The Universe

Myself | 05/29/08 | Richard Jr.

[tricky_k_1972]

Looking up to the stars tonight, though the clouds and admiring the Creators work, the Great Engineer, the Creator of all the universe, I can't help but admire his creation and all that it implies.

He gave us such a large playground, and if our scientists have interpreted his works correctly, an ever expanding playground.

How can we not work to discover his works, his Creation, and how can we not "Read" and "Study" his works in the vast "Teaching" we call his creation, his universe.

"Be as smart and cunning as the serpent", he has called us to be.

I am in utter awe of His vastness.

I feel sorrow and pity for those whom wish to limit the Creators power to this lonely and small part of the universe he created.

To think that he created all of this simply for us to gaze upon and not explore, to not question, to simply live and die (granted with a place in the Heavens) and not discover his achievements, is a sin and perhaps one of the greatest sins, the sin of ignorance of GOD.

Did he create all of this, the entire universe, for us to remain ignorant of his teachings, for us to ignore his written word in the engineering of the world and universe around us.

I love my God and my Creator in full, and therefore I must work to explore and understand his word in the creation around us.

To not do so is to ignore the word of God.

[tricky_k_1972]

The Great Engineer.

[sinanju]

Never could figure why anyone would think one would have to be anti-science to be religious.

[sagar]

“Never could figure why anyone would think one would have to be anti-science to be religious”

A lot of religious people pretend that the religious scriptures are scientific and answer scientific questions.

[tricky_k_1972]

"A lot of religious people pretend that the religious scriptures are scientific and answer scientific questions."

I think as a corollary is that some "religious" people think that to study science is in some way working against The Almighty,

Where as I believe, to not study science, to not study engineering is to ignore the word of God.

God created the Universe, His Word is written upon it, to ignore His Work is to ignore God.

[LiteKeeper]

SITREP

[hosepipe]

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080520.html

That pic is a pic NOT OF Stars but of GALAXYS.. the whole picture is of GALAXYS.. The distance between each of them is awe inspiring.. as is the distance accross each one.. It amazes me the potential size of this Universe.. I’m not sure I can even compute/grasp it in my head.. What thinking about Stars in the Milky Way(while observing it) did to my mind when I was young.... THIS picture does now.. To think each light in this picture is a Galaxy.. an entire Galaxy... this site has other pictures of multi-galaxys..

[dr_lew]

I note this picture is linked at the genchemist site to an article on "Thermodyanmics and systems" (sic), which contains a comment about the 2nd Law and Evolution. Would I be correct in surmising that you came across it while searching this topic?

[tricky_k_1972]

"I note this picture is linked at the genchemist site to an article on "Thermodyanmics and systems" (sic), which contains a comment about the 2nd Law and Evolution. Would I be correct in surmising that you came across it while searching this topic?"

Nope sorry, I just did an image search for "universe" and saw the picture and liked it, didn't bother to read the topic, I was to interested in getting my thoughts down after looking up at the stars and wanted to have a pic to go with it.

[tricky_k_1972]

Since some have decided to “Go There” which was not my intention at all, let me explain further thoughts:

I want to add, God and only God created the universe.

Nothing he created is a lie.

God does not deceive and therefore his creation is not a deception, it is, in fact, the literal word of God.

The Bible and the Universe are both his creations and neither of his creations can contradict each other, they both are the Word and God does not deceive.

The Catholic Church at one time did not want lay people to read the bible, but only to receive the word from those whom were trained by them to interpret it.

Similarly there are those within the Protestant faith that wish to have science viewed only through the filter of their understanding of the Biblical Word of God(which is ironic considering Galileo was a Catholic)as if they are frightened of His Creation's Word contradicting his Biblical Word.

The Universe was created by God.

The Bible was given to man from God.

God does not lie nor does God deceive.

Neither the Biblical Word nor The Universe are lies nor are they deceptions, any disagreement that is perceived is merely Man's deception of himself or a misinterpretation of EITHER The Biblical Word or the Universe.

[Lancey Howard]

Neither the Biblical Word nor The Universe are lies nor are they deceptions, any disagreement that is perceived is merely Man's deception of himself or a misinterpretation of EITHER The Biblical Word or the Universe.

Post of the month.

[LetTruthBeTold]

The Bible is by no means science book, but there are hints to the things that science has learned. The universe is ever expanding as said in the bible

Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

Words that end in est or eth in the bible mean continual

The heavens are expanding and Einstein related space to fabric.

[SouthDixie]

Amen.

[IDontLikeToPayTaxes]

From wikipedia:

The observable universe contains about 3 to 7 × 1022 stars (30 to 70 Billion Trillion stars), organized in more than 80 billion galaxies.

[Alamo-Girl]

It amazes me the potential size of this Universe..

