanks.


28 posted on 06/28/2008 11:17:44 PM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: Ron Jeremy

Okay. Now have you read any of the background to this history?


29 posted on 06/28/2008 11:20:42 PM PDT by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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placemarker


30 posted on 06/28/2008 11:35:24 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: Ron Jeremy; All

Ron Jeremy, others. I listen to Dennis Prager who is a Jew. He explains passages such as this from time to time to put them in perspective. I have not heard him speak to this particular passage but from listening to him explain others I feel confident with what I am about to say about this.

God knows the evil heart of man and gives rules to keep us from doing the worst in a given situation.

In this instance, a man thru his own jealousy, thinks his wife has been unfaithful. He has no witnesses so it can’t be adjudicated by the lawful manor which leaves him to stew about it to the point that he might beat or kill her.

God gives him an outlet. A way to test her faithfulness. The only problem is that he has to take her to the priest and admit he thinks she is unfaithful which puts him in a position of admitting he hasn’t kept his wife from straying. The pride of most men will stop them from going any further.

The few that would take them to the priest still have to wait for the results before their wife could be stoned if in fact the test proved she was unfaithful.

Do you have the picture yet? The man has no control over his wife unless she is proven guilty by someone else or God. He cannot kill her on his own. It would be murder and his life would be taken.

Contrast that to the honor killings we read about way to often. Their god didn’t give them any of these stupid, useless, antiquated laws and their women and children have no rights!

God is a whole lot wiser than us. BVB


31 posted on 06/29/2008 12:10:28 AM PDT by Bobsvainbabblings
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To: shineon

OK, but are you in essence saying that since Jesus washed away our sins, that none of this brutality of the old testament makes sense any more?


32 posted on 06/29/2008 10:00:29 AM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: Bobsvainbabblings
Do you have the picture yet? The man has no control over his wife unless she is proven guilty by someone else or God.

Perhaps I am misreading the passage I quoted, but it looks to me like they force the woman to drink vile, bitter water, and then see if she gets sick. That is no different than burning witches under the theory that if they are innocent, God will save them. It is sick, brutish, evil, and uncivilized.

33 posted on 06/29/2008 10:02:10 AM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: daniel1212
Your objection is most likely to a God who punishes sin, and that surely is the liberals intolerance, and against moral laws such as deal with sex, while they are all to willing to pass laws that penalize calling certain sins evil, even though they seem to recognize abuse of nature is wrong.

Sorry, I have no problem with the punishment of sin. I have a problem with the slaughtering of children though!

But the reality is that God does judge nations (Jer. 18:7-10), and people (2 Thes. 1:8, 9), and is perfectly just in doing so.

Of course, judging and punishing nations is contrary to the new testament. The New Testatment tells us we are going to be judged by our hearts, and whether or not we have accepted Jesus as our savior. If God destroys me because my neighbors are wicked, then he is not judging me on whether or not I love Jesus, but on whether or not my neighbors do. But, since you think God judges nations, which ones has he judged in the last 2,000 years? Why did he allow Islam to dominate the middle east? Why does he allow Saudi Arabia and Iran to exist today?

As for the applicability of Moses acts to today, in order to do as he did, you would have to be under a manifestly God ordained theocracy, as well as have abundant Divine attestation for your Moses and war. Islam supposes it can wage “holy war,” but critically lacks the manner of Divine attestation given to Moses.

So what you are saying is that it is ok to slaughter Children, so long as God is on your side. That's what the Arab's believe.

34 posted on 06/29/2008 10:07:18 AM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: Ron Jeremy

Biblical narrative in tension with Biblical law. In opposition to human sacrifice was Judaism built, and passed on by the blood of those females.


35 posted on 06/29/2008 10:38:00 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Ron Jeremy; Elsie; Godzilla; xzins; Zakeet; Revelation 911; Osage Orange; JRochelle; Alamo-Girl; ...
Clever lawyers exploit 'exception' clauses in contracts, to break contractual arrangements. Your persistent wrangling with this OT material stands out like a lawyer looking for the exception clause to void a contract. If you don't want to believe in the Judeo-Christian Creator God and His human form, Jesus The Christ, why are you wrestling with the contractual aspects of something you choose not to enter into?

One of the reasons that Dennis Praeger exhibits such wisdom on OT is his scholarship (beyond merely being a Jew) ... to comprehend all the aspects of God's contractual relationship with Abram and his descendants (Christians are the final descendants), one needs a depth of knowledge far beyond what a searcher for an exception clause needs.

