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A word to biters of the consecrated hand [Catholic Caucus]
WDTPRS ^ | July 10, 2008 | Father John Zuhlsdorf

Posted on 07/10/2008 1:44:51 PM PDT by NYer

A friend just phoned to tell me about a discussion on a "trad" forum. 

I went there and read for a while.

In this discussion some people were publicly bad mouthing priests who have been celebrating the TLM and denigrating their ministry.

They claim these priests not Catholic enough, not fully or really Catholic.  Not Catholic like they are.

Thus, they who have no authority in the Church, laymen who have no jurisdiction, no credentials other than that they are hobbyists of the older form of the Roman Rite (sincere as their devotion may be), they who have read some encyclicals of popes of yesteryear, some books by authors zealous for Tradition, they who have no authority other than their conviction that no one else can be right or as Catholic as they are, turn with a snarl and bite the consecrated hand that feeds them Christ’s Body and forgives their sins. 

And this about some priests who have probably already forgotten more about liturgy and theology than they will ever know.  Priests who have suffered a great deal in their years of ministry at the hands even of Church officials because of their traditional convictions.

I am at an annual gathering of priests right now.  We have among other things discussed what it is like to minister to people who then turn on you.  How to work with that, with them.

Most of the time we are willing to have you keep bashing us, try to ruin our reputations, running us down.

But it does take its toll.

I say, if you chose to stay on this path, woe to you who raise your hands against the Lord’s anointed.

In taking this negative approach with and about your priests, you will not obtain your objectives.

Don’t expect them to be all warm and open to your suggestions when you do nothing but get in their faces and run them down behind their backs.

Mark my words, folks. 

If any of you have imbibed of this attitude, what I am describing above… mark my words, you are on a spiritually perilous course. 

You are putting your souls in danger of hell and causing scandal to others. 

You could also wind up ruining everything for others who also have your aspirations, but not your lack of prudence. 


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: priesthood; tlm; tradition

1 posted on 07/10/2008 1:44:53 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Father is not referring to this forum but some of you are probably familiar with the more traditionalist minded forums. My point in posting this here is to serve as a reminder to all of us to show the respect these consecrated priests deserve.


2 posted on 07/10/2008 1:47:55 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

How sad.


3 posted on 07/10/2008 1:56:07 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Tax-chick's House of Herpets. What's *your* ambient temperature?)
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To: NYer

I visit Fr. Z’s blog and post there under CTrent1564 as well. I don’t know what Trad forums he is talking about in particular, but one can conjecture that it is the more SSPX types who lean to TLM and nothing is ever good for them. So priests who want to celebrate the ordinary form of the Roman Rite (Missal of 1970) and the Classic form of the Roman Rite (Extraordinary Form using Missal of 1962), get ripped by “some of these” SSPX types are those who act more Catholic than the Pope and call the Ordinary form of the Roman Rite invalid.

When the Transalpine Redemptorist had thir canonical status recognized by Rome, many SSPX supporters appered on many orthodox Catholic blogs critisizing them.

What a shame?

Regards


4 posted on 07/10/2008 2:42:39 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: NYer

I’m nots sure I understand. If people are attacking priests who celebrate the TLM, why are traditionalists being blames?


5 posted on 07/10/2008 2:53:55 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

No, it’s not written clearly, but I think he must be referring to things like a couple of instances reported on his blog shortly after the MP came out — a priest went to the trouble of learning or relearning the TLM to accommodate a group that wanted it . . . and then got reamed out by them for every little slip. Fr. Z kept pointing out that such an ungracious attitude (I guess not that uncommon) isn’t helping their cause.


6 posted on 07/10/2008 3:09:40 PM PDT by maryz
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To: NYer

When the Campos, Brazil, group regularized their relations with the Holy Father, a relative of mine called them traitors.

I asked this relative, “Traitors to whom?”

After all, they had sought and attained everything they wanted, including keeping the Old Rites, the schools, and their Superior named as Auxilary Bishop, with the assurance that he would be THE bishop when the other stepped down.

The were now in full communion with Rome.

He refused to answer and changed the discussion.

They are only prepared to make certain points in a conversation, but cannot carry on an actual discussion.

Whenever they are invited to family religious functions, they stand outside the Church, audibly praying for the conversion of everyone inside.


7 posted on 07/10/2008 3:47:51 PM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: fetal heart beats by 21st day
Whenever they are invited to family religious functions, they stand outside the Church, audibly praying for the conversion of everyone inside.

How sad, she said redundantly. My parents are Protestant, but they've been to our Baptisms and First Communions and never say an impolite word.

When the children visit them in Florida, I've always told them to go to North Lake Presbyterian with Mom, sing the songs, say the prayers, and say, "Niceta meetcha" to all the nice old people. Just don't receive communion, if it's a communion Sunday for them, because we're not members of that church.

The last time my two oldest sons visited, Mom *volunteered* to take them to the local Catholic parish on Saturday night, and then went to the Sunday Presbyterian service by herself.

8 posted on 07/10/2008 4:01:48 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Tax-chick's House of Herpets. What's *your* ambient temperature?)
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To: Tax-chick

You and your family are behaving charitably towards each other, and it will probably bear good fruit in the end.


9 posted on 07/10/2008 4:07:20 PM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: fetal heart beats by 21st day

They thought we were nuts when we joined the Catholic Church, but now that they have more grandchildren than any of their friends, they see at least one of the benefits! I think it helps that I’ve always made it clear that I’m grateful for my upbringing in the Presbyterian church, even though I’ve chosen something different in adulthood. If we’d said that our children couldn’t attend church with Mom because it’s BAAAAAAD, my parents would naturally have been very offended.

I’ve seen some reports about the Campos traditional community, and it seems just great. I’m really happy for them.


10 posted on 07/10/2008 4:45:08 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Tax-chick's House of Herpets. What's *your* ambient temperature?)
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To: Tax-chick

I agree with you-on both counts.


11 posted on 07/10/2008 5:11:28 PM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: NYer

I sure haven’t run into much of this myself.

My own perspective is to be thrilled when any priest begins to offer the TLM.

If it is offered in good faith and with a sincere attempt to follow the rubrics, I can’t see where any criticism is ever due.

All things involving a human have some room for improvement.


12 posted on 07/10/2008 5:20:55 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: maryz

“— a priest went to the trouble of learning or relearning the TLM to accommodate a group that wanted it . . . and then got reamed out by them for every little slip.”

If we had a TLM in Idaho, I’d feel very fortunate, even if the priest’s Latin were less than perfect — not that I’d be likely to notice, anyway.

There’s a brand new church in Fruitland. Dropped by the other day, and — gasp, stagger, faint — the priest was actually there and available.

On the other hand, this bishop is still reinstating molesters to be parish priests.


13 posted on 07/10/2008 5:25:01 PM PDT by dsc
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To: steve86

I am guessing at the circumstances here but I believe I know the website in question and Fr. Z. does indeed have a point. For some (rad) traditionalists, it’s polemic after polemic, etc ad nauseam


14 posted on 07/10/2008 5:27:28 PM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman (Just say no to circular firing squads.)
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To: dsc
If we had a TLM in Idaho

Idaho Falls, Post Falls, New Plymouth (near you)? Maybe not all current.

15 posted on 07/10/2008 5:38:39 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: Tax-chick

that is how Christians should be.


16 posted on 07/10/2008 5:53:25 PM PDT by ChurtleDawg (voting only encourages them)
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To: ChurtleDawg

I think so. Do each of us think the other believes some things that are erroneous? Sure. Does that mean denominational differences are more important than family? No way. If it’s a sin to let the children attend a Protestant service one time, instead of insisting that someone take them to Mass, then I’ll do penance for it, because it’s my decision.


17 posted on 07/10/2008 6:01:32 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Tax-chick's House of Herpets. What's *your* ambient temperature?)
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To: NYer; Tax-chick; CTrent1564; nickcarraway; maryz; fetal heart beats by 21st day; dsc; ...
Calumny
Any deception of another, especially in judicial matters, commonly used to mean unjust damaging of another's character by imputing to him something of which he is not guilty. It is an act which varies in sinfulness according to the gravity of the fault or crime imputed and the damage done. It calls for retraction and for reparation of the damage done, provided this had been foreseen. In canon law, the oath taken to attest that the litigation on both sides is in good faith is called juramentum calumnire (oath disclaiming calumny).
detraction
Unjust damaging of another's good name by the revelation of some fault or crime of which that other is guilty or believed to be guilty by the defamer. The detractor's guilt varies with the damage done. He is bound to restitution of the defamed's violated rights. For just reasons one may lawfully divulge another's offenses, but only to prudent persons and for the purpose of preventing evil to the guilty party or others.

2475 Christ's disciples have "put on the new man, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."273 By "putting away falsehood," they are to "put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander."274

2476 False witness and perjury. When it is made publicly, a statement contrary to the truth takes on a particular gravity. In court it becomes false witness.275 When it is under oath, it is perjury. Acts such as these contribute to condemnation of the innocent, exoneration of the guilty, or the increased punishment of the accused.276 They gravely compromise the exercise of justice and the fairness of judicial decisions.

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.277 He becomes guilty:
- of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
- of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;278
- of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. and if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.279

2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one's neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

2480 Every word or attitude is forbidden which by flattery, adulation, or complaisance encourages and confirms another in malicious acts and perverse conduct. Adulation is a grave fault if it makes one an accomplice in another's vices or grave sins. Neither the desire to be of service nor friendship justifies duplicitous speech. Adulation is a venial sin when it only seeks to be agreeable, to avoid evil, to meet a need, or to obtain legitimate advantages.

2481 Boasting or bragging is an offense against truth. So is irony aimed at disparaging someone by maliciously caricaturing some aspect of his behavior.

2487 Every offense committed against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation, even if its author has been forgiven. When it is impossible publicly to make reparation for a wrong, it must be made secretly. If someone who has suffered harm cannot be directly compensated, he must be given moral satisfaction in the name of charity. This duty of reparation also concerns offenses against another's reputation. This reparation, moral and sometimes material, must be evaluated in terms of the extent of the damage inflicted. It obliges in conscience.


The thoughts Fr. Z. gives, though not directly aimed at Catholic FReepers, should be VERY carefully heeded by all of us, myself included (especially). I am not advocating turning a blind eye to what goes on...but HOW are we not turning a blind eye? Are we doing so in a prayerful attitude for the bishops and priests concerned...or are we doing so in a Pharisitical, judgemental fashion?

Needless to say, that post on WDTPRS was a blast of cold water in my face....

18 posted on 07/10/2008 6:08:02 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman
I am guessing at the circumstances here but I believe I know the website

Yes, it's that website, and some posters were being very uncharitable..I feel sad that a lot of the posters there are so full of anger. Most of them seem very unhappy. I don't think it would win anyone to their particular flavor of Catholicism.

No matter what Rome, or the Church does, it's never good enough. They remind me of my German Aunts.

19 posted on 07/10/2008 8:33:33 PM PDT by sockmonkey (I swam the Tiber. The water was warm and welcoming.)
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To: CTrent1564

It sounds like these people are like the Pharisees-—Holier than thou on the outside, completely missing the point of the Mass (unity in Christ) and the faith in general while they nitpick over the tiny details of the ceremony.


20 posted on 07/10/2008 8:37:56 PM PDT by ChurtleDawg (voting only encourages them)
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To: ChurtleDawg

Well, I reckon some places could have used a little tasteful internet vitriol in the late 50’s/early 60’s. Still, there’s no call to be mean to a priest or a bishop or a Pope that that’s trying to do what the Church teaches.

Freegards


21 posted on 07/10/2008 9:31:14 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: steve86

“Idaho Falls, Post Falls, New Plymouth”

If I’m not mistaken, those are SSPX.


22 posted on 07/10/2008 9:56:25 PM PDT by dsc
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To: ChurtleDawg

“completely missing the point of the Mass (unity in Christ) and the faith in general”

That’s where I have a problem. For me, the point of the Mass is the individual’s worship of Our Lord.

I conceptualize threads of light running from individual worshippers through the priest and up...not links among the attendees. It ain’t about our relationships with each other; it’s about Him.


23 posted on 07/10/2008 10:02:58 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc

You are mistaken, except for Post Falls which has both.


24 posted on 07/10/2008 10:13:50 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: Ransomed

“Still, there’s no call to be mean to a priest or a bishop or a Pope that that’s trying to do what the Church teaches.”

It seems to me, in my lack of knowledge and wisdom, that the bishop and priests in this diocese are *not* trying to do what the Church teaches, but the liberal crap they think the Church *should* teach.

As far as being mean to them for it, you might as well, because they absolutely refuse any civil discussion of the question. Shunning is the response of choice among the clergy in this diocese.


25 posted on 07/10/2008 10:14:12 PM PDT by dsc
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To: steve86

I telephoned SSPX, and I’m pretty sure the one in New Plymouth is theirs. I haven’t been able to get any information on Idaho Falls, which in any case is pretty far from Boise.

Not that I wouldn’t want to drive it, but I don’t have the money.


26 posted on 07/10/2008 10:16:43 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc

You are right about the New Plymouth Chapel. That is a new one to me. I might visit some time.

Heck, going to Idaho falls/American Falls from here, by the time I get to Boise it seems like I’m almost there!


27 posted on 07/10/2008 10:23:01 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture™)
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To: dsc

It seems to me, in my lack of knowledge and wisdom, that the bishop and priests in this diocese are *not* trying to do what the Church teaches, but the liberal crap they think the Church *should* teach.

Well then, I reckon some anger is needed. How do we disagree?

Freegards


28 posted on 07/10/2008 10:27:00 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: Tax-chick

I see nothing wrong with the way you have handled the situation. It’s a shame that some of the Protestants that over run our other threads, can’t see how well Catholics and Non-Catholics get along in REAL life. We have both in our families and everyone goes to everyone else’s stuff (Baptisms, etc.).


29 posted on 07/11/2008 3:55:10 AM PDT by defconw (Pray for Snow!)
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To: Ransomed
How do we disagree?

Prayerfully and with humility. For me, I look at how I've acted in the past at times, and it's almost like I've put myself as being more self-righteous than the priest or bishop that I've criticized.

I think that we (particularly me) need to do a whole lot more praying for our priests and bishops and a whole lot less detracting. We need to remember that it's Christ who established this Church and that it is ultimately Christ who sustains it. When He said And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, we need to take Him at His word.

If we are going to criticize face-to-face, we need to wait for God to give us the words: to do so out of humility and not out of pride. If we are going to talk crap about them behind their backs (like on FR), we need to, as Fr. Z. rightly pointed out, tread very carefully so that we aren't guilty of the sin of detraction and, thus, put our own souls in jeopardy.

And above all, we need to remember that Christ, through the consecrating bishop, has consecrated the hands of the clergy that we criticize.

30 posted on 07/11/2008 4:04:10 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: defconw

Yes, there’s a lot more politeness in real life. My Girl Scout troop (homeschool association) is a mix of different types of Christians, and so is my sons’ Boy Scout troop, even though it meets at our Catholic church.


31 posted on 07/11/2008 4:10:19 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Tax-chick's House of Herpets. What's *your* ambient temperature?)
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To: steve86; dsc

Yes, Post Falls and Idaho Falls are diocese approved TLMs. New Plymouth is a SSPX chapel. I am active at both St. Paul’s in Nampa (N.O.) and the SSPX church, if you can believe that. I am working with a friend to write a brief letter to Bishop Driscoll, asking what is the process to get a TLM regularly celebrated in the Treasure Valley. Anyone want to sign on? When I’ve asked my priest about this before, his story is that there isn’t a TLM offered because, and I quote, there isn’t enough interest in the Valley.


32 posted on 07/11/2008 4:11:32 AM PDT by sojourner
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To: markomalley

Howdy Mark. I think you make an excellant point about praying for our clergy and especially the hierarchy. But the internet is a great tool that the Church needs to recognize as a way to police/discipline itself. After all, every Catholic has the right to a proper Mass, or at least a Mass were the priest is trying to be proper to the best of his ability.

Freegards


33 posted on 07/11/2008 7:49:43 AM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: Ransomed

“How do we disagree?”

I don’t guess we do. It’s just that I’m never confident that I’m handling the situation with these priests correctly.


34 posted on 07/11/2008 3:39:50 PM PDT by dsc
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To: sojourner

“I am active at both St. Paul’s in Nampa (N.O.)”

Do they follow the GIRM?

“and the SSPX church”

Which one would that be?

“brief letter to Bishop Driscoll, asking what is the process to get a TLM regularly celebrated in the Treasure Valley. Anyone want to sign on?”

Sure.

“When I’ve asked my priest about this before, his story is that there isn’t a TLM offered because, and I quote, there isn’t enough interest in the Valley.”

That’s always their first gambit.


35 posted on 07/11/2008 3:44:12 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc

“It’s just that I’m never confident that I’m handling the situation with these priests correctly.”

Me neither. Common sense and prayer help.

Freegards


36 posted on 07/11/2008 4:20:45 PM PDT by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed says Keep the Faith!)
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To: dsc
“I am active at both St. Paul’s in Nampa (N.O.)”Do they follow the GIRM?

Yes, they appear to. Mass is celebrated in a reverent manner at St. Paul's.

“and the SSPX church”Which one would that be?

The chapel in New Plymouth.

“brief letter to Bishop Driscoll, asking what is the process to get a TLM regularly celebrated in the Treasure Valley. Anyone want to sign on?”Sure.

I'll freepmail you about this if I can remember how... :)

37 posted on 07/11/2008 7:51:40 PM PDT by sojourner
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