And in both directions - large and small.

I strongly agree with Wigner's observation of the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences. To me, it is like God's copyright notice on the cosmos:

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. - Psalms 19:1-3

And in this instance I suggest that "large" and "small" of the universe is a matter of the perspective of the observer, what we would call the "observer problem." For those who haven't seen this, click on the following as an illustration of perspective:

Powers of Ten

For instance, P.S. Wesson's theory of Five Dimensional Reality and Two Times suggests that what we observe in four dimensional space/time and call "particles" could be as little as a single particle in a fifth time-like dimension multiply imaged 10⁸⁰ times. IOW, one particle in a time-like dimension would cause the illusion of the universe (four dimensional physical reality) to those of us "anchored" here.

And again, Max Tegmark's Level IV Parallel Universe model is the only closed cosmological model known to me. He posits that what we observe to be "real" as observers in four dimensional space/time are actually mathematical structures which really exist outside of space and time:

A mathematical structure is an abstract, immutable entity existing outside of space and time. If history were a movie, the structure would correspond not to a single frame of it but to the entire videotape. Consider, for example, a world made up of pointlike particles moving around in three-dimensional space. In four-dimensional spacetime — the bird perspective — these particle trajectories resemble a tangle of spaghetti. If the frog sees a particle moving with constant velocity, the bird sees a straight strand of uncooked spaghetti. If the frog sees a pair of orbiting particles, the bird sees two spaghetti strands intertwined like a double helix. To the frog, the world is described by Newton’s laws of motion and gravitation. To the bird, it is described by the geometry of the pasta — a mathematical structure. The frog itself is merely a thick bundle of pasta, whose highly complex intertwining corresponds to a cluster of particles that store and process information. Our universe is far more complicated than this example, and scientists do not yet know to what, if any, mathematical structure it corresponds.

I strongly suspect that in banishing Adam to mortality (Genesis 3) God limited the visual and mental perception of Adamic man to four dimensions (three of space and one of time) thereafter rendering man blind to both the spiritual realm and the full nature and extent of the physical realm:

Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. - Hebrews 13:2

To God be the glory!

[Alamo-Girl]

Oh, and one more point. It is estimated there are 100 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy. That is roughly equivalent to the number of human beings estimated to have ever lived on earth.

To visualize it, there are about 100 billion drops of water in an Olympic sized swimming pool.

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. – Matthew 5:14-16

To God be the glory!

[TXnMA]

Thank you, dear Alamo-Girl, for pinging me to this thread!!!

As you and betty boop surely know, in tricky_k_1972, you have, apparently, introduced me to a true "kindred spirit"! It's amazing how similar to many of my posts are tricky_k_1972's comments on cosmology and the value in studying both of the "records" our Creator left of His handwork!

tricky_k_1972, as a physical chemist and a believer in our Creator and all His mighty works, I often frequent APOD, too. (And, I wish I had been able to travel to the southern hemisphere to see the Comet McNaught vista you posted!) From what you have already said in this thread, I expect that we are in very close agreement!!!

This promises to be a really good thread!!! :-)

[Alamo-Girl]

Hi, dear brother in Christ! I'm so very glad that you and tricky_k_1972 have so much in common and I too look forward to the discussion on this thread!

[MrB]

From the positioning of the Earth in the universe, it is clear that we were intended to discover as well as live.

Read “Privileged Planet” for more details on this exact positioning and setting of the “rules” so that living conditions coincide with discoverability conditions.

[TXnMA]

"Neither the Biblical Word nor The Universe are lies nor are they deceptions, any disagreement that is perceived is merely Man's deception of himself or a misinterpretation of EITHER The Biblical Word or the Universe. "

Nicely done!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A-G & BB, I know you have seen me post almost the identical concept -- but I doubt that I said it quite as well... ;-)

[TXnMA]

"Neither the Biblical Word nor The Universe are lies nor are they deceptions, any disagreement that is perceived is merely Man's deception of himself or a misinterpretation of EITHER The Biblical Word or the Universe. "

Nicely done!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A-G & BB, I know you have seen me post almost the identical concept -- but I doubt that I said it quite as well... ;-)

[MHGinTN]

Many years ago (I'm embarrassed to admit I was a father raising a family at the time), Carl Sagan gave an illustration of what a (5D ?) hypercube would look like--on one of the COSMOS episodes. It strikes me as that is possibly the way God 'sees' each and every human who has ever lived ... our past is stretched back to our beginning and our present is the leading edge of the 'hypercube' which is our lifetime unfolding. It has always been a curious thing to my mind that Jesus showed up in the OT as an adult, and He spent a span of time still hanging around earth following His resurrection, before ascending into Heaven. So I asked myself, didn't one or two of His appearances in the OT happen in what became known later as 'the Galilee'? But then, I don't have birds and frogs to discuss things with on a daily basis ... ;^)

[MHGinTN]

Your stunning picture reminds me of a little valley over in West-by-God Virginia, on the way to the radio astronomy telescope valley. Driving over one night, I stopped in that little valley to observed the star wrapped sky without the interference of Moon glow. The little valley has no earth-bound light sources all the way to the horizon, so the landscape was lite only with star light ... and I could see the pennies I dropped from my pocket when I reached to get my keys out, to open the back of my SUV! Truly, our perceptions in life are dampened by the interference we hardly even notice exists.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed and very well said.

