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Violence in Early Mormonism - Was It All Unjust Persecution?
MRM ^ | Bill McKeever

Posted on 07/07/2008 3:34:44 AM PDT by Gamecock

Members of the LDS Church often make a big issue of the fact that their ancestors faced terrible persecutions during the early years of the LDS movement. To most people, Missourian sites like Independence, Liberty, Far West, and Caldwell County mean very little. Yet to the faithful Latter-day Saint, these places carry a great amount of significance.

It is true that the Mormons were driven from several states before finally arriving in what is known today as the state of Utah, and this violence can never be condoned. However, with all of the talk of the persecution early Mormons faced, there is rarely any discussion as to the role played by the Mormons in those early years. To be sure, the average Mormon has no idea that both sides had their share of abuses in human rights. To many Latter-day Saints, their forebears were simply innocent victims.

It would be wrong to say that the Mormons were treated badly simply because they had theological disagreements with their new neighbors. In his book The Mormon Hierarchy - Origins of Power, former LDS historian D. Michael Quinn wrote,

"Fear of being overwhelmed politically, socially, culturally, economically by Mormon immigration was what fueled anti-Mormonism wherever the Latter-day Saints settled during Joseph Smith's lifetime. Religious belief, as non-Mormons understood it, had little to do with anti-Mormonism. On the other hand, by the mid-1830s Mormons embraced a religion that shaped their politics, economics and society. Conflict was inevitable" (p.91).

On page 82 of the book, The Story of the Latter-day Saints, LDS historians James B. Allen and Glen M. Leonard wrote, "Impressed by the Mormon image of group solidarity, some old settlers expressed fears that as a group the Mormons were determined to take over all of their lands and business."

In his book, The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, historian Stephen C. LeSueur notes that "non-Mormon land speculators could not hope to compete with the Mormons, who were purchasing large tracts of land with Church funds," and that the huge immigration of Mormons to the area also "threatened to displace older towns as the political and commercial centers for their counties" (p.3).

Arrogance on the part of the Mormon settlers certainly did not help the situation. As Allen and Leonard write,

"The Saints themselves may not have been totally without blame in the matter. The feelings of the Missourians, even though misplaced, were undoubtedly intensified by the rhetoric of the gathering itself. They were quick to listen to the boasting of a few overzealous Saints who too-loudly declared a divine right to the land. As enthusiastic millennialists, they proclaimed that the time of the gentiles was short, and they were perhaps too quick to quote the revelation that said that 'the Lord willeth that the disciples and the children of men should open their hearts, even to purchase this whole region of country, as soon as time will permit" (The Story of the Latter-day Saints, p. 83).

Smith's leadership didn't help ease the tension. For instance, when First Counselor Sidney Rigdon gave a fiery "Fourth of July Oration" (1838) that threatened the state of Missouri with what he called a "war of extermination," Smith made this speech into a pamphlet. Also adding to the Missourians distress were the rumors of Mormon "Danites," a secret band of Mormon hit men known to intimidate non-Mormon "Gentiles" and LDS dissenters.

The acts of violence brought against the Mormon settlers and the fact that the Mormons felt they would not receive proper redress compelled them to retaliate. Writes LeSueur,

"Although Mormon military action was generally initiated in response to reports of violence, the Mormons tended to overreact and in some instances retaliated against innocent citizens. Their perception of themselves as the chosen people, their absolute confidence in their leaders, and their determination not to be driven out led Mormon soldiers to commit numerous crimes. The Mormons had many friends among the Missourians, but their military operations undercut their support in the non-Mormon community" (The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, p.4).

LeSueur believes much of the blame for the "plundering and burning committed by Mormon soldiers in Daviess County" can be laid at the feet of Joseph Smith himself.

I have heard Latter-day Saints justify these actions by saying the frustrations experienced by the Saints would seem to warrant retaliation. While I may sympathize with their desire to "respond in kind," we must keep in mind that in doing so the moral high ground is lost. Once you lower yourself to the level of your enemy, you can no longer claim to be guiltless in the situation. This, unfortunately, is what many Mormons do.