It is ironic that the mere searching for the exception clause removes one from the contractual framework. Jesus IS the final contract with Whom we must deal to have the righteousness necessary to enter into God's Presence, and on an eternal framework. If you choose to reject the contract, you are left with the way God has arranged for time and space and all that is created to be dealt with in order to make 'it' no longer 'unholy'.

If you wish to see the intricacies of Hebrew, study the Jewish marriage contract and the full history of that bonding/contract. Then, if you fully comprehend that intricate process, perhaps you can study the efficacy of innocent blood. But to merely snatch up the lengthy contractual material of the OT and dilligently search for the exception you believe will absolve you from dealing with a/The Holy God is a lesson in futility, a service to the force in the universe which is antithetical to God's Holiness.

Here's one last illustration. Noting that the screen name you have chosen is that of a notorious porn actor, have you ever stopped to consider how prevelent in our earth-bound environment is porn? Microwave trasnmissions are real spacetime phenomena, and our atmosphere is loaded with the filth of porn, constantly here surrounding us. From your sensory perspective, that bathing in unholiness is of no concern until you use some device to capture the constant barrage and 'make it part of your mental status'. But the OT teaches a concept of defilement ... our planet is defiled beyond what you can even imagine! How is such defilement cleansed?... God has a way, and it is far above man's ways. The efficacy of His way has already been illustrated and awaits the final days to be used.

36 posted on 06/29/2008 10:43:16 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN
Clever lawyers exploit 'exception' clauses in contracts, to break contractual arrangements. Your persistent wrangling with this OT material stands out like a lawyer looking for the exception clause to void a contract. If you don't want to believe in the Judeo-Christian Creator God and His human form, Jesus The Christ, why are you wrestling with the contractual aspects of something you choose not to enter into?

Standard attack #1. If you don't agree 100% with my interpretation of the bible, you must be an atheist.

I am merely pointing out that people who call themselves literalists often don't know what exactly that entails. I have no problem with the Judeo-Christian Creator God. None whatsoever. The reason why is that I don't think he actually wants us to test our wives the way Numbers tells us to. And, because, I don't think we are actually supposed to kill the children of our enemies. To suggest that God wants us to behave that way is an affront to God.

One of the reasons that Dennis Praeger exhibits such wisdom on OT is his scholarship (beyond merely being a Jew) ... to comprehend all the aspects of God's contractual relationship with Abram and his descendants (Christians are the final descendants), one needs a depth of knowledge far beyond what a searcher for an exception clause needs.

Standard attack #2... If you don't agree with my interpretation of something, it must be because you are an idiot.

It is ironic that the mere searching for the exception clause removes one from the contractual framework.

Assuming that I am simply searching for an exception...

Jesus IS the final contract with Whom we must deal to have the righteousness necessary to enter into God's Presence, and on an eternal framework.M

Yes! I agree 100%. That is my point. Jesus swept away the old world, where people butcher children in God's name.

If you choose to reject the contract, you are left with the way God has arranged for time and space and all that is created to be dealt with in order to make 'it' no longer 'unholy'.

I am not rejecting the contract. I am embracing it. It is people who ignore Jesus in live in the OT that are rejecting it.

If you wish to see the intricacies of Hebrew, study the Jewish marriage contract and the full history of that bonding/contract. Then, if you fully comprehend that intricate process, perhaps you can study the efficacy of innocent blood.

Again.. unless you studied Hebrew you can't possibly understand why its ok to make your wife drink bitter water. LOL

But to merely snatch up the lengthy contractual material of the OT and dilligently search for the exception you believe will absolve you from dealing with a/The Holy God is a lesson in futility,

Of course, you are assuming that I did something that I didn't do. Your entire response to me is one big personal attack, without addressing any of the points that I raised.

a service to the force in the universe which is antithetical to God's Holiness.

Rejecting Jesus's message by pretending he didn't exist, and living in a world where you praise and honor barbarism is, in my opinion, antithetical to God's Holiness.

Here's one last illustration. Noting that the screen name you have chosen is that of a notorious porn actor, have you ever stopped to consider how prevelent in our earth-bound environment is porn? Microwave trasnmissions are real spacetime phenomena, and our atmosphere is loaded with the filth of porn, constantly here surrounding us. From your sensory perspective, that bathing in unholiness is of no concern until you use some device to capture the constant barrage and 'make it part of your mental status'. But the OT teaches a concept of defilement ... our planet is defiled beyond what you can even imagine! How is such defilement cleansed?... God has a way, and it is far above man's ways. The efficacy of His way has already been illustrated and awaits the final days to be used.

