Posted on 07/13/2008 7:57:59 AM PDT by Ottofire
Is this man a heretic or do we follow the Council of Florence's decree that states
It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Denzinger 714).
Which of these are teaching what the RCC has always taught from the lips of Christ, to Peter, down through the Early Church Fathers, the Holy Traditions, to the Council of Florence to Vatican II to the current Pope?
Or can someone see how both this esteemed Monsignor Albacete and the Council of Florence can somehow be reconciled?
I wish Jesus had known this. He wouldn’t have had to do that whole messy cross thing.
Hard Baked Dirt said... Umm, this is so pathetic that I hardly even know where to begin. It is classic Roman Catholicism to the core. Know absolutely nothing about the Scriptures but put just enough Christian-ese lingo around your poison that people will swallow it with little to no convulsions.
They do the same with many other forms of destruction btw, except that the result isn't damnation just a dead rat.
Or was that the Mormons?
O my, you found a Catholic heretic! Now, let’s look at the Protestants who hold the same exact heresy: The PCUSA, the ECUSA, the ELCA, the Emerging Church movement, the American Baptists, the National Baptists, the UCC, the LDS...
Makes one yearn for a “minimalist” Christian church.
>> Wasn’t it just last week that we heard arguments from a Catholic or two, to the effect that all men everywhere will be saved? <<
I spite of John 3:16 being ripped out of its context, (Who ever has seen a sports fan holding up a sign reading “John 3:16-18” ?) Universalism is a many-times condemned heresy. Benedict, John Paul II, etc., all have vehemently condemned it. Unfortunately, 500 years ago the Protestant churches introduced the notion that when two passages of scripture seem to contradict, the “believer” can pick and choose which ones he believes in.
>> Or was that the Mormons? <<
I’m one Catholic who does not believe that all Mormons everywhere will be saved.
>> Makes one yearn for a “minimalist” Christian church. <<
You mean the kind who thinks that holding up “John 3:16” at a stadium amounts to anything? No thank you.
One apostate does not an apostate church make.
An apostate church is made when the teaching is at odds with the Gospels,when they teach a ‘different’ gospel (none of which are really gospels at all).
This man is an apostate, and here he expresses a different ‘gospel’ than that once for all given.
As for the Roman centered church, if it has crossed that line or if this guy just is projecting his own fallicy on it, that is another matter.
It will take documentation of his assertions to prove the whole edifice has slipped from holding questionable teachings that don’t really amount to a different gospel to one that is now factually apostate.
“...we heard arguments from a Catholic or two...”
Yup. Two makes it an Offishul Teeching. /s
Guess you are among the many who believe God is coming in a Flying Saucer to pick up the remnant.
(And that is from one of your more prolific Protestant posters.)
The Roman Catholic church.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
It helps if you don’t cherrypick. It’s sort of like explaining not mixing foods or their prohibitions in the Old Testament if you don’t include Acts in the new.
“The Church and non-Christians
839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 “the first to hear the Word of God.”327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338
I have been staying out of these Catholic/Protestant tit for tats for some time now and plan to continue. I think you have been involved in enough of these threads to realize that there are some Catholic priests, theologians, and perhaps some Bishops who are dissenters from Catholic magesterial teaching as fully laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
What this Msgr states is obviously not in conformity with Catholic Doctrine and the Catholic Church does not teach Universal salvation, even though Scripture does speak that God desires all men to be saved, some will and some will not.
There are Catholics who favor women’s ordination, most recently, a nun in St. Louis particapted in a “so-called ordination of a woman to the Catholic priesthood”. The local bishop, Abp. Burke issued an interdict stating that she can no longer participate in any Catholic ministry and this was upheld in Rome.
What do we take from all this, in the end the authentic Catholic Church teaching is expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Catholics believe that Christ will protec the Church in union with the Bishop of Rome from teaching unorthodox doctrine. I as an orthodox Catholic accept this. What I also believe is that some Catholics will dissent from orthodox Catholic teaching which in the end is just that, some Catholics dissent from Catholic teaching. But Catholic teaching not changed at the Doctrinal level to conform to every “spirit of the age” that pops up.
And what is stated at Florence is still true but has been developed as the statement “unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock...”
This statement is entirely consistent with the teaching of the Fathers that “outside the Church their is no salvation”. What that means, at least my understanding, and has been more fully defined a stating all who are saved are saved by Christ through the Church (his body) which is the instrument of salvation. The Catholic Church is the normative instrument of salvation that God uses as Christ has given his Church the 7 sacraments which are visible signs that Give Grace for the sanctification of humanity. THus, the fullness means of salvation are in the Catholic Church. As has been stated before, Christ is bound to the Sacraments, but God in ways only known to him can find ways to bring people of good will, who are truly invincibly ignorant, into his body the Church as God does “will everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth” (c.f. 1 Tim 2:4).
I have linked the relevant paragraphs from the CCC which go into the issue you are raising if you are interested in reading what the authentic Catholic teaching is on the matter:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm
Regard
The fact that he is a Monsignor and hasn’t been defrocked for teaching this makes it a legitimate question.
What does "the plan of salvation" mean?
Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." [italics mine]Now, I think the notion that other religions prepare its adherents for the gospel is contrivertible among Christians. (In the case of Islam, which is post-Christian in origin, and therefore, specifically anti-Christian, I disagree.) But that's hardly denies the centrality of the gospel to salvation!
Well, for one, he’s not teaching universalism. He’s teaching extra-ordinary means of salvation.
“It’s not the morals that get you to Heaven... it’s the heart that can get you there. This is very important. Because even for the Christian, A Christian can fulfill every damned moral law there is and end up in Hell. This is a doctrine of the Church... Between truth and love, they are two names for the same reality.”
There are definite problems with what he says. For one, I’d sure hope that he gets into Heaven faster than most Buddhists... unless he’s got something he’s not been bringing to the confessional! But, rather, I think he’s trying to be humble. And by recasting Christian terms in terms a non-believer could understand, he’s missing essential.
But playing “gotcha” with a priest speaking extemporaneously? I’m sure glad you don’t head the Congregation for the Defense of the Faith.
I would hope someone in his position would do his thinking out loud with his peers in the hierarchy before presenting it to the flock.
Seems to me the deal the the Roman church presents to Christians is, you give us your complete attention and loyalty, in return we will guarantee what we teach you is 100% reliable, and we will protect you from the wolves. Some things I read makes me question how well the Church is holding up its end of the bargain.
>> Seems to me the deal the the Roman church presents to Christians is, you give us your complete attention and loyalty, in return we will guarantee what we teach you is 100% reliable, and we will protect you from the wolves. Some things I read makes me question how well the Church is holding up its end of the bargain. <<
Honest truth is: I agree. WAY to many priests are doing an absolutely horrific job of holding up their end of the deal. Fortunately, any LITERATE Catholic can find out the truth of what the Church teaches in spite of these losers. And THAT’S the difference between Protestantism and Catholicism: in Protestantism, your interpretation of the bible is only as good as the guy who instructed you.
So those of us who have accepted Jesus as our Saviour but rejected your church as apostate will end up in Hell, and those who have never heard of the Catholic church (and never will) have a pretty fair chance at Heaven???
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