Attempts to get along in Missouri proved fruitless. Both sides blamed the other, and each claimed to be the defender rather than the aggressor. The violence came to a head in late 1838 when a group of Missouri militia, led by Captain Samuel Bogart, moved through Ray County disarming Mormon settlers and ordering them to leave. Reports circulated among the Mormons that Bogart's men had burned and plundered several Mormon homes in their two-day march. Though there is no evidence to support this claim, LeSueur writes that it was readily believed by Mormon leaders (p.133).

On October 24, two Mormon spies were captured by Bogart's men and taken to their camp on Crooked River. In response, a band of over 50 Mormons, led by LDS Apostle David Patten, engaged in a firefight with Bogart's men. When the Mormons drew their swords and charged the camp, the militia fled, leaving one dead and another man wounded. Patten himself was mortally wounded in the battle. Two Mormon soldiers, coming upon the wounded and unconscious militiaman by the name of Samuel Tarwater, mercilessly mutilated the man's face with their swords and left him for dead.

When listing the atrocities brought against the LDS people in Missouri, the massacre at Haun's Mill always seems to come to the forefront. Speaking of the persecution faced by Mormons in the past, LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote:

"We have staggered under the iron fist of persecution during our whole latter-day history, and we know that hatred and ill will and death will continue to be spewed out upon us until the coming end of the world. We have been driven and scourged and slain; the blood of our prophets stains Illinois; at Haun's Mill the innocent blood of the martyrs for truth cries unto the Lord of Hosts; and on frozen and desolate hills, across half a continent, lie the lonely graves of suffering saints who chose death in preference to the creeds of compulsion of a decadent Christendom" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, pp. 656-657).

McConkie's dramatic rhetoric fails to take into account the fact that the Haun's Mill massacre took place just one week after the battle of Crooked River. Quinn writes:

"A generally unacknowledged dimension of both the extermination order and the Haun's Mill massacre, however, is that they resulted from Mormon actions in the Battle of Crooked River. Knowingly or not, Mormons had attacked state troops, and this had a cascade effect… upon receiving news of the injuries and death of state troops at Crooked River, Governor Boggs immediately drafted his extermination order on 27 October 1838 because the Mormons 'have made war upon the people of this state.' Worse, the killing of one Missourian and mutilation of another while he was defenseless at Crooked River led to the mad-dog revenge by Missourians in the slaughter at Haun's Mill" (Origins of Power, p.100).

The Mormons would eventually be forced to leave Missouri and settle in Nauvoo, Illinois. Controversy, however, would not disappear. When Smith became the target in a newspaper known as the Nauvoo Expositor, he ordered the destruction of the press. This action caused no small disturbance, and in order to insure order, Smith called out his standing army (The Nauvoo Legion) and placed the city under martial law. Illinois Governor Ford felt the only way the problem could be solved was by a trial to be held in Carthage, the county seat. Although Smith was in the process of fleeing to the west, he was persuaded by friends to turn himself in. A gripping tale of persecution and unjust imprisonment is told during the tour of the Carthage Jail. The guide tells how Joseph Smith claimed that he was going to Carthage as a "lamb to the slaughter" (D&C

135:4). However, such a description of Joseph Smith's final moments is hardly close to the truth, as John Taylor's account in volume seven of the Documentary History of the Church shows:

