Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The "Lost" Ten Tribes
Things To Come -- A Journal of Biblical Literature | July, 1894 | Editors

Posted on 07/17/2008 4:35:12 AM PDT by John Leland 1789

THE "LOST" TEN TRIBES

In a recent discussion of the subject, by P. Asmussim, in a German periodical, the writer shows that the ten tribes never were "lost." Both in the Books of Kings and in the Assyrian inscriptions we have records of the deportations of the inhabitants of the Northern Kingdom, and in leading particulars the accounts agree.

In 734 Tiglath-Pileser led into captivity the people of Gilead and of Galilee, and the districts of Issachar, Zebulon, Asher, Naphtali, Northern Dan, Eastern Manasseh and Gad were incorporated into the Assyrian monarchy. The last king of Israel accordingly ruled over nothing but what was afterwards called Samaria, i.e. the territory of Ephraim, West Manasseh, and the remnants of Benjamin. (Benjamin had not been joined to Judah, as is generally supposed; but Judah had extended her boundaries in the north at the expense of Benjamin as early as the reigns of David and Solomon. The district of Reuben had disappeared during the time of the Kings.)

From this limited territory, Sargon, in 722, according to his own report, led into captivity 27,280 persons, and later on until 711 some few more. In both deportations from all ten tribes the entire number of captives could not have numbered more than 50,000, including women and children.

The system of deportation then practiced by the despots never sent the entire population of a land into exile, and only those influential families who might stir up rebellion against the conqueror, and the artisans who made weapons. These captives formed a small minority in the communities where they settled, and being not very zealous Jews, religiously, they underwent a religious and social amalgamation with the foreign people. (It was different with Babylonian exiles of a century and a half later; they were zealous Jehovists, and were promised a return, so that they adhered to Judaism, lived together in Babylon, the prophetic activity continued, and some of them later returned to Jerusalem as a congregation.)

Those who were deported from the Northern kingdom were an insignificant number compared with the masses that remained, perhaps one-tenth. They were not tribes or large parts of tribes, but only individuals, or at most families. These persons were "lost" to be sure, but the tribes as such remained in Canaan, and absorbed the heathen settlers that were sent in. In later times the division into tribes signified little or nothing, the division into tribal territory was not regarded. In general, the Jew of the New Testament era knew as little from what tribe he came as does the modern Jew. Among modern Jews all these tribes, without any doubt, are their descendents. In other words, the "lost" tribes never have been and are not now "lost."

[Note: All Twelve Tribes were represented in Jerusalem at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2.]


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; History; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; history; israel; losttribes; tribes
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-118 next last
Just of interest.
1 posted on 07/17/2008 4:35:12 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789

Thanks.

Do you have a map related to all the above?


2 posted on 07/17/2008 4:53:45 AM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Quix
“Do you have a map related to all the above?”

I don't, Quix, my library here in Shanghai is, of necessity, too small for that.

Let me recommend a book to you, though, with an excellent view of Israel's history, and it has a chalk-artists set of maps in the back. The author is also a chalk illustrator of Bible themes.

The book is titled ISRAEL, A DEADLY PIECE OF DIRT. Author: Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, Pensacola Bible Institute, Pensacola, Florida. Check out the Bible Baptist Bookstore in Pensacola. I believe they do have a web site.

3 posted on 07/17/2008 5:10:31 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Quix
I should have added, you are one, I believe, who would enjoy all of Dr. Ruckman’s books. He is a prolific writer on Bible themes; has written full commentaries on many of the books of the Bible. Has read all of the Bible several hundred times.

Dr. Ruckman reads 700 words per minute at age @87, and has 99.xxx% recall. He has degrees in history as well as theology. Was a dance band drummer in his early years, and studied for the RC priesthood prior to being converted to Jesus Christ (1947). Has been a pastor, evangelist and Bible institute president — and artist and chalk illustrator. Still traveling and preaching! Has conducted public debates with RC lawyers, videos of which can be obtained from the bookstore.

One of Dr. Ruckman’s most interesting productions is an AD LIB COMMENTARY through the Bible, which you can get (I think) on audio CDs. You can learn more Bible running down the highway with those recordings running than most Bible colleges teach in a Bachelor's program, I guarantee.

Dr. Ruckman is a caustic, no-holds-barred preacher, one of the old types like Sam Jones, Uncle Bud Robinson, Gypsy Smith, and Billy Sunday.

