Posted on 07/09/2008 4:24:09 AM PDT by johnstown
Surveys show a growing number of Roman Catholics say they are going to vote for pro-killing-womb-infants B. Hussein Obama.
Yet the official Catholic position is definitely pro-life. In addition, John McCain states he is pro-life. Then why are Catholics going against the moral stance of their church?
The answer of course is individualized and confusing. Yet no matter the answer, Christ weeps for the children slain.
Thousands upon thousands of little ones are discarded from females’ bodies. This is the Old Testament pagan idol Moloch set up throughout the world. Moloch was where mothers brought their offspring, placing them on the cold idol’s hands to be burnt alive in the flames beneath the outstretched arms.
Christ said that He is “the Way, the Truth and the Life.” It is Christ who creates life at conception. Therefore, when wicked mortals kill that life, it is Christ who weeps.
Every time an unborn boy or girl is murdered, a soul enters heaven. These tiny ones belong to Christ. Therefore, when they are cruelly done away with, Christ in mercy receives them into glory.
Christ, the Alpha and Omega, has the last word concerning every mortal’s eternal destiny, all the more so the defenseless infants. Christ said of the children, “Of such is the Kingdom of God.”
The Bible is exceptionally clear that womb infants are humans. One passage in particular accents this. It is John the Baptist still in his mother’s womb. When Mary came to visit relative Elizabeth, the Bible states that Elizabeth’s womb baby leapt for joy.
Mere body tissue does not know joy. Only mortals can experience joy. Therefore, unborn baby John’s joy was that of a human being.
The journey is long and painful for pro-lifers; yet they do not quit. Why? Because they know that God’s ethic is on their side. Also, they believe that every unborn child is just that—a child created by Christ. Consequently, pro-lifers desire to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ with clean hands and pure heart. So they stay the course.
Biblical pro-lifers believe God’s Word: Hebrews 9:27: It is appointed unto men once to die, but after that the judgment.
They take seriously the moment following death: Romans 14:10-12: For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
The war will always be. There will be those intent on killing the unborn. There will be those standing in the way of the killers. God’s curse will come upon the entrenched wicked. God’s blessing abides upon the obedient.
In the meantime, Christ weeps for the little ones wiped out. Yet in His weeping, He also escorts them into the safe haven—heaven’s peace where no abortuary stands.
FOOTNOTE: THE BIBLE AND ABORTION
The Bible speaks of a fetus as a person, not simply tissue that can be discarded if found to be a bother or nuisance. Since the fetus is a person from the moment of conception, then the destroying of the fetus is killing a person. "In the past, some people have mistakenly speculated that perhaps the body might be in the process of formation for some time, and then 'God breathes a soul into it.' They had it backward. The life that is present forms matter into a body for itself' (Joseph Breig, "Life Forms Matter," The Catholic News, Jan. 24, 1974, p. 8).
"Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? Did you not pour me out like milk ... and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit" (Job 10:8-12 NIV).
"Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name...and now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant..." (Isaiah 49:1, 5).
"The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations’" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).
In the following passages we note that personality is ascribed to the unborn.
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that fully well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13-16).
"Sons are a heritage from the LORD, children a reward from him" (Psalm 127:3).
Exodus 21:22-25 relates how Israel was to judge a circumstance relating to the death of the unborn:
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
All of the latter deals with unintentional hurt that comes to a pregnant woman; how much more will divine penalty come upon those who intentionally discard the fetus? The Gospel of Luke ascribes personality to the fetus within Elizabeth:
"When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit... As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (1:41, 44).
Mere tissue does not leap for joy; only personhood leaps for joy. The Bible regards the fetus as having personality. In Galatians, Paul speaks of himself as a person while still in his mother's womb, but more a person consecrated by God for a holy mission (compare Jeremiah 1:5 for the same accent):
"But when God, who set me apart from birth, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles..." (Gal. 1: 15-16).
Since the Bible regards the fetus as personality, then the aborting of the fetus is murdering personality.