"Elder Cyrus H. Wheelock came in to see us, and when he was about leaving drew a small pistol, a six-shooter, from his pocket, remarking at the same time, Would any of you like to have this?' Brother Joseph immediately replied, `Yes, give it to me,' whereupon he took the pistol, and put it in his pantaloons pocket. The pistol was a six-shooting revolver, of Allen's patent; it belonged to me, and was one that I furnished to Brother Wheelock when he talked of going with me to the east, previous to our coming to Carthage…I was sitting at one of the front windows of the jail, when I saw a number of men, with painted faces, coming around the corner of the jail, and aiming towards the stairs. The other brethren had seen the same, for, as I went to the door, I found Brother Hyrum Smith and Dr. Richards already leaning against it, They both pressed against the door with their shoulders to prevent its being opened, as the lock and latch were comparatively useless. While in this position, the mob, who had come upstairs, and tried to open the door, probably thought it was locked, and fired a ball through the keyhole; at this Dr. Richards and Brother Hyrum leaped back from the door, with their faces towards it; almost instantly another ball passed through the panel of the door, and struck Brother Hyrum on the left side of the nose, entering his face and head. At the same instant, another ball from the outside entered his back, passing through his body and striking his watch. The ball came from the back, through the jail window, opposite the door, and must, from its range, have been fired from the Carthage Greys, who were placed there ostensibly for our protection, as the balls from the firearms, shot close by the jail, would have entered the ceiling, we being in the second story, and there never was a time after that when Hyrum could have received the latter wound. Immediately, when the ball struck him, he fell flat on his back, crying as he fell, `I am a dead man!' He never moved afterwards. I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, `Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died, I had in my hands a large, strong hickory stick, brought there by Brother Markham, and left by him, which I had seized as soon as I saw the mob approach; and while Brother Joseph was firing the pistol, I stood close behind him" (pp. 101-103).

Having taken this tour twice (once in 1980 and another in 1998), I noticed that both times the mention of the smuggled gun was left out. In fact, when the subject of the gun was brought up in the 1998 tour by a Christian in the crowd, we were told that it was not smuggled (it was "brought in") and that the shootout was not a "gun battle." This is an incredible game of semantics. The fact that Smith did try to defend himself disqualifies him from being described in the same manner as our Lord during His arrest, trial, and death (Acts 8:32).

After Smith's demise, things would be quiet for a time. Eventually, however, troubles between the Mormons and their Gentile neighbors would resurface. With little hope to see things resolved, plans were being made by the LDS leadership to leave Illinois. On August 23, 1845, a strategy was approved for an expedition beyond the Rocky Mountains. The first company, composed of 143 men, 3 women, and 2 children, would leave in mid-April. Three and a half months later they would arrive in the Salt Lake Valley.

Even with my strong views regarding the errors of the Mormon faith, I will be the first to denounce religious persecution, as it is properly defined, against any people, Mormons included. I say properly defined because many Mormons feel that any verbal disagreement with their faith is a type of persecution. However, it gets a little tiring to hear of Mormons constantly pointing to their 19th Century persecutions as if this is some sort of sign of God's divine approval on the LDS Church. If violence against a certain faith were the only way to determine truth, then certainly the Mormons themselves would have to recognize that our Christian faith was just as viable as theirs. Can a Mormon, off the top of his head, recall when the last Mormon was killed just because he was a Mormon? Certainly we have heard of Mormons being tragically killed while serving missions, but these cases involve circumstances other than true martyrdom (robberies, car accidents, being mistaken for CIA agents, etc). On the other hand, it is not uncommon to hear of Christians around the world who are being killed because they refuse to denounce their belief that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. While martyrdom seems to be a thing of the past for the Mormons, it is a common occurrence among those who have placed their total trust in the Jesus of the Bible.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History
KEYWORDS: christian; history; lds; mormon
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1 posted on 07/07/2008 3:34:45 AM PDT by Gamecock
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To: P-Marlowe; Tennessee Nana; greyfoxx39; Elsie

**The fact that Smith did try to defend himself disqualifies him from being described in the same manner as our Lord during His arrest, trial, and death (Acts 8:32).**

Tthe same can be said for any comparison with the Martyrs of the true church, who went to their deaths for the most part, without struggle.


2 posted on 07/07/2008 3:38:06 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Gamecock

Search for “Mountain Meadow Massacre”. An Arkansas wagon train was attacked and every man, woman, and child was murdered.