4 posted on 07/17/2008 5:32:32 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789

bump.


5 posted on 07/17/2008 5:50:47 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789

Chaim Potok has a very interesting history of the Jews called Wanderings.

In discussing the various dispersals by conquering kings, he notes that some were left behind and that at least a minimal amount of communication went back and forth between those left in Israel and those removed over the years via trade.


6 posted on 07/17/2008 5:57:26 AM PDT by wildbill ( FR---changing history by erasing it from memory.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789
I must say I completely disagree with the author of this article. There are at least one hundred scriptures that support the scattering of the House of Israel aka the ten lost tribes. The entire book of Hosea is written about the scattering of the House of Israel to the point that they loose their identity. They no longer know they are Hebrews because of assimilation with Gentile nations. The House of Judah remains intact to be the vehicle for the MESSIAH to appear. To this day the House of Israel is lost, however is now being awakened to it's identity. The judgment given in Ezk.4:4 to the House of Israel was completed this year. Now is the time that those of Abraham's seed are awakening to their Hebrew roots. Jesus/Yahshua said He came only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The House of Judah is intact to this day but Yahweh is now calling the House of Israel to regather.

A good archaeological, linguistic, cultural, and geographical study on this subject is written by Yair Davidy. Yair is a Jewish scholar based out of Jerusalem. He along with thousands of Orthodox Jews agree that the lost tribes were scattered but will be regathered by the soon coming Messiah.

7 posted on 07/17/2008 6:01:07 AM PDT by ladyL (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ladyL
I am with you on all of the Scriptures that deal with the “scattering” of Israel. I believe those Scriptures, and believe that the tribes were scattered as per the prophets, which I believe quite literally.

By the way, the editors of THINGS TO COME (1894 to 1915) also believed that the tribes were scattered just as you state. They were Bible-literalists.

The word “scatter,” however, is not synonymous with the word “lost.” All Twelve Tribes were represented at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, although they had been scattered.

The volumes of THINGS TO COME dealt often with the issue of British-Israelism which was a much bigger deal in theological discussion in those years than it is today in the USA (I assume you are writing from the USA). The editors published that article in that context.

8 posted on 07/17/2008 6:54:51 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: ladyL

Is it possible that the entire later Kingdom of Judea was made up of the descendants of the exiles who returned in the time of Cyrus? The returning exiles just could not have been that many, especially since many exiles, perhaps the majority, didn’t return at all; the exile community in Mesopotamia kept its identity long into the Christian Era.


9 posted on 07/17/2008 6:57:07 AM PDT by Christopher Lincoln
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: wildbill
Potok, then, was most likely correct on those points. The conquering Assyrians were wise enough not to leave the land of the northern tribes completely absent of its inhabitants. The captivities did not include every last member of those tribes being removed, nor is that a necessity for the prophets to have been absolutely correct in their prophecies, which given by inspiration of God.

Scattered yes, “lost,” no.

10 posted on 07/17/2008 7:01:53 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Quix; John Leland 1789; P-Marlowe
Do you have a map related to all the above?

What we do have is the Mormon Map:

Hope that helps.

11 posted on 07/17/2008 7:10:31 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

Are you telling me that the LDS Church either does teach, or used to teach, the Hollow Earth idea?


12 posted on 07/17/2008 7:27:39 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789; P-Marlowe
Are you telling me that the LDS Church either does teach, or used to teach, the Hollow Earth idea?

There does seem to be some facination among Mormons with the Hollow Earth Theory. Google Mormon and Hollow Earth and you will get over 200,000 hits.

13 posted on 07/17/2008 7:46:43 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789

I saw a pretty good argument that the Irish (Celts, in particular) very well could be from the tribe of Dan. Time line, historical oddities, and some genetic studies indicate they were at least middle eastern.

Burly folks with red hair, too.

Me, I am from the house of Levi, by family name (Kohen)/tradition and genetic study.


14 posted on 07/17/2008 8:10:49 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I gather you don’t believe the tales of construction workers under the Salt Lake Temple running into Dracos?

LOL.

What do I know. I just live here.


15 posted on 07/17/2008 10:14:30 AM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: MeanWestTexan

I thought it was quite conclusive that the Danes are Dan.

Step-dad is 100% Dane.


16 posted on 07/17/2008 10:15:33 AM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Quix

Never heard that one.