To be honest, I am not sure that I understand your point. Except, I will note that when I was applying logic to the Mormons, you thought I was great. Now I am simply pointing out that not everything that went on in the OT was all that great, and you respond with one lengthy personal attack. Personally, I think not being aware of the utter barbarism and butchery that is man without Jesus is an affront to God. The OT is a testimony to that barbarism and butchery. It is a once oral, now written history of the Israelites, to whom the Messiah came, and it is important to know and understand. But, it is also important to know WHY Jesus had to come. If the OT was all just flowers and sugar, we wouldn't have needed Jesus in the first place.

37 posted on 06/29/2008 11:06:47 AM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: Ron Jeremy; MHGinTN; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
[ Sorry, I have no problem with the punishment of sin. I have a problem with the slaughtering of children though! ]

America has been murdering many more than a million people(babies) every year for decades.. God did not do that, Americans did.. and God sent Israel into exile(slavery) several times to the gentiles.. for national sins(idolatry,religious fornication,usury)..

What the gentiles do is sinful but not hypocritical sin.. They are honestly sinful.. They do not say one thing and do another.. Christian and Jewish society's are held to a higher standard.. Currently Europe is aborting themselves to death.. Th European muslims are winning demographically.. as Americans are aborting themselves(republican and democrat) to death nationally.. and will be replaced by foreign insurgents..

Sins of the fathers are visited on the sons not by God but by cyclic depravity(addiction[alcohol,drugs,food etc],child abuse,fornication in many forms).. A retrobate heart is redundant and cyclic.. If God does NOT SAVE mankind from himself, all that, festers and grows..

38 posted on 06/29/2008 1:35:49 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe

OK, I agree with that.


39 posted on 06/29/2008 1:55:09 PM PDT by Ron Jeremy (sonic)
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To: Ron Jeremy
"Standard attack #1." ... Um, that you 'felt' I was attacking you when I was addressing your perspective instead ought to give you pause, spiritually.

BTW, not having studied a topic is not equivalent to being an idiot. The red herring doesn't help the discussion.

I think you got the point of the last illustration. Have a good rest of the weekend, RJ.

40 posted on 06/29/2008 2:44:36 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: jwalburg
It's really funny how "philo-Semitic" liberals absolutely despise the "old testament." They seem to think it was written by Louisiana Pentecostals.

It's also funny that "anti-chr*stian liberals" spend so much time trying to legislate the "sermon on the mount."

41 posted on 06/29/2008 3:30:41 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (...veyiqchu 'eleykha farah 'adummah temimah, 'asher 'ein-bah mum 'asher lo'-`alah `aleyha `ol.)
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To: Ron Jeremy
OK, but are you in essence saying that since Jesus washed away our sins, that none of this brutality of the old testament makes sense any more?

Brutality has never made any sense to me. I'm not sure what you are getting at. Does the brutality of the Old Testament compare with Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

And I am a Patriot. I believe in the office of a soldier. I respect many aspects of being a soldier. Namely.

  1. Discipline
  2. Honor
  3. Sacrifice
  4. Courage
  5. Faith
  6. Obedience
Among others.
42 posted on 06/29/2008 4:04:44 PM PDT by shineon
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To: Ron Jeremy

“I have a problem with the slaughtering of children though!”

So, rather than requiring Israel to implement a vast social/child services institution, the Lord delivered innocent children from both their immoral parents and took kids to Heaven.

And the obvious fact is, like a rock thrown into a pond, that when we sin, it affects, to various degrees, others who were not guilty of our sins. That itself can be part of our chastisement.

“But, since you think God judges nations, which ones has he judged in the last 2,000 years?”

Good question, and i believe plenty have. Recently this would include Japan, whose war crimes such as the RAPE OF NANJING did not go unnoticed. Germany is another. America itself is and will be judged by God whom it is at war against. Yes, bad things can happen to good people, but just as Jesus warned that God would judge Israel for their impenitence, so God today does judge nations, in accordance with the light and grace given them.

(1 Th 2:16) “Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”

(Jer 18:7-8) “At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; {8} If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.”


43 posted on 06/29/2008 8:30:08 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Give your sins and life to Him who died your us and rose again. Jesus is Lord.)
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To: MHGinTN
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
44 posted on 06/29/2008 9:34:37 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
45 posted on 06/29/2008 9:37:28 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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