3 posted on 07/07/2008 4:57:36 AM PDT by seemoAR
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To: greyfoxx39

Ping.


4 posted on 07/07/2008 6:17:41 AM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: seemoAR; colorcountry; Pan_Yans Wife; MHGinTN; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; Osage Orange; ...

Ping


5 posted on 07/07/2008 6:25:15 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Tagline on vacation during the grand experiment.)
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To: Gamecock

The midwest was a rough place back then.


6 posted on 07/07/2008 6:28:20 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: seemoAR

They took children under the age of eight and farmed them out to other mormon families. Eventually the kids were found.


7 posted on 07/07/2008 6:34:50 AM PDT by waxer1 (What exactly is meant by "we are going to take our country back")
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To: Gamecock
The following is a good summary.

Can a Mormon, off the top of his head, recall when the last Mormon was killed just because he was a Mormon? Certainly we have heard of Mormons being tragically killed while serving missions, but these cases involve circumstances other than true martyrdom (robberies, car accidents, being mistaken for CIA agents, etc).

On the other hand, it is not uncommon to hear of Christians around the world who are being killed because they refuse to denounce their belief that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. While martyrdom seems to be a thing of the past for the Mormons, it is a common occurrence among those who have placed their total trust in the Jesus of the Bible.

8 posted on 07/07/2008 6:36:21 AM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
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To: Gamecock
I like to keep things simple, to focus effort on the obvious, so when I read this:

"Although Mormon military action was generally initiated in response to reports of violence, the Mormons tended to overreact and in some instances retaliated against innocent citizens. Their perception of themselves as the chosen people, their absolute confidence in their leaders, and their determination not to be driven out led Mormon soldiers to commit numerous crimes. The Mormons had many friends among the Missourians, but their military operations undercut their support in the non-Mormon community" (The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, p.4).

I have to wonder why a faith needs a military, why they partake of "military operations" if they are not intending to take over another's land, to seize power and control, for that is a military does. If it is for defense, well that's the government's job.

9 posted on 07/07/2008 6:40:12 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: Gamecock

Orrin Porter Rockwell

10 posted on 07/07/2008 6:41:17 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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To: ejonesie22
Megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur...


11 posted on 07/07/2008 6:43:53 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

Wild Bill Hickman

12 posted on 07/07/2008 6:48:12 AM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

That seems to carry on today...


13 posted on 07/07/2008 6:49:45 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

He looks completely insane.


14 posted on 07/07/2008 6:50:03 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

John D Lee

15 posted on 07/07/2008 6:53:35 AM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Gamecock
THREE MORE EXAMPLES ...

SIDNEY RIGDON'S SALT SERMON – JUNE 17, 1838

Preaching about Mormons who disagree with Smith: "Ye are the salt of the earth, but if the salt hath lost its savor, wherewith shall the earth be salted? It is henceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men … If the country cannot be freed of these men in any other way, I will assist to trample them down or erect a gallows on the square of Far West and hand them up as they did the gamblers at Vicksburg, and it would be an act at which the angels would smile with approbation." References here.

SIDNEY RIGDON'S JULY 4, 1838 SERMON

Preaching about Gentiles: "Our cheeks have been given to the smiters, and our heads to those who have plucked off the hair. We have not only, when smitten on one cheek turned the other, but we have done it again, and again, and again, until we are wearied of being smitten, and tired of being trampled upon … But from this day and hour, we will suffer it no more … and that mob that comes in us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them til the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us; for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed ... We this day then proclaim ourselves free, with a purpose and a determination that never can be broken – No never! No never!! No never!!!" References here.

Following Rigdon's speech, the crowd led by Smith broke into wild cheering and then shouted in unison with a thunder that carried over the prairies: "Hosanna, hosanna to god and the lamb!"

SMITH'S OCTOBER 14, 1838 DECLARATION OF WAR IN MISSOURI

"If the people [of Missouri] come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Quran or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us – Joseph Smith or the Sword" – Joseph Smith, Jr. History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 167.