17 posted on 07/17/2008 12:24:05 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

All that is missing is Atlantis and the lost continent of MU.;-D


18 posted on 07/17/2008 12:34:44 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789
Many of the tribes were lost, but there was always a remnant left.

There are many stories of peoples who have Hebrew like religions in odd places also.

19 posted on 07/17/2008 3:48:10 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789; ladyL; Quix
The system of deportation then practiced by the despots never sent the entire population of a land into exile, and only those influential families who might stir up rebellion against the conqueror, and the artisans who made weapons. These captives formed a small minority in the communities where they settled, and being not very zealous Jews, religiously, they underwent a religious and social amalgamation with the foreign people.

Poppycock! [II Kings 17:7] Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

Not only that.....they were still in exile when the Jews returned from their Babylonian captivity 200 years later. [II Kings 17:24] Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.

The Books of the Kings and the Chronicles were written after the return of the Jews from Babylon.....and Israel was still in exile at that time! There is no mention of their return in scripture. They were not lost. Everyone knew where they were....but they have now been lost to history. During the first century Our Lord instructs his Apostles to evangelize them [Matthew 10:5-6]. Josephus says they are still beyond the Euphrates during the first century [Antiquities XI, Chapter 5, Paragraph 2]. Peter is evangelizing them here: [1 Peter 1:1-2] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Here is what the Greek translated for "Strangers scattered" means: Strangers (3927. parepidemos (par-ep-id'-ay-mos), an alien alongside, i.e. a resident foreigner). Scattered ( 1290. diaspora (dee-as-por-ah')dispersion, i.e. (specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries). These folks were Israelites.....not Gentiles as most modern clergy would have us believe. They had a "Foreknowledge" of God, the Father!

Some folks of the Northern Tribes migrated to the south before the deportation [II Chronicles 11:13-17] and became known as Jews.....especially the Levites as they had been rejected as priests and found themselves only welcomed in the South. But scripture says "Only Judah remained" and at that time Judah consisted of Benjamin and Levi as well.

20 posted on 07/17/2008 6:03:50 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Christopher Lincoln

Assyria carried the House of Israel out of there land and scattered them throughout the Assyrian empire in 721 BC.
2Kings was written around 550 BC, approximately 170 yrs. later. Let’s let SCRIPTURE answer your question.

(2 Ki 17:21 KJV) For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin.

(2 Ki 17:22 KJV) For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them;

(2 Ki 17:23 KJV) Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.


21 posted on 07/17/2008 6:19:59 PM PDT by ladyL (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: ladyL

Yup....you’re correct. That should be [II kings 17:23] not 24 like I posted before you.


22 posted on 07/17/2008 7:37:28 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618

If you want to take it one step further we can go to

(Mat 15:24 KJV) But he (Yahshua) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Look at James 1:1 To the 12 Tribes scattered abroad!!!!

The prophets tell that the lost tribes aka the House of Israel will be united with the House of Judah (Jews) to restore the Kingdom of Israel. That is in our future. Hmm...I wonder who the House of Israel is?


23 posted on 07/17/2008 7:44:54 PM PDT by ladyL (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618

“Poppycock! [II Kings 17:7] Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.”


Not “Poppycock.” There were no tribes left but Judah only.

That there was a remnant of individuals and families used by the Assyrians in the land would not negate that.


24 posted on 07/18/2008 5:20:14 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: ladyL

“Look at James 1:1 To the 12 Tribes scattered abroad!!!!”


Scattered, not lost.


25 posted on 07/18/2008 5:22:06 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789
Peter Ruckman is not welcome even among many of his fellow independent, KJV only, fundamentalist Baptists. However, his views regarding the fate of the ten “lost” tribes agree with those of evangelical and liberal historians. I suspect he is not comfortable agreeing with scholars at Dallas Theological Seminary or Harvard University, but facts are facts. The British-Israelite theories are largely built on coincidences, for instance, that the various “Dan” place names in Europe, such as the Danube River, derive from the tribe of Dan or that the Saxons of England and Germany are actually "(I)saac's sons". The most likely scenario is that of the ten tribes' intermarriage with other Jews or members of surrounding pagan nations and their consequent disappearance.
26 posted on 07/18/2008 5:35:44 AM PDT by Wallace T.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Wallace T.
I am not a defender of every single particular position of Dr. Ruckman.