I suspect some do not realize that the Creation itself - both spiritual and physical - is a revelation of God. "All that there is" was created ex nihilo by Him. It did not precede Him and He didn't "have to" do it. It is His will and there is nothing of which anything can be made but God's will, whether His creative will or His permissive will.

We observers still "anchored" to the flesh are traveling a worldline in His Creation. By definition, we suffer from an "observer problem." We ought never be presumptuous.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. – Isaiah 55:8-9

Only God can see "all that there is" all at once. Only He speaks objective Truth. A thing is true because He says it.

To God be the glory!

[TXnMA]

That is one of my favorite "desktop 'wallpaper'" images!

The amazing thing is that it was obtained by having the telescope "stare at" a tiny spot in the sky that you could cover with your fingertip at arm's length. And -- no matter where you point the telescope (that is not obscured by stars in or own galaxy) we observe that the density of galaxies everywhere in the universe is essentially the same.

What an awesome Creator our God is!!!!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

For those following, here is a hypercube in motion:

More on special relativity here

[Alamo-Girl]

And -- no matter where you point the telescope (that is not obscured by stars in or own galaxy) we observe that the density of galaxies everywhere in the universe is essentially the same.

What an awesome Creator our God is!!!!

Amen!

[onedoug]

Leviticus 11:19 uses the Hebrew word "tuf nun shin mem tuf" - "Tinshemet" - to refer to a "bird", then uses the same word in 11:30 to refer to a "reptile".

'Seems interesting to me.

[RightWhale]

The engineer sees The Great Engineer.
The mathematician sees The Great Mathematician.
The poet sees The Great Poet.
I am retired and see The Great Retired Guy. Y’all got your Universe package deal and are now on your own.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I love the links you post, Alamo-Girl. Thank you for them and the ping.

From the thread...

I feel sorrow and pity for those whom wish to limit the Creators power to this lonely and small part of the universe he created.

To think that he created all of this simply for us to gaze upon and not explore, to not question, to simply live and die (granted with a place in the Heavens) and not discover his achievements, is a sin and perhaps one of the greatest sins, the sin of ignorance of GOD.

Here I tend to disagree. I don't think of the earth as "small" and "lonely." I do think God created the earth as the center of His creation, even though science might point us in another direction. Certainly we can and should explore the universe and whatever's out there. But I'm perfectly content to believe this planet is the singular, intentional apple of God's eye.

And I don't see any evidence to the contrary.

I don't believe earth is one of many. It is the one and it was onto this earth Christ was born; Christ, "by whom all things consist."

"To simply live and die" is not so simple at all...

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." -- Acts 17:28

That's as "real" as we can know. And that is neither small nor lonely.

I quoted Hebrews 13:2 to my children just yesterday because it illustrates so well that while we might think we know what's going on in life, it is all God's reality into which we've been placed with our limited abilities and perceptions.

"Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that." -- James 4:13-15

As your example of the frog and the bird showed, our sense of reality is all about perspective. And yet one truth exists.

[MHGinTN]

You have a searching mind ... I think you will enjoy this thread so I’m pinging you to it so you don’t miss it.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"All that there is" was created ex nihilo by Him. It did not precede Him and He didn't "have to" do it. It is His will and there is nothing of which anything can be made but God's will, whether His creative will or His permissive will.

AMEN!

Ultimately, that truth answers every question, and permits life to make as much "sense" as our brains can contain.

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Colossians 1:16-17

[TXnMA]

That photo (centered on the Perseus Cluster of galaxies) does contain roughly a "double handful" of nearby stars. They are the bright, bluish object with "sparkle crosses" (diffraction artifacts).

Interestingly, the difference between their bluish color and the "warmer" colors of the distant galaxies is visible proof of the "red-shift" that astronomers use as a measure of immense distance and as evidence of the velocity of expansion of the universe...

[Alamo-Girl]

LOLOL!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your insights, testimony and especially those beautiful Scriptures!

As your example of the frog and the bird showed, our sense of reality is all about perspective. And yet one truth exists.

So very true. And all we can know of truth is whatever God chooses to reveal to each one of us, individually.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

And I agree that for reasons known only to God, He has especially blessed mankind and this earth.