Some verses from Scripture dealing with murder are then appropriate for study, such as Genesis 9:6: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." Also, read Exodus 23:7: "Have nothing to do with a false charge, and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty." Note I Peter 4:15: "If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer..."
If the Republic returned to the biblical definition of personhood, we would defend every womb child.
John Adams said the following:
"Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
Andrew Jackson said the following:
"The BIBLE is the rock on which our Republic rests."
Daniel Webster:
"If we abide by the principles taught in the BIBLE, our country will go on prospering."
"For all the talk of freedom and self-determination, the abortion movement is at its heart a movement denying rights to a silent segment of humanity and soliciting public sanction, support and subsidy to its own cause" (Donald P. Shoemaker, ABORTION, THE BIBLE AND THE CHRISTIAN, Hayes Publishing Co., 1976, p. iv).
Amen......our country is sick and needs healing.....PRAY....PRAY...PRAY.
Why would God create someone, knowing they will have an abortion? Why even have that person get pregnant?
The Free Will covenant. God gave us free will. The person in question always has a choice to do evil — i.e,. get the abortion. Afterwards, she always has the choice to be truly sorry and repent of her sin.
Yes, mortals have free wills by which they are answerable for their moral choices before Creator God.
But if God knows someone is going to do something in their life, is it possible that they can do otherwise?
God throughout Scripture is Himself amazed at mortals’ actions because God, in being potentially all-knowing, pulls back His all-knowing powers to permit mortal free will.
God was grieved at Noah’s generation because He had not anticipated it being so evil. Scripture states that He wished He had not created mortals. That reveals that God was stunned / grieved at the generation that disobeyed Him so as to bring such severe judgment upon their lives.
I do not understand what you mean by pulling-back His all-knowing powers. It seems that either God knows someone will do something or He doesn’t.
If He knows someone will do something, how can that person do something different?
If God was stunned and hadn’t anticipated something, doesn’t that define God as less than all-knowing?
Christ said that He is “the Way, the Truth and the Life.” It is Christ who creates life at conception. Therefore, when wicked mortals kill that life, it is Christ who weeps.
[...]
Every time an unborn boy or girl is murdered, a soul enters heaven. These tiny ones belong to Christ. Therefore, when they are cruelly done away with, Christ in mercy receives them into glory.
The problem with "life begins at conception" is that it would mean that Christ slays more babies in the womb than humans do--most before the mother even realizes she's pregnant.
That would be a very disturbing thought...to worship a God who chooses to kill a third to a half of his creations before they are even born! It's no wonder St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, felt that the soul had to enter after conception. I think he's likely right.
The Bible is exceptionally clear that womb infants are humans.
It is clear that it's position is that at least some are. It is not exceptionally clear that all "womb infants" are humans, though.
Finally, if heaven means wonderful communion with God, and "Christ in mercy receives [the aborted] into glory," isn't an abortion the most wonderful gift a soul could receive?! Or do we value this temporal life so much more than God's Kingdom?
Obviously, there are some points to be addressed. Rather than dismiss such questions out of hand as frivolous, I believe they deserve theological examination.
The spiritually damaged world is imperfect.
Infants, for instance, die in wombs. If mortals slay them, that is murder. If they die in the womb because of a faulty world, that is not murder.
Those who murder answer for same before God.
All infants who die in womb or out of womb are escorted into heaven’s glory where Christ greets them. Christ said of children: “for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
thanks
some believe that souls choose their mothers.
perhaps if they know they will be aborted, their purpose in choosing that woman is to test that woman, give her a chance to make another decision and if not, to somehow change the mother’s heart-even if they are never born
The saddest words of tongue or pen are the words “it might have been”. Perhaps where our free wills are concerned, there are numerous possibilities and scenarios of “what might be”. The future may well be FLUID and full of possibilites, God’s best will or evil’s worst, or something in between. Perhaps, also, the words “IF he does this, or IF he does that or makes that choice, this or that will happen” could be in God’s vocabulary just as it is in ours.