That he agrees with Dallas Theo. with regard to Israel is certainly not a discomfort to Dr. Ruckman, I'm sure. He agrees, with grace, with many on many Biblical subjects, who don't agree with him on others. Such is the case with most of us. I use books to develop teaching materials from which I must scrub some sections from my consideration, like any teacher does. Dr. Ruckman would do the same. His bookstore has a wide range of books (probably even some from Dallas), and carrying them does not suggest that he endorses every expression of teaching in every book.

There are a couple of areas of teaching on which I would not jee-haw with Dr. Ruckman at all. I labor with some graduates of his institute who didn't either swallow everything he taught. They are good strong men and good servants of the Lord, I'll say that. I still recommend his books to discriminating readers for their general value.

I am in general fellowship with preachers who would never have Dr. Ruckman in their pulpits, but many of them have his books in their libraries — and use them.

I am using a Theology (book) even now that is chock full of quotes from Louis Chafer (Dallas), to develop a three-year theology course for Chinese men. I dare say that Dr. Ruckman has read it and could probably tell us what is on most of the pages from memory. I will leave most of the quotes from Dr. Chafer in tact in the lessons, ‘cause they are right and good.

I'm also using some material from Dr. Ruckman and a dozen other sources as well.

I have been in some question-answer sessions where Dr. Ruckman was the one answering the questions. I have seen antagonists go after him on many issues. What impressed me is that he always responded with grace and with reserve. They were unusual and surprising sessions.

27 posted on 07/18/2008 6:06:19 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: ladyL; Quix

Since James wrote to the TWELVE scattered tribes (not just ten), he probably expected his letter to be read by people of ALL Twelve tribes, and probably didn’t think that “scattered” is synonymous with “lost.”


28 posted on 07/18/2008 6:11:47 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789

If you take the old 52 card deck, and try to shuffle, and they get away from you, they will “scatter” without necessarily being “lost.”

Some of those 52 might land at your feet, while most will go flying elsewhere. The ones that land at your feet will be as scattered from the rest, as the rest are from the ones at your feet.

Some Israeli individuals and families who were kept in the land of the northern tribes by the Assyrians (maybe to keep the land tilled; maybe as slaves) were as scattered from the majority who were driven out and carried off, as the ones who were carried off were from those who were kept locally by the Assyrians.

ALL were scattered!


29 posted on 07/18/2008 6:19:00 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Wallace T.
I went back and read your post again, and am thinking that you have perhaps taken from my posts that I don't believe in the restoration of Israel (which Chafer did and Ruckman does; I don't know about Harvard[!]). I am in agreement with the general theological positions of Louis Chafer, including that on the future restoration of Israel, and firmly believe that Israel will be the head and not the tail among the nations. I am not a purveyor of British-Israelism, neither were the editors of THINGS TO COME (London, 1894-1915).
30 posted on 07/18/2008 6:25:56 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789
You have assumed too much regarding my post. I was merely stating that on this particular point, Dr. Ruckman concurs with people who hold to others views with which he otherwise disagrees. He may have a general agreement with the dispensationalism taught by DTS, but would disagree with their positions on issues like secondary separation, modern Bible translations (DTS professors and graduates tend to prefer the NASB), and their moderate, or “four point”, Calvinism, among others. Dr. Ruckman agrees with the Catholic Church on abortion, but that does not make him a “one-point Catholic”! My point was merely that despite his being very much outside the evangelical or secular mainstream, he realizes that British Israelism is both un-Scriptural and unhistorical, and his reasoning and facts are sound.
31 posted on 07/18/2008 7:34:46 AM PDT by Wallace T.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: ladyL
The prophets tell that the lost tribes aka the House of Israel will be united with the House of Judah (Jews) to restore the Kingdom of Israel. That is in our future. Hmm...I wonder who the House of Israel is?

Hard to say....really, but according to [Amos 9:9] you might have some living next door to you.....and they ain't Jewish! [For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.]

32 posted on 07/18/2008 8:27:44 AM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Christopher Lincoln

and, many of the exiles would have stayed on in Iraq and become part of the population — just like how you had significant Jewish tribes in Mecca and Medina, so many present day Iraqis and Najaf Saudis would have partial descent from Judeans


33 posted on 07/18/2008 9:16:36 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: MeanWestTexan
Irish (Celts, in particular)

Not really -- all the genetic studies indicate that Celts are part of the Indo-European/Aryan stock, not Semitic.
34 posted on 07/18/2008 9:18:59 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618
Judah consisted of Benjamin and Levi as well

before the Assyrian conquest, the Judeans would also include the tribe of Simeon which was absorbed by then and possibly part of Reuben (or Reuben was absorbed by Moab/Edom)
35 posted on 07/18/2008 9:22:12 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: ladyL; Diego1618
Hmm...I wonder who the House of Israel is?

