If You Can Be Godly and Wrong, Does Truth Matter? (Protestant Caucus)

Since there are some Arminians who are more godly than some Calvinists and some Calvinists who are more godly than some Arminians, what is the correlation between true knowledge of God and godliness?

The best of both groups have historically admired the godliness of those in the other group. Whitefield, the Calvinist, said of Wesley, the Arminian, “Mr. Wesley I think is wrong in some things; yet I believe...Mr. Wesley, and others, with whom we do not agree in all things, will shine bright in glory” (Wesley and the Men Who Followed, 71).

But the sad thing about our day, unlike the days of Whitefield and Wesley, is that many infer from this that knowing God with greater truth and fullness is not important, since it doesn’t appear to be decisive in what produces godliness. Those who know what the Bible says will be protected from that mistake.

Paul correlates knowing and doing in a way that shows that knowing profoundly influences doing. Fourteen times Paul implies that our sinful behavior would be different if we knew the truth more fully. For example,

All godliness is owing to truth, that is, to God as he is truly known. Truth, known with the mind and loved with the heart, is the way God produces all godliness. You will know the truth and the truth will set you free (John 8:32).

When a more godly person believes something erroneous about God, among other true things, it is not the error that God uses to produce the godliness.

And when a less godly person believes something true about God, among other false things, it is not the truth that his sin uses to produce the ungodliness.

There are various reasons why a person with a more true view of God may be less godly, and the person with a less true view of God may be more godly:

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Ottofire,

THanks for this. This is an important and timely article.

I wish more of us on this forum would take seriously the complicated relationship between believing the Truth and living a godly life.

As an Orthodox Christian, my wife and I number among my close and dear friends a family of Reformed evangelical Christians. We have strong differences in our viewpoints (and some very surprising agreements) but we are able to enjoy discussing those issues in real fellowship because we all know that the others love the Lord as we do and are trusting Him for salvation even as we disagree how He saves us. We have even gone on vacation together.

Back in April, markomalley suggested a “respectful dialog” kind of thread for the Religion Forum but it went nowhere. That’s a shame. We need a way to go hammer and tongs about what the truth is WITHOUT resorting to the straw man accusations, name calling, insults, etc. that seem to pervade this forum.

I would love to discuss how we could make that work

The objection by some back then is that we would need to pull our punches and not say what needs to be said. We would have to theological wusses. NOT SO! I have always found that “robust” discussion that aims at maximizing light and minimizing heat can help people in their walk with God and that heated attacks accomplish NOTHING in spiritual growth.

GOOD POINTS.

What does it mean to KNOW God or The Truth?

The woman caught in adultery KNEW much more about forgiveness than any spiritual leader of the last 2,000 years untouched by such depths of sin . . . I’d wager than some seminary student’s who’s PhD was written on forgiveness.

Head knowledge isn’t always useful, it seems.

“Knowledge woven into the fabric of our being by the loom of traumatic adversity leaves an unmistakably beautiful, practical and durable pattern.” —Da Ai Xin

As Paul also says . . . knoweledge PUFFS UP.

And, I have yet to read of any Calvinist or Arminian magicsterical being a great deal more knowledgeable about spiritual maturity than Gramps down at the Country Store. And most are a good deal more off the wall much more of the time.

Come to think of it . . . I have a hard time thinking of very many members of such Magicstericals who even had decent family lives and relationships.

Suffice it to say, I don’t think there’s a positive direct correlation between knowledge and spiritual maturity or sanctification.

Part of me almost thinks that the shortest route to spiritual maturity is a seemingly endless series of devastating mistakes.

We don’t seem to learn a lot—we don’t seem to get knowledge very much below our eyeballs when we are comfortable, sailing smoothly and particularly when we are acclaimed as wise and erudite by all the serfs beneath us.

Of course Holy Spirit has to have a part in infecting every cell and fiber of our being with TRUTH THAT FREES else the job will be quite spotty and not well soaked in.

He seems to have the easiest time of it when circumstances have so broken us that there’s lots of cracks and surfaces for Him to slip Truth in through and to surfaces to coat with Truth.

I’m reminded of grog. Grog is a pottery pot that’s been bisque fired—not to maturity but sufficiently to take a glaze well. Then, normally, a pot is refired with the glaze on. However, grog is a bisque fired pot pulverized into granules the size of sand.

The benefit of grog is that the pot is more stable in the throwing and in the firing and shrinks less.

Seems like I’ve been bisque fired and pulverized to sand many times. I like to think it’s been worthwhile . . . hopefully for something a bit more beautiful and . . . uhhh . . . functionally esthetic than a spitoon or chamber pot.

I do believe that Scripture memorized, daily bathed in . . . helps impart Holy Spirit knowledge to our bone marrow . . . in a way that brings fruit, life.

On the other hand, the Pharisees had the whole thing memorized and were sons of satan.

I think it’s often useful when we are full of our own knowledge and strutting about in it . . . to get alongside someone who often disagrees with us and ask him to be candid about our constructions on reality and particularly about the way we are handling knowledge . . . and pride.

And we all should know that being DOERS OF THE WORD is worth a trillion or more merely hearings of the Word.

Silver and gold have I none . . . nor seminary PhD’s nor lawyerese . . . Such as I have, give I you—in The Name of Jesus, get up and walk. Drink in the Enlivening Living Word . . . Let His knowledge of Life fill every cell and fiber and strengthen your bones and your walk.

Then maybe “Christian” need not be an embarrassing overstatement applied to you, or me.

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