16 posted on 07/07/2008 7:26:59 AM PDT by Zakeet (Be thankful we don't get all the government we pay for)
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To: Gamecock


17 posted on 07/07/2008 7:33:40 AM PDT by Zakeet (Be thankful we don't get all the government we pay for)
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To: Gamecock

Interesting hit piece. What are you people going to do if we start posting hit pieces on your churches?


18 posted on 07/07/2008 7:40:03 AM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
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To: Old Mountain man

And just what about the above is wrong?


19 posted on 07/07/2008 7:47:47 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Zakeet
Amazing how their own documents present this information, yet we are bashing.

Maybe that's what we have been doing. In LDS speak “bashing” means “the quoting of our works by outsiders”...

20 posted on 07/07/2008 7:50:34 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: Gamecock

If you are too illiterate to even read that opinionated “book report” that’s posted, there really is no hope for you.


21 posted on 07/07/2008 7:52:03 AM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
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To: Gamecock
Pitches, GC, pitches.

He wants your thread closed. Presenting facts, especially with citations, and more over citations of actual LDS documents, is a bad thing, and must be removed from public places...

22 posted on 07/07/2008 7:52:32 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: Zakeet
From the Salt Lake City Tribune today:

SLC author: Army, Mormon settlers tried to hide Bear River Massacre

 

  "Unlike previous writings on the massacre - a Utah event that happened in what turned out to be Idaho - Miller's book probes the relationships among the three central players: the Shoshones, the military and the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who settled the region.
    And it delves into the way history has treated - or, as some believe, ignored - the massacre.


    Miller agrees, in part, with Brigham Madsen, the retired University of Utah historian whose ground-breaking work 25 years ago first gave credence to Shoshone claims it was a massacre and not a battle.
    Madsen contended the engagement was lost to history because the nation at the time was more interested in Civil War battles than in fights with American Indians in a remote corner of the West. 
    But Miller argues there is a further explanation as to why a massacre of at least 250 Shoshones fell into obscurity.


    It was not in the interest of key players - the military and the Mormons - to remember, and the decimated Northwestern Bands of the Shoshone had no voice in the nation that came to surround them. "

23 posted on 07/07/2008 7:53:24 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Tagline on vacation during the grand experiment.)
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To: Old Mountain man

***If you are too illiterate to even read that opinionated “book report” that’s posted, there really is no hope for you.***

WOW! A Mormon that just might not be a good neighbor! < tongue-in-cheek>


24 posted on 07/07/2008 7:59:23 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Gamecock; Osage Orange

Whatever you do, don’t “annoy” him.


25 posted on 07/07/2008 8:20:20 AM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: Graybeard58

Best way to avoid that is to not reply to him, or those like him, at all...


26 posted on 07/07/2008 8:26:46 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: Gamecock

A neighbor that does not accuse his neighbors of violence and imply that he has blood on his hands.


27 posted on 07/07/2008 8:31:21 AM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
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To: Old Mountain man; Elsie; Tennessee Nana; P-Marlowe; Graybeard58; Osage Orange; greyfoxx39
Did I say that you, OMm has blood on your hands?

NO!

My comment was based solely on the behavior directed at me.

28 posted on 07/07/2008 8:45:11 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Gamecock

ROFLOL!


29 posted on 07/07/2008 8:46:28 AM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
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To: greyfoxx39

30 posted on 07/07/2008 9:00:21 AM PDT by Godzilla (Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.)
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To: ejonesie22

“He”

What a little coward.


31 posted on 07/07/2008 9:17:42 AM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
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To: Old Mountain man

“What are you people going to do if we start posting hit pieces on your churches?”

You mean, like the part of the pre-81 temple ritual where Christian preachers and teaching is mocked as being in the pay of Satan?