We are created in the image of God, and we have to think on our feet. Maybe He has to think on His feet as well.
Wouldn’t that test and it’s results be known to God? If so, what kind of test is it, when the outcome is known and cannot be changed?
Quite possibly so, but wouldn’t that negate what a lot of people believe?
Don’t conflate omniscience with the concept of a predestined, fixed timeline.
Free will exists, and people make choices. Yes God does know what those choices will be because He sees all times and places simultaneously. That does not mean that He will interfere with free will - that would be a violation of His Creation.
absolutely no.
Only the One that can create life has the right to take it.
Any other entity doing so is committing murder.
Do I detect a bit of constraining God to time the same way we experience it, linearly?
Using Scripture alone as our data source, there is nothing in Scripture about souls choosing their mothers.
Sounds more like a New Age concept. It definitely has no backing in the Bible.
You are very welcome.
Again, “what a lot of people believe” and what the Bible states are two different sources. Those who believe the Bible to be the Word of God that needs no mortal additions or subtrations hold to the Bible as complete as a data source on spirituality.
You state: “Free will exists, and people make choices. Yes God does know what those choices will be because He sees all times and places simultaneously.”
Those holding to that are traditionally known as Calvinists—classic predestination.
Those not holding to that are traditionally known as Arminians after Arminius who debated Calvinism’s predestination.
Arminians do not believe that God knows all mortals’ free will choices. In fact, Arminians concluded just the opposite.
God holds back His all-knowing powers in order to allow for a real life real time mortal free will; otherwise, free will is but playing on words or an actual hoax.
True
That kind of sounds like the application of quantum theory to God.
If He observes the outcome, it changes that outcome...
I really don’t see how God knowing what your free will choices will be somehow negates the concept of free will. If you’re applying linear time experience to God, maybe, otherwise, no.
OK again.
Again, you are most welcome.
Now, we see through a glass darkly
Then - we shall know, even as we are known
Your questions will be answered in your own time, as will mine
But He created that person with a life path that He knows will happen. If He cannot be wrong, how can a persons free-will choice follow any other path?
What kind of free-will choice does a murder victim make?
What about wars and innocent collateral deaths?
You’re still conflating fore-knowledge with predestination. The person makes free will choices, even if these choices are already known to the Creator. Weird concept to grasp, kind of like reverse quantum mechanics.
(BTW, thanks for showing the respect that you do by capitalising pronouns referring to God)
The murder victim didn’t make the choice, the murderer did. The victim definitely is not held to account for the choice of the murderer. Not sure how this relates to free will.
I’m not claiming expertise on the various cases of this, but
the commandment to not commit murder applies to an individual making a decision to kill an innocent.
Wars can be just, and those who wage war are accountable for their decisions. Beyond that, I’m not sure.
The fuzzy areas of ethics and morality do not make the clear cut areas fuzzy themselves. Intentionally killing a baby in the womb is not fuzzy.
I think you are confusing human fore-knowledge with God’s fore-knowledge. He is the creator, what He knows will happen, must happen because He cannot be wrong. If He knows a person will do something, and He creates that person, then that person must do what God knows will happen.
Why wouldn’t I capitalise, doesn’t everyone?
My observations are these;
-When person-x commits murder, he is exercising his free-will, regardless of whether God created this person knowing he will murder.
-God created the victim, person-y, knowing he was going to be murdered by person-x. How could person-x NOT commit that murder?
If what person-x does in life, is not predestined, and purely a result of his choices, why is person-y predestined? As you say, person-y obviously didn’t make a choice. Doesn’t the bible say that God knows when a person will die? If He knows when, He must know how.
Myself, I do not see the difference in murder between an abortion and pre-meditated killing of innocents called collateral damage. Besides, who gets to decide if a war is just...the winner?
Thanks for the graphic that speaks millions.
So you’re saying that murder victims are damned?
Not sure how you would come to that conclusion from my post. You're only "damned" to separation from God if that is what you choose.
johnstown: “All infants who die in womb or out of womb are escorted into heaven’s glory where Christ greets them. Christ said of children: “for of such is the kingdom of heaven.””