Most likely they would be peoples of the Middle East -- part of the Assyrian Empire. So, the House of Israel would be across Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Armenia, Eastern Turkey, Azerbaijan and fringes of western Iran and northern SAudi Arabia -- all people who after enforced arabization but who earlier were Assyrians, ARameans, Hattians, etc.
36 posted on 07/18/2008 9:26:32 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789; Diego1618

Quite right — the other tribes were absorbed into Judea, creating ONE tribe


37 posted on 07/18/2008 9:30:43 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

You are probably very right but only partially correct. You see as was stated in another post Amos said that Israel would be sifted into ALL the nations. Now in Jer 31:31, I encourage you to look up it says:

(Jer 31:31 KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Now this New Covenant is made with only TWO groups of people, the house of Israel and the house of Judah. We know that Judah is the Jews so who else today are NEW COVENANT BELIEVERS IN THE GOD OF ISRAEL? and when the New Jerusalem comes down with 12 gates and over each gate is the name of a Tribe, which gate are you going to enter through? don’t see no church gate :0 Come let us reason together :)


38 posted on 07/18/2008 10:58:40 AM PDT by ladyL (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: ladyL

If you are going to be pedantic, then the house of Judah also probably includes you and me (and I don’t have any known Jewish blood) — why? Because in the 3 millenia since there were Jews, they have migrated to Europe, to India, to Ethiopia, to the US, even to Central Asia, Arabia and China. The Israelites probably spread their blood even further. So, technically speaking, nearly all of us, except those from remote tribes in the Amazon, the ANdaman islands, Papua New Guinea etc. probably have some trace of Jewish and non-Judean Israelite blood. I would guess that Everyone — including Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists etc. due to inter-breeding is, to some extent Jewish


39 posted on 07/18/2008 2:55:24 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789

Yes, this is correct. They were still there a century ago, and are Christian, almost all.


40 posted on 07/18/2008 2:58:09 PM PDT by RightWhale (I will veto each and every beer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; ladyL; John Leland 1789; Quix
Most likely they would be peoples of the Middle East -- part of the Assyrian Empire. So, the House of Israel would be across Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Armenia, Eastern Turkey, Azerbaijan and fringes of western Iran and northern SAudi Arabia -- all people who after enforced arabization but who earlier were Assyrians, Arameans, Hattians, etc.

So.....when Amos makes his prophecy regarding the eventual location of the chosen folks of Israel.....you consider this so much balderdash?

[Amos 9:9] For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the House of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Not really -- all the genetic studies indicate that Celts are part of the Indo-European/Aryan stock, not Semitic.

It is your considered opinion that Indo-Europeans are not Semitic? Would they then be Hamitic.....or Japhetic?

before the Assyrian conquest, the Judeans would also include the tribe of Simeon which was absorbed by then.

Chapter and Verse....please?

And possibly part of Reuben (or Reuben was absorbed by Moab/Edom).

Rueben was not absorbed by Moab/Edom. Rueben, Gad and Manasseh were given the land east of the Jordan by Moses because it was good for raising and grazing cattle.....in which they were proficient. [Joshua 1:12-15][Joshua 13:8-13]

[Numbers 32:1-5] Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; The children of Gad and the children of Reuben came and spake unto Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and unto the princes of the congregation, saying, Ataroth, and Dibon, and Jazer, and Nimrah, and Heshbon, and Elealeh, and Shebam, and Nebo, and Beon, Even the country which the LORD smote before the congregation of Israel, is a land for cattle, and thy servants have cattle: Wherefore, said they, if we have found grace in thy sight, let this land be given unto thy servants for a possession, and bring us not over Jordan.

Sihon was the King of the Amorites who had taken this land from the King of the Moabites [Numbers 21:26]. The Israelites had camped in this land on their way to the promised land after this part of the land of Moab had transferred to the Amorites [Numbers 21:10-14]. Israel took this land from the Amorites because Sihon, King of the Amorites, would not agree to the Israelites passing through his land (Northern part of Moab) [Numbers 21:23-26].