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? - Psalms 8:3-4

But I am certain that everything is unfolding according to the will of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: - Romans 8:14-16

And His will is that "all that there is" will be reconciled in Jesus Christ.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

.. that in Him all fulness dwell ...

To God be the glory!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear sister in Christ!

[Fichori]

Excellent post!

The only time this world can be considered “lonely” is when one does not have Christ in their heart.

Anytime someone says that science contradicts the bible, we need to remember that science is by definition fallible and scientists are only human and oftentimes project their human presuppositions and lack of understanding into their work.

Science is a useful tool, but it should never be elevated to the level of infallibility.

[betty boop]

A-G & BB, I know you have seen me post almost the identical concept -- but I doubt that I said it quite as well...

Very well indeed, tricky_k_1972! Nicely done!

And yes, you have made this point very clearly yourself, TXnMA. And I totally agree with you and tricky_k_1972. I daresay A-G sees it this way as well.

[TXnMA]

"Similarly there are those within the Protestant faith that wish to have science viewed only through the filter of their understanding of the Biblical Word of God"...

One of my quests in life is to try to understand the root cause(s) of why otherwise-intelligent folks would insist on self-limiting their understanding of both Scripture and Creation as you describe.

Considering that God revealed the truths in Genesis to a scribe (Moses?) who only had at his disposal written language in its earliest, most primitive state (including no vowels) -- and whose understanding was constrained by what his eyes could see and his uneducated mind could conceive -- how can modern believers insist that those few sentences must be a complete and sufficient description of Creation?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am often tempted to ask such folks: "How many galaxies could Moses see?"

Does anyone want to attempt an answer?

[MHGinTN]

One, but he wouldn’t have known that ‘smear’ across the night sky was a galaxy, as in a collection of stars set apart from other collections of stars by so vast a distance.

[betty boop]

...how can modern believers insist that those few sentences must be a complete and sufficient description of Creation?

I like what Francis Schaeffer had to say about the inerrancy of Biblical scripture:

"Gods tells us truly, but not exhaustively."

Which to me imposes a duty: Go Look!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"How many galaxies could Moses see?"

As many as God wanted him to see.

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Mark 8:36

[betty boop]

And I agree that for reasons known only to God, He has especially blessed mankind and this earth.

I have that sense too, strongly. It fills me with wonder...and profound gratitude.

[Alamo-Girl]

I daresay A-G sees it this way as well.

Indeed!

I would add that God the Father has revealed Himself in four ways: 1) through the Person of Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, 2) through the indwelling Holy Spirit, 3) through the Scriptures, and 4) through Creation both spiritual and physical.

Seems to me it would be miserable to close one's mind to any of these.

To God be the glory!

[Fichori]

Considering that God revealed the truths in Genesis to a scribe (Moses?) who only had at his disposal written language in its earliest, most primitive state (including no vowels) -- and whose understanding was constrained by what his eyes could see and his uneducated mind could conceive -- how can modern believers insist that those few sentences must be a complete and sufficient description of Creation? [excerpt]

By not having any preconceived ideas how God Must have done it.
(I'm assuming your talking about the Creation account in Genesis 1)

God's word is wholly sufficient and any time we find it lacking when measured against the fallible human methods of science, we are on thin ice.

BTW, Hebrew was invented by God, and in Genesis 1:31 he proclaimed it to be very good, not primitive:

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 1:31

[hosepipe]

[ I strongly suspect that in banishing Adam to mortality (Genesis 3) God limited the visual and mental perception of Adamic man to four dimensions (three of space and one of time) thereafter rendering man blind to both the spiritual realm and the full nature and extent of the physical realm: ]

Exactly, kind've... at least for now..

[allmendream]

I agree. That is one of the reasons I am a Scientist.

Most Scientists in the U.S. are, like myself, people of faith.

[Alamo-Girl]

One of my quests in life is to try to understand the root cause(s) of why otherwise-intelligent folks would insist on self-limiting their understanding of both Scripture and Creation as you describe.

In my view the doctrines and traditions of men are often the result of man trying to understand God using his own reasoning. If he goes that route, he invariably anthropomorphizes God into a small imagining of a "god" his puny, mortal mind can comprehend.

And I do not believe he does it maliciously but rather sincerely believing that his own efforts to understand God are good even though it would be as if God the Creator could be fully known by a creature, an irrational objective.

In the end though, when such a one weighs anchor from this physical realm - then things will be more clear to him.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. - I Corinthians 13:12

And then he'll know if his efforts were for good or ill.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. - I Corinthians 3:15

To God be the glory!

[Alamo-Girl]

Well and truly said, dearest sister in Christ!

[Alamo-Girl]

It fills me with wonder...and profound gratitude.

Me too. Praise God!!!

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed!