Posted on 06/28/2008 3:25:43 PM PDT by NYer
I suppose that--despite my indication that I did not care to argue this point with you and your seeming agreement--nevertheless when you saw this post (perhaps you and NYer conspired to post it just now in light of Friday's discussion) you felt duty-bound to bring it to my attention in case either I was interested or the Holy Spirit wished to edify me. I hope I am always ready to receive what He has for me; anyway, I did read through it. I notice that you did not argue it personally, substituting others' arguments; I refrain from referring you to others' counterarguments.
My position remains unchanged that I do not now find it compelling to debate this with you, despite this latest provocation, beyond again affirming that I find the arguments presented to be (I shall be charitable and avoid the apt term "ludicrous") unconvincing.
However, having been thus provoked, I do take this nonargumentative liberty of asking whether you (as representing Catholics in general, if I may so dress you for this purpose) feel even any hint of discomfort at your too-lofty perch. That is, to overgeneralize, arrogating to oneself the position and role of sole avenue for salvation (again, I overgeneralize), does it not make you a bit queasy that you join thereby Satan and his prideful attempt to match God and the Pharisees' to essentially do the same? I am not suggesting anything Satanic or Pharisaic, I am pointing out the similarity of your positions: essentially, usurping God's role. You know well what happened to them. I am not suggesting a similar fate for you, I hasten to add--I believe that Catholics can be saved, even as I believe that some Protestants will not be, salvation not depending on the church but rather on the heart. But the history of those who claim they own the ball has not been to win the championship. I know, I know, the keys of the kingdom, etc., etc. As I say, I am not arguing the point. I am asking the human question: does it seem at all risky to you? Tenuous? Pretentious? Does it ever give you any pause? Should it? Just asking.
One reason I ask is that I saw that pride in my father when he converted to Catholicism late in life. He dealt with it very imperfectly, and I trust you now enough to ask, if you would be so good, whether that concerns you. One of my reasons for asking you of all people is your own experience with your wife's conversion--you would know.
NOTE TO BYSTANDERS: This is a personal question just for annalex, based on our existing relationship. I am completely uninterested in anything anyone else might care to say, so please save it.
It is all about belief. People that worship Christ are the “body”. The body that worships Christ is the “church”. The “church” is the “body” of believers. The “church”, as int he building or the “body” of believers, doesn't determine anyones “salvation”. It is ONLY Christ, not the “church”, that determines who is “saved” and who is not “saved”. No mortal in a position of authority determines anyones salvation. It is ONLY Christ that determines this. He sees into your heart. It's not the rituals, traditions or ceremonies you participate in that determines your alvation stauts either.
“Here Christ says, and Paul reaffirms, that the Church will always teach the TRUTH.”
No, the “church” isn’t teaching the truth. It is rare that a church teaches truth today. Christ did NOT say that nor did Paul affirm that.
The church is falling away, today. The Bible teaches this:
2Thes.2:3
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Tim.4:3
[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
One would be smart to 'dump' those church fathers and pick up a dime store bible and find the TRUTH...
Do you have this verse in your Bible?
1Pe 3:21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Or this one: Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Dang those pesky facts
If they believed Jesus was Christ, they were also Christians.
Not a Roman Catholic Gentile in the bunch...
Not a Gentile in the bunch, but the only Christians at the time were Catholics.
Jesus was speaking to individuals, not a Roman Catholic church...THAT is the context...
Those individuals WERE the Catholic Church as it existed at the time.
...The Living God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not some man-made religion...
Well, first "pillar and ground of the truth" modifies "church," not "of the living God" (which is merely a prepositional phrase also modifying "church."
Second, you're right about no 'man-made religion.' The reference was to the Catholic Church, created by God the Father, founded by God the Son and guided to this day by God the Holy Spirit.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the dispensationalist creed.
You are soooo right!
Precisely what some advocate here, the “church” traditions and rituals will NOT gain you anything. It's all about what is in your heart. Many are quite content to do what the Bible says NOT to do:
Matt.6:7
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Matt.15:9
[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mark.7:7
[7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
It is NOT an "interpretation issue". It's rather CLEAR for anyone who cares to follow CHRIST and not fallible mortals with a power hungry agenda.
Some prefer this:
Eph.4:14
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
They don't want to read the Bible. They'd rather listen and follow some fallible mortal with an agenda. Truth isn't important to them and they'd rather trust IMPERFECT HUMANS to determine what they believe and where they wind up when they die - how foolish!
You know Scripture!
Bless you and hopefully you’ll get through to the lost.
He certainly is: the Apostles were the Catholic Church at the time.
Jesus was neither speaking to just the Apostles or disciples...
These are Christ's words at the Last Supper. Who else was there but the Apostles?
The Holy Spirt did not come to show truth to the Catholic church...
No. The Holy Spirit came to show to the world through the Catholic Church, which at the time of the Pentecost was entirely sequestered in the upper room.
The discourse starts in chapter 14, for those that own a bible...
Hmmm. Jesus and the twelve gather for the Last Supper at the beginning of John 13, and the discourse runs through the end of John 17.
Fallible mortals such as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Darby, Machen, Lindsey, LaHaye, et al.
pre·vail –verb (used without object) 1. to be widespread or current; exist everywhere or generally: Silence prevailed along the funeral route. 2. to appear or occur as the more important or frequent feature or element; predominate: Green tints prevail in the upholstery. 3. to be or prove superior in strength, power, or influence (usually fol. by over): They prevailed over their enemies in the battle. 4. to succeed; become dominant; win out: to wish that the right side might prevail.
According to the dictionary, if the gates of Hell did "Prevail" The Catholic Church would be destroyed. I guess your interpreation is off.
The Living God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not some man-made religion...
That is not what the Bible says, As Father of Five quoted:“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15,
You might want to look that one up.
A guy can prove anything by the scripture if he mis-quotes enough scriptures...
I wish you had put this at the beginning of your post, so that we would know what you were planning on right from the start.
Me: It’s rather CLEAR for anyone who cares to follow CHRIST and not fallible mortals with a power hungry agenda.
You: Fallible mortals such as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Darby, Machen, Lindsey, LaHaye, et al.
Me: If you’d bother to read the Bible, you’d know what GOD states. THAT was my point.
Are you telling me I don't read the Bible? That the only ones who read the Bible are the ones who agree with you?
Are you pretending to reading my mind?
The fact that you posted it here indicates that you still remember. I'll also bet that now, as an adult, you can look back on what you heard and forgive Sister for that painful statement. We all heard silly statements, such as that, when we were children. Through faith, I have learned to forgive.
“I’ll also bet that now, as an adult, you can look back on what you heard and forgive Sister for that painful statement.”
I am among the chief sinners, NYer, my occasional refusal to forgive being a sin I am particularly prone to. I doubt Sister thought she was wrong then and if she is still alive I doubt she’d admit to error now. In that persistence she would be in the good company of multiple popes who proclaimed just what she said to our class of first graders.
BTW, I don’t believe that +BXVI believes this, else the images from the Mass at the Vatican today wouldn’t have included the EP. I do wish he’d come out and simply say, once and for all, that those predecessor popes were just plain wrong.
Issue: What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" (extra ecclesiam nulla salus)?
Well ... according to a Nun I had one year for catechism when I was about eight (1956) - and she was like 104 (kidding) - it meant only Catholics can/will go to Heaven. Everyone else will burn in Hell. That scared the heck out of me and I looked at my playmates & schoolmates differently after that. Especially one kid who was a Baptist - I really felt sorry for him.
She also told us not to watch 'Father Knows Best' as it was written by Communists. [At least she was one for two :-)]
“The “church” is just people who have been saved by Jesus Christ. That is all the “church” is - Christian people; and as nice as Christian people are, they have no power to save anyone.
Unfortunately, this definition of ‘the church’ cannot be true, unless Christ is a liar. Look at the Church in context of Scripture. “
The Scriptures you posted don’t prove your point at all. They say NOTHING about a building or an institution. The “church” has always been and always will be the “people”. No apostolic succession, no pope, no institutionalize ritual, simply the shepherd and the flock ministering to each other and the world. Seems to be a point missed by many, not just Catholics.
I’d like to thank all of you who keep the Catholic and Pro-Life ping lists. It is a valuable resource for many.
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