Thus.....the land of Moab (Northern part) was settled by Rueben, Gad and the half tribe of Mannaseh [Numbers 21:29-31][Deuteronomy 2:32-37] Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took. From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us: Only unto the land of the children of Ammon thou camest not, nor unto any place of the river Jabbok, nor unto the cities in the mountains, nor unto whatsoever the LORD our God forbade us.

So.....when you read of Israel living in Moab it's like people living in California (now part of the U.S.A.) even though it's been called California for 400 years while under Spanish and Mexican rule also. The Israelites never lived in the Country of Moab.....they lived in the land of Moab.... their's by conquest from the Amorites who had previously taken it from the Moabites.

41 posted on 07/18/2008 3:45:30 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618
Not really balderdash -- logical. Fact -- the northern tribes (at least some of their people, as per the Assyrians own testimony only a few thousand), were take to Assyria, viz. Iraq. These people if they did not go back to Israel would remain in Iraq -- why? Because the Israelies spoke Hebrew, a Semitic language and they would have understood the Aramaic and Akkadian languages -- both related to Hebrew and they would have been culturally very similar to these other Semitic people. ergo, present-day Iraqis would have Israeli blood. Ditto for the other nations I spoke about

Indo-Europeans/Aryans are not Semitic people. Semites are a separate sub-"race" of the Caucasian "race" -- related to the Aryans and Dravidians, but not the same people. In the Noahic line, you could say they are Japhetic.

Semites are purely those from what in 700 BC was Israel, Moab, Ammon, Edom, Midian, Arabia, Sheba, Aram, Phoenicia, Assyria and Babylonia with some relationship with the Ethiopians through what is now modern-day Yemen.


re: the absorption of Simeon by Judah -- look into the Biblical description of the layout of the tribes (below). It would be inevitable that a larger, more powerful tribe would absorb a smaller one. That is why after the first few kings, you hear no more of Benjamin or Simeon or Reuben. All of these woudl have been absorved by more powerful neighbors -- whether those neighbors be Israeli tribes or other related Semitic peoples

you say Rueben was not absorbed by Moab/Edom. Rueben, Gad and Manasseh were given the land east of the Jordan by Moses because it was good for raising and grazing cattle.....in which they were proficient. [Joshua 1:12-15][Joshua 13:8-13] but you quote from the time WHEN THESE TRIBES WERE GIVEN THE LAND and not centuries after, when I refer. Reuben is barely mentioned during the time of the Judges and disappears during the Kings time. All of the other quotes you give talk about the original time when the Reubenites took the land. The tribe of Reuben would have been like the Manchus of more modern times, completely subsumed into a neighboring group.


42 posted on 07/18/2008 4:01:17 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: ladyL

Your posts are very good on this thread.

It’s my belief that the Phoenicians taught members of the tribe of Dan to sail the open seas and that Dan then colonized the British isles and the other Northern lands in the vicinity with members of the other tribes at around 1000BC to mine for tin and whatnot. It’s interesting looking at the old names: Danemark (Dan), Juteland (Judah), etc. Of course when the promised land upheavals took place at around 700BC and 600BC these people that migrated out to these isles hundreds of years earlier would have avoided those troubles with the Assyrians and Babylonians...and later the Romans in 70AD. They would have been intact until the Anglo Saxon invasions hundreds of years later...and even then the Anglo Saxons were probably their long lost brothers...when one reads the Assyrian cylinders and puts two and two together.


43 posted on 07/18/2008 4:30:53 PM PDT by Partisan Gunslinger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; ladyL; John Leland 1789; William Terrell; Quix
The northern tribes (at least some of their people, as per the Assyrians own testimony only a few thousand), were take to Assyria, viz. Iraq.

It is the testimony of Holy Scripture that "All of Israel" was taken [II Kings 17:18]. I'll go with scripture.

These people if they did not go back to Israel would remain in Iraq.

The Assyrian Empire imploded about 600 B.C. and the Israelites who had been living there in exile for 125 years were not being kept there....although some indeed did remain in the vicinity. Many migrated and this is why you find Peter evangelizing some on the southern shores of the Black Sea during the first century [1 Peter 1:1-2]. This is also why you read Josephus telling the first century world that there are an uncountable number of Israelites living beyond the Euphrates (Iraq and Iran) [Antiquities XI, Chapter 5, Paragraph 2]. The two tribes yet subject to the Romans (according to Josephus) would be Benjamin and Judah.....Levi not being counted as they were priests, and as such were counted among the other tribes.