32 posted on 07/07/2008 11:43:20 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (McCain is the best candidate of the Democrat party.)
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To: TheThirdRuffian

Sorry, but I don’t know what you are talking about. Pre-’81 I was listening to Baptist preachers howling and whining and demanding money in the Baptist Church. So I didn’t join the Church until 1994. And it is my experience that most of the so-called preachers are self-mocking.


33 posted on 07/07/2008 12:00:04 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
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To: Gamecock
To be sure, the average Mormon has no idea that both sides had their share of abuses in human rights. To many Latter-day Saints, their forebears were simply innocent victims.

+++++++++++++++++

I guess that the very large group of LDS living around here are not part of the average.

This author has some good facts, and some bad conclusions.

34 posted on 07/07/2008 12:16:33 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: ejonesie22; SkyPilot

“... little coward.”

FYI, this is very funny. Just watch our resident grump slink off to his mountain the moment SkyPilot offers the slightest hint of theological debate.


35 posted on 07/07/2008 12:20:02 PM PDT by Enosh (†)
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To: Enosh; SkyPilot

Oh, Lordy, he mentioned the SkyPilot. Oh, I’m so afraid.

Is he gonna do some creative editing to make a point? Shoot, I can do that too!


36 posted on 07/07/2008 12:22:23 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
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To: ejonesie22
I have to wonder why a faith needs a military, why they partake of “military operations” if they are not intending to take over another's land,

+++++++++++++=

I would have to look it up to find which settlements this is true for, The town militia was state sponsored with the town leaders at its head, like the many other towns around.

Since as the author said, the LDS gathered together, that made the town militia made up of the citizens of the town.

37 posted on 07/07/2008 12:22:48 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: Gamecock
However, such a description of Joseph Smith's final moments is hardly close to the truth

++++++++++++++++

you will notice that the author took two different happenings and tried to make them one.

Works good on those who have not studied the subject.

38 posted on 07/07/2008 12:25:21 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: Enosh

It was adorable, wasn’t it...


39 posted on 07/07/2008 12:29:09 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: Old Mountain man
In his book, The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, historian Stephen C. LeSueur notes that “non-Mormon land speculators could not hope to compete with the Mormons, who were purchasing large tracts of land with Church funds,” and that the huge immigration of Mormons to the area also “threatened to displace older towns as the political and commercial centers for their counties” (p.3).

++++

I read here a while back that there was something about the time to pay for the developed land had come about and was to be paid by the settlers, at the price the land was worth before being developed. Some sort of delayed payment to give the settlers time to make the money necessary to buy the land.

Sinse the LDS, who developed the land, were no longer there, the new owners were able to buy the land at the price the original owners would have payed.

Many of the new owners were the leaders of the community that drove the LDS out, leaving a question about the timing.

Do you remember seeing the article and where it was?

40 posted on 07/07/2008 12:35:12 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: fproy2222

I remember it vaguely but I don’t remember the publication. Remember the things that any homicide cop will tell you: if the murder isn’t about sex, follow the money.


41 posted on 07/07/2008 12:38:44 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Official FR PITA)
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To: Old Mountain man

“Sorry, but I don’t know what you are talking about. . . joined in 1994”

Me, I would strive to know about the theology and teachings of a place that claims to be the “true church” to see if maybe, just maybe, its teaching were theologically consistent -— or perhaps just change with the wind.

Here is a link to the pre-1981 ritual:

http://nowscape.com/mormon/mormcr1.htm#part_10


42 posted on 07/07/2008 12:51:57 PM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (McCain is the best candidate of the Democrat party.)
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To: fproy2222
Joseph Smith had a private militia, a private army for his city in Illinois, many of whom were former members of “Danites” vigilante group. The state did give Smith broad powers in creating Nauvoo, including the right to form a group of soldiers. I find it odd that he felt the need to do so. I am very curious why a prophet needs an army.

Also it did not take Illinois long to regret the decision and this "Militia" became “extra-legal” for the remainder of it's existence. It was never formally a “sanctioned” part of the Illinois militia organization, though they did finally make up the Utah National Guard in 1894 after much federal pressure.

43 posted on 07/07/2008 1:05:08 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: Old Mountain man; Enosh; Godzilla; Zakeet; greyfoxx39; Colofornian; Tennessee Nana; MHGinTN; ...
Oh, Lordy, he mentioned the SkyPilot. Oh, I’m so afraid.

I thought you didn't want me to post to you anymore?

So I didn't.

But since you did, how about we talk - in a civil manner.

Concerning this particular thread, I found the arguments that Joeseph Smith was not a "martry" at all to be with foundation - simply because Smith was in jail for offenses which would be considered criminal even today....to wit:

- Threats and Assault {Intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative}

- Destruction of Private Property {Willful injury to private building and or property. Damage to materials of construction project. Arson. Trespass, generally, and other offenses.}

- Felonious Sexual Assault {Engages in sexual penetration with a person, other than his legal spouse, who is 13 years of age or older and under 16 years of age where the age difference between the actor and the other person is 3 years or more}**

**Joseph Smith's youngest sexual assault victim was 14 years old. Her name was HELEN MAR KIMBALL

______________________________________________________________________

You won't find Jesus Christ's history in such a terrible shambles and horrific mess such as this. He was a true martyr - and He paid for all of our sins with His blood.

The biggest problem with Joseph Smith Old Mountain man was his pursuit of women. His adulterous lust led to his downfall.

Our Sunday's sermon was about the attitude we should have as Christian believers. Paul was literally in chains in Phillipi. Yet, he rejoiced in that, because he knew he was preaching to the Pretorian Guard (the elite to Caesar) who were chained to him to guard him. He took joy in the fact that the cause of Christ was being spread in the open.

12Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel. 13As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard[a] and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. 14Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly. 15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.[b] 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, 19for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.[c] 20I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

Philippians 1: 12-20

I admire Paul's attitude towards the cause of Jesus Christ. He wanted to either live or die to spread the good news of Christ to the lost.

Joseph Smith wanted to suppress the publication of his sins and crimes in a newspaper, and he murdered people before he was himself killed before he could kill any more.

That is quite a difference.

One last thing - the Masonic details and their use in Mormonism should trouble you greatly.

If you have any questions about them, Freeper Zakeet can send you information.

Source.

Thanks.

44 posted on 07/07/2008 4:05:15 PM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
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To: SkyPilot

Oh my, that ‘star’ on the right is most telling. They honor Baphomet and don’t even care! I guess, since they claim The Holy Spirit is their spirit brother, satanic symbols are more acceptable.


45 posted on 07/07/2008 4:31:30 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN
That is from the Nauvoo Temple.

It is the Inverted Pentagram.

Used in witchcraft and occult rituals to conjure up evil spirits. Satanists use it 2 points up and pagans use it one point up.

I am sure the ridicule is about to come, but that does not negate the facts here. The FBI recognizes this symbol when investigating Satanic cults and crimes.

Now....what is it doing on the Nauvoo Temple?

46 posted on 07/07/2008 4:57:13 PM PDT by SkyPilot ("I wasn't in church during the time when the statements were made.")
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To: SkyPilot

Using facts...

What a low blow...


47 posted on 07/07/2008 5:49:25 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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To: ejonesie22

What was that that R.R. said? “Everybody is entitled to their own facts but not their own opinion”

No, that wasn’t it. Something along those lines somewhere.


48 posted on 07/07/2008 5:53:41 PM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: SkyPilot; MHGinTN
That is from the Nauvoo Temple. It is the Inverted Pentagram. Now....what is it doing on the Nauvoo Temple?

Obviously it is one of their "Sacred" Secrets. My guess is that it is representative of the Angel who visited Joseph Smith and brought him the golden plates.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV)

49 posted on 07/07/2008 5:55:39 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Graybeard58

Yeah, but some how it fits in this case....


50 posted on 07/07/2008 6:01:13 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
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