I don’t think your proof text from scipture says that all infants who die in the womb go to heaven. I don’t think there is any assurance in the Bible all unborn infants, born infants, or even children before the “age of accountability” are heaven-bound.
The scripture that you reference merely states that the kingdom of heaven is “of such as these”. This statement informs us about what heaven is, not the state of these children’s souls. Besides, Christ was speaking about children that were born and standing in front of Him. This would not automatically include unborn children.
God is omniscient and omnipotent and omnipresent. He chooses those who He will save and we cannot comprehend the basis for His choosing (or not choosing). We should merely rejoice and praise Him that some are redeemed of their sinful natures out of no merit of their own.
Making statements about what you think is fair or just is not sufficient. Scripture says:
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Rom 9:12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Notice that God hated Esau even before he was born! So obviously we have at least one instance when an unborn infant was not saved. I suggest we pay close attention to Romans 9:15-16 as reprinted above...
stuartcr: “If He knows a person will do something, and He creates that person, then that person must do what God knows will happen.”
Stuartcr, I think you are trying to constrain God such that you can comprehend His actions. The primary concept you seem unable to grasp is that God can fore-ordain or allow sinful actions without being the conspirator or actor. It is a hard truth to understand, but is an essential tenet of any definition of God: GOD CANNOT SIN.
But obviously God created the concept of sin (he made ALL things) and God allows sin.
Perhaps God is bigger and greater and more wonderful than your little head will ever truly comprehend...
Minor (?) point: God did not “create sin”. He created free will. Man sinned. God allows sin indirectly by granting our free will.
If what is stated makes common sense, seek no other sense.
Christ said of the children around Him “of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Plain enough.
Little children, particularly of course the womb children, have not reached the age of accountability; therefore, they reside under divine mercy. If they die, their souls go to heaven.
That not only fits the plain words of Christ but fits the tenor of the entire Bible.
Yes re free will and sin.
MrB: “Minor (?) point: God did not “create sin”. He created free will. Man sinned. God allows sin indirectly by granting our free will.”
Well, if we are picking nits...
God did not just grant us free will. He imposed a law upon Adam (though shall not eat of the tree) which created the opportunity for sin. If God had only given Adam free will without the option of disobedience, then there would be no sin. Perhaps the best sentence would be that “God created the concept of sin and He created the sinner”.
I realize fully, that God is beyond my comprehension. That is why I ask people these questions, not God.
God is God, regardless of how or what I think/believe.
johnstown: “Little children, particularly of course the womb children, have not reached the age of accountability; therefore, they reside under divine mercy. If they die, their souls go to heaven.
That not only fits the plain words of Christ but fits the tenor of the entire Bible.”
There is no “age of accountability” mentioned anywhere in scripture. Please provide your scriptural support for an age of accountability. Also, please identify what age this might be.
According to scripture, ALL men are BORN in sin. In other words, there is no innocence in man at any age. All men must rely on Christ to redeem them.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
The Bible also clearly states what is necessary to be saved.
Deceived or evil? Either way, these people need an encounter with the living God.
I agree He was grieved, but I don't agree that He had not anticipated it being so evil. He knows the end from the beginning. That doesn't mean wrong actions don't cause Him grief.
Nice.
An omnipotent diety who decides to create someone to hate before he's born.
He chooses those who He will save and we cannot comprehend the basis for His choosing (or not choosing).
Ah, of course, we can't know the rules of the game.
Making statements about what you think is fair or just is not sufficient.
This same God supposedly made our intellect insufficient to understand fairness, yet then expects us to discern the correct path to take...and allows us to remain in eternal torment if we guess wrong?
And people actually choose to worship such a cruel, bizarre, and random diety?
Or do you have things wrong?
Do fetuses and embryos have the choice?
Actually, probably not even a single traditional Roman Catholic, such as myself, would consider voting for the man. Says something about the modernized church that lead to these sentiments among general Catholics.
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