The mere fact that scripture tells us that Israel will be an uncountable people....not knowing who they really are would lead me to believe they have long since left the Middle East in great numbers. [Hosea 1:10] Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Indo-Europeans/Aryans are not Semitic people. Semites are a separate sub-"race" of the Caucasian "race" -- related to the Aryans and Dravidians, but not the same people. In the Noahic line, you could say they are Japhetic.

I would say Europeans and Hebrews were somewhat similar. According to your statement you think that descendants of both Japhet and Shem are Caucasians?

re: the absorption of Simeon by Judah -- look into the Biblical description of the layout of the tribes (below). It would be inevitable that a larger, more powerful tribe would absorb a smaller one. That is why after the first few kings, you hear no more of Benjamin or Simeon or Reuben. All of these would have been absorbed by more powerful neighbors -- whether those neighbors be Israeli tribes or other related Semitic peoples.

The reason Benjamin became part of Judah was the result of Solomon's sins. The Lord had told Solomon: [I Kings 6:11-13] And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. But......this was not to be: [I Kings 11:1-2] But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites: Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. So.....The Lord did this: [I Kings 11:11-13] Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant. Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son. Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe (in addition to Judah) to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen. That tribe was: [I Kings 12:21-24] And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon. But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying, Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from me. They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD.

That is why after the first few kings, you hear no more of Benjamin or Simeon or Reuben. All of these would have been absorbed by more powerful neighbors -- whether those neighbors be Israeli tribes or other related Semitic peoples You quote from the time WHEN THESE TRIBES WERE GIVEN THE LAND and not centuries after, when I refer. Reuben is barely mentioned during the time of the Judges and disappears during the Kings time. All of the other quotes you give talk about the original time when the Reubenites took the land. The tribe of Reuben would have been like the Manchus of more modern times, completely subsumed into a neighboring group.

You might want to reconsider your position about Reuben. [I Chronicles 5:25-26] And they transgressed against the God of their fathers, and went a whoring after the gods of the people of the land, whom God destroyed before them. And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.

The Books of the Kings and the Chronicles were written after the return of the Jews from Babylon (525 B.C.) and the King of Assyria had taken Reuben.....and the other nine tribes of the north captive 200 years earlier. This would indicate to me that these folks had not been absorbed by Moab and Edom as you had stated and were indeed still around (live and Kicking) during the time of the Judges and the Kings.

44 posted on 07/18/2008 6:01:14 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618

I wonder what some of the authors do with the 144,000 Israelite evangelists in the end times . . . 12,000 from each tribe?

God was quite clear and specific about that.

He will fulfill it quite clearly, specifically and literally just as He said He would.

HE has NO trouble knowing where each individual is.


45 posted on 07/18/2008 7:53:39 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618

I personally believe that the

ULTIMATE

fulfillment of

“as the sands of the seashore

will occur in the 1,000 year Millenium reign of Christ and possibly after . . .

and out across the galaxies. This would would not contain well that many Chiefs . . . nor all their Indians.

IIRC, God intends for Blood Israel to be part of those ruling and reigning with Christ. That’s a lot of Chiefs.


46 posted on 07/18/2008 7:59:08 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
Yes!!! You are starting to get the picture which is a large jump for most people :) If you purpose to go into this study of our faith from the Hebrew perspective you will discover that Yahweh has only one chosen people and that's the Israelites. There are only two kinds of people in the world, Gentiles (heathen and pagans) and Israelites. “If you are in Jesus Christ you are Abraham's seed” Gal.3:29. The scriptures are all over the place, 100’s of them that show that the covenant people are the Jews and Christians today. These Christians do not know they are the lost Israelite that Yahshua came to redeem. More and more of us are finding our identity both by scripture and by the Spirit. Anyone who has a love for Israel and can't explain that love, I guarantee that person is an Israelite. Others are being drawn back to their Hebrew roots and don't understand why.

Well if you go to Ezk 4:4 you will see that Yah told Ezekiel to lay on his left side 390 days, a day for a year for each year Yah was going to punish the House of Israel. Then he told Ezkiel to lay 40 days on his right side as the years He would punish the House of Judah. See, 2 different nations, 2 different peoples, 2 different judgements. Jacob was told his decendents would become a nation and a company of nations. NOT JUST ONE JEWISH NATION !!!

Anyhow the 390 years of punishment (dispersion) were multiplied by 7 according to Lev. 28 that if punishment is applied but there is no repentance then the punishment would be multiplied seven times. 390 years X 7 = 2730 years. The House of Israel's punishment began in 721 BC when they were carried off by the Assyrians. Do the math.
The punishment is up THIS YEAR. That's why so many of us are finding out our true identity. We are Abraham's seed. We are Israelites. In Hosea Yahweh said at the end of our punishment he would give us back our identity, he would have mercy and compassion on us and He would bring us back to our land. These are exciting times and Yah is calling us all back to the Scriptures where He will meet us and help us shed man's traditions and doctrines and come back to His truths. I pray you continue in these studies.

47 posted on 07/18/2008 8:19:20 PM PDT by ladyL (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Partisan Gunslinger
That's pretty funny on so many levels. The Phoenicians were already trading with Briton for tin before 1000 BC. Jumping to assumptions based on names is rather unscientific -- Danemark to Dan; what about the fact that the GReeks were called Danoi during Mycenean times and that the tribe of Dan was originally next to Philistia, would you then guess that the tribe of Dan was not of Hebrew origin but of Danoi/Greek/Sea Peoples origin?

Secondly, the Phoenicians would not want to help them. And why would the phoenicians not want to help the Israelites? Well, if you start calling the phoenicians by the name they call themselves, not the name the GReeks/Roman gave them (Punic). The Phoenicians called themselve CANAANITES. How could they forget the genocide of their relatives that had occured barely a couple of centuries earlier?

Thirdly, there is no proof for Israelite settlements by sea, on the other hand there is so much proof for Canaanite settlements like Sicily (Syracuse), southern Italy, CArthage, Cadiz (Spain) and for Greek settlements around the Black sea and into Sicily. Both the histories for this date back to the second millenium BC -- why is there no evidence for Israelites?

The earliest evidence starts from the Judean era when the Jews use the great Persian Empire as a roadway for them to travel

The Anglo-Saxons (Saxon from the Germanic word saxe for curved knife) are Aryans, just like the Celts, just like the Romans, Greeks, Indians, Persians, Armenians, Slavs -- and there were documented Aryans dating from the 2nd millenium BC (Hittites in Anatolia, Tocharians in Central Asia and Xinjiang, Indo-Iranis in Iran, northern India, the southern Russia steppes etc.
48 posted on 07/18/2008 8:54:52 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: ladyL; Cronos
Anyhow the 390 years of punishment (dispersion) were multiplied by 7 according to Lev. 28 that if punishment is applied but there is no repentance then the punishment would be multiplied seven times. 390 years X 7 = 2730 years.

[Leviticus 26:18-28] And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate. And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied. And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

49 posted on 07/18/2008 8:57:13 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Diego1618
The scriptures only mention a number in thousands leaving Israel. do you think it would be so easy for bronze age peoples to forcibly migrate all people from a hilly, mountainous land like Israel?

The Assyrian Empire didn't "implode" - it was tken over by another, related Semitic people: the Babylonians.

The Israelites were related to both Assyrians and Babylonians; they spoke mutually intelligeble languages and their cultures were similar. They would have been assimilated. The reason the later Judeans did not assimilate into the Persian empire is because the PErsians are aryans like the Celts, Germanics, Indians, Slavs, etc.with quite a different language and culture compared to the Semitics

Peter went evangelizing to later Jewish communities who travelled via the Persian, Alexandrian and Roman Empires (Empires that emphasised trade rather than tribute as the Assyrians did). There were Jewish (as opposed to earlier Israelite) communities.

I would say Europeans and Hebrews were somewhat similar.

Arabs are more closely related to Hebrews than Hebrews are related to any Indo-Europeans.

The mere fact that scripture tells us that Israel will be an uncountable people....not knowing who they really are would lead me to believe they have long since left the Middle East in great numbers.
Any northern tribes would have been majorly retained in the blood-lines of Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, etc and through inter-marriage to the Iranis, Armenians, Turks, Greeks etc. The "purest" lines would remain in the Middle East.

Benjamin, Simeon were assimilated into Judah due to natural pressures for smaller similar groups to merge into larger, more powerful relatives. Ditto for Reuben merging into the similar culture of the Moabites
50 posted on 07/18/2008 9:14:10 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-118 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson