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[OPEN] The Holy Spirit, Soul of the Church
Catholic Culture ^ | 7/2008 | Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap.

Posted on 07/21/2008 5:53:25 PM PDT by markomalley

"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; and we were all given to drink of one Spirit" (I Cor 12:13)

How many of you have heard people from your own generation or older say something like this: "I believe in Jesus, but I don't need the Church." Or: "I'm a spiritual person, but I'm not religious."

Here's the problem with those statements: Without Jesus, there's no Church. It's that simple. And it's also true the other way around: Without the Church, there's no way we can have a lasting, personal relationship with the true Jesus Christ. The original Greek word for the Church is ekklesia, which means a gathering of those who are "called out" — called out of the darkness of the world by God for a new life in Jesus Christ. The whole reason for Jesus' incarnation was to bring salvation to all humanity, not just his contemporaries. So He had to form a community of believers that would preserve his mission and continue it for all the generations to come. This is why He founded the family of faith we call the Church. He then made sure that his Church would become God's people forever, by sending the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

No matter how flawed or sinful individual Catholics may be, the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church and guarantees that she will always remain the sacrament of Salvation. In other words, the Church is the only certain way by which all men and women can find the gift of salvation brought by Jesus.

Today, many people try to discredit the historical fact of Jesus in sensational ways. You know some of these efforts: the Da Vinci Code, the phony "gospel" of Judas, the bogus discovery of the "tomb" of Jesus. This has been going on for a long time. Years ago, when I was a seminarian, a book about the "lost years of Jesus" was popular. It claimed that Jesus was actually a guru who spent most of his youth in Tibet, learning from other spiritual masters. Like all the other theories, the book came, sparked some controversy, made some money for its author and then disappeared. And during your own lives as Christians, you'll encounter theories of the same kind, with the same purpose: to disconnect Jesus Christ from his Church; to make us believe that Jesus was a very "wise man," or an "important teacher," or someone with a "great message," but not the Son of God, not our Savior, and certainly not the founder of a Church — especially not our Catholic Church.

This is nonsense, and not because "the Church says so," but because it's historical fact. Jesus repeatedly claimed that He was the only way to salvation, that He was the Son of God, that we had to eat his flesh and drink his blood to be saved, and that we had to follow Him and make disciples of all nations.

So it's false to say that Jesus was simply a "great master," or "a very wise man," or a "good leader." You can't be a "good man" or a "great master" and a liar at the same time, and Jesus quite openly claimed that He was the Son of God who came to save the world. He was either a complete fraud or He was the Son of God. Anything in between is just muddled thinking, inconsistent with Christ's message. In fact, as a believer, I have more respect for someone who rejects Jesus as an impostor or lunatic, than for someone who conveniently rearranges the Christian faith to say that Christ was a "great ethical teacher."

Of course, Catholics believe Jesus was neither crazy nor an impostor, but truly the Son of God who came to save us and to be with us always. But how is that possible? How does Jesus Christ remain in our midst?

Can any one of you see Jesus physically, with your own eyes, right here and now? No. But when Christ promised to be with us always, He specifically referred to the Church. The Church is the way Jesus fulfills his promise to remain among us until the end of time. And because we belong to the family of believers that we call the Church, we claim the presence of Jesus among us right here, right now. Why? Because Jesus said that whenever two or more would be gathered in his name, He would be present among them. And in a while, also thanks to the mystery of the Church, we will ask the Holy Spirit to come to us at Mass and transform the bread and wine into the real body and blood of Christ.

Pope Benedict XVI has talked about the relationship between Jesus and the Church in many of his weekly talks in Rome. He's been focusing on the disciples who first surrounded Jesus, He spoke about the Apostles, and then about the different persons mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. After this he talked about first followers of the Apostles, like Bishop Polycarp, a direct disciple of St John the Evangelist; then on the "disciples of the disciples," like St. Irenaeus, a follower of St. Polycarp. In this way, he's been offering, over the last two years, the great history of the Church based on all the great personalities of our tradition, from St. Augustine to St Gregory the Great, from St. Ignatius of Antioch to St. John Chrysostom.

Why is Pope Benedict doing this? What's the core message of the Holy Father's teachings in these weekly talks? Besides giving us an extraordinary summary of the history of the Church that no serious Catholic should miss, he's delivering a very clear message. The message is this: We Catholic believers today are part of the same, living, community of faith founded by Jesus Christ Himself. There's an unbroken continuity that starts with Jesus, flows down through the Apostles and arrives to us through the discipleship of previous generations and the authority of Scripture itself. In a humble, systematic way, Pope Benedict is responding with hard historical evidence to all those who argue that the Church was somehow "invented" by an emperor or some very clever human beings later in history, but has no connection with Jesus Christ.

Let's remember that we're celebrating this World Youth Day in the context of the Year of St. Paul, the Jubilee convoked by Pope Benedict to celebrate the 2,000 years since St. Paul's birth. Pope Benedict explained that, when Jesus spoke to Paul at the moment of his conversion, He told Paul that Paul's brutal persecution of Christians was a persecution of Jesus Himself. In the words of Pope Benedict, "Jesus identifies Himself with the Church as one single object. It is this revelation of the Risen Christ that transformed Paul's life, and in which is contained all of the teachings about the Church as the body of Christ . . . The Church is not an organization that wants to promote a certain cause. [The Church] is not about a cause. It is about the person of Jesus Christ, who, even though He is risen, has remained 'flesh'."

Who keeps the Church alive, and who guarantees her mission? The Holy Spirit. No one else. Heinrich Himmler, the chief of Adolph Hitler's security services during the Nazi era in Germany, once threatened the Archbishop of Berlin, Cardinal Konrad Graf, with plans to crush the Catholic Church. Cardinal Graf listened politely and then responded: "Well, good luck. We've been trying to do that for 2,000 years, and [the Church is] still here." Of course, the Cardinal was being ironic, but he was also quite accurate: Even the failures and sins of her own leaders have not destroyed the Church. And the reason is simple. The holiness of the Church ultimately depends on the Holy Spirit, not on us.

The same is true today. Obviously, you and I are called to be holy. That's a call we received at our Baptism, when we received the Holy Spirit. God renewed our vocation to holiness in our Confirmation. But the Church's holiness is a reality that does not depend on us. As a bishop, I'm familiar with many of the problems in the Church because they usually end up on my desk. But precisely because I see the flaws of people in the Church everyday, I see more clearly that we're guided by the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus dwells in his own true Church — the Catholic Church. I also see that the Holy Spirit raises up many, many holy people, parishes, movements and new spiritual families that are bringing new hope and fresh energy to the Church.

So make no mistake: If you want a full, meaningful life in Jesus Christ, you will only find it in the Catholic Church. Remember that the Holy Spirit is the "Lord and giver of life": Take those words to heart. There is no real life without the Holy Spirit or without the Church that Jesus Christ founded.

To love Jesus Christ is to love the Church. This is also true the other way around: To love the Church is to love Jesus Christ. We need to have a true passion for the Church, a love that moves us to a deeper zeal for her mission, a love that makes us eager to explain and defend her. We need to rediscover the kind of unabashed love for the Church we find in the early Fathers of the Church and the great Catholic saints. Their fidelity to the Church was not abstract. Many gave their lives to prove their love.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St. John the Apostle, on his way to being thrown to the beasts in the Roman Coliseum during one of the great persecutions against Christians, wrote a letter with these words: "I am the wheat of God, and let me be ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ."

Is our love for the Church this deep; so true and so pure that we're ready to be "ground down" to become the wheat of God?

As a bishop, I have the privilege of receiving back into the Church many fallen away Catholics every year. The reasons these people abandoned their Church are varied. Many of them had a normal Catholic childhood; they were happy kids in a Catholic family that would say family prayers, go to Mass on Sundays, and practice Catholic traditions and devotions.

What led them away from their faith? In many cases, it was simply encountering the world, usually at college age, without a well-rooted understanding of their faith or the tools to defend it. Many had personal devotion to God, sympathy for the Church, and respect for priests and nuns; but they had no mature intellectual and spiritual formation in their faith. They were intellectually unarmed. They met the usual "false prophets" — about which Jesus Himself warned us — who filled them with doubt, peer pressure and academic cynicism, and these experiences completely undermined their Catholic soul. They became not only embarrassed about their faith but hostile to it.

Some of the most ferocious and bigoted critics of the Church I've met over the years have been formerly serious Catholics. And of course that makes them more effective in their ability to hurt the Church. It's a lot like breaking up with members of your family. Because you know your spouse, or your parents, or your siblings so well, you also know better than anyone else how to hurt them.

How can we prevent joyful members of the Church from sliding into indifference or even hostility to their Catholic faith?

A strong Catholic sacramental and prayer life is indispensable. But it's not good enough. We also need on-going Catholic formation — intellectual, spiritual and human formation. This kind of formation is almost impossible to find outside the context of a living Catholic community, be it a parish, a renewal movement or some other type of Catholic association to which we deeply commit ourselves.

Our connection to the Church is never an abstraction. It always comes alive through our engagement with a community of believers. That's why, from the beginning, the Church was organized into territories, what today we know as parishes or dioceses. That's also why the Church has always encouraged many different forms of Catholic spirituality and community life.

Remember that each one of you is precious to Jesus Christ as an individual, as a son or daughter of the Church. No one is a minor player in the history of salvation, and none of you is just a number in the Church. You have a purpose that only you — in all of human history — can fulfill. You are loved by God and needed in God's plan in a unique and irreplaceable way.

St. Ignatius of Antioch once wrote:

"Christ is our leader, and we His soldiers. Let us then, brothers and sisters, with all energy, act the part of soldiers, in accordance with His holy commandments. Let us consider those who serve under generals, with what order and obedience they perform the things that are commanded them. All are not generals, nor commanders of a thousand, or a hundred . . . but each one in his own rank performs [what must be accomplished]. The great cannot subsist without the small, nor the small without the great."

More than 40 years ago, Pope Paul VI gave his great first encyclical the title Ecclesiam Suam. Those are Latin words that mean "His Church." Pope Paul meant that the Catholic Church does not belong to the bishops, or to the priests or deacons or nuns or laypeople, or even to the Pope himself. The Church belongs to Jesus Christ. Each one of you is needed to live and witness Jesus Christ. Do not evade that responsibility. Do not break faith with the Lord who loves you — Jesus Christ, whose Catholic Church is the path to your own and the world's salvation.

May God bless you.



TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Theology
KEYWORDS: australia; catholic
The second of a series of three catechetical talks delivered by the Archbishop of Denver, Charles J. Chaput, to the pilgrims assembled in Sydney, Australia for World Youth Day 2008. The Archbishop explained the necessity of belonging to the Church rather than simply believing in Jesus: "Without the Church, there's no way we can have a lasting, personal relationship with the true Jesus Christ."
1 posted on 07/21/2008 5:53:25 PM PDT by markomalley
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To: markomalley

Grand post, Markomalley ... from a Presbyterian.

Best Regards,

BR


2 posted on 07/21/2008 6:31:42 PM PDT by Birmingham Rain
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To: markomalley
I don't know how much of this I can stand to read...Just in the first two paragraphs are these statements which are fatally flawed...I'd say they are outright lies but that wouldn't be polite...

Without the Church, there's no way we can have a lasting, personal relationship with the true Jesus Christ.

This statement is ridiculous...Jesus did NOT start your church...

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Moses was in a church...And while Moses' church had a lot of law abiding Jews, his church also housed herds of heathen...Unlawful Jews and Egyptians...There were no saved people in Moses' church...

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Isn't that odd, Jesus disagrees with your church...And since believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, who is a 3rd part of the Trinity, how could one NOT have a personal relationship with Jesus whether in a church or out of one???

He then made sure that his Church would become God's people forever, by sending the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

This is the second ridiculous statement in the first paragraph...

God made sure His people would become His church...NOT that His church would become His people...He didn't even do that for Moses...

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

You can only joins God's church AFTER you have been saved...And the Lord adds you, not a man...

No one can joins Gods by getting wet...You can only join God's church by having a 'right' heart...And that comes from Repentence which is turning to God...

The Body of Christ has NO unsaved people in it...And I'll guarantee you your Catholic church and all other churches have unsaved people in them...It is virtually impossible that your Catholic church is the body of Christ...

No matter how flawed or sinful individual Catholics may be, the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church and guarantees that she will always remain the sacrament of Salvation.

Self delusion...Anti-biblical...The Holy Spirit does NOT dwell in a church...The human body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit...The Holy Spirit resides only in bodies...And since it's possible that every person who is a member of your magisterium COULD be unsaved and without the filling of the Holy Spirit, it is assinine to suggest that the Holy Spirit resides in your 'Church'...

In other words, the Church is the only certain way by which all men and women can find the gift of salvation brought by Jesus.Not according to Jesus...

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, (NOT the Catholic church) all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace,(NOT the throne of the pope) that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The fact is, you CAN NOT get to Jesus at the Catholic church or thru the Catholic church...A person must go DIRECTLY to Jesus for Salvation...

Those two paragraphs alone contradict the Holy Scripture

3 posted on 07/22/2008 7:12:45 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Iscool; NYer
This statement is ridiculous...Jesus did NOT start your church...

Jesus said,

ܐܳܦ݂ ܐܶܢܳܐ ܐܳܡܰܪ ܐ݈ܢܳܐ ܠܳܟ݂ ܕ݁ܰܐܢ݈ܬ݁ ܗ݈ܽܘ ܟ݁ܺܐܦ݂ܳܐ ܘܥܰܠ ܗܳܕ݂ܶܐ ܟ݁ܺܐܦ݂ܳܐ ܐܶܒ݂ܢܶܝܗ ܠܥܺܕ݈݁ܬ݁ܝ ܘܬ݂ܰܪܥܶܐ ܕ݁ܰܫܝܽܘܠ ܠܳܐ ܢܶܚܣܢܽܘܢܳܗ܂

You can argue all you want, but that one verse settles it. Sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable, but it is what it is.

BTW, I pinged NYer only for the purpose of the language issue.

4 posted on 07/22/2008 7:55:23 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Iscool; NYer

I just realized that not everybody may have that font installed on their computers. In order to read it, you may need to have the Estrangelo Edessa truetype font installed (it is a free font...just google it).

Sorry for any inconvenience.


5 posted on 07/22/2008 8:26:49 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley; Iscool
Mark, just letting Iscool know he can find a little help here: LEARN ASSYRIAN ONLINE: THE ARAMAIC ALPHABET, SYRIAC-ARAMAIC VOCABULARY. ;-)

Kidding aside, I'm going to have to learn some myself!

6 posted on 07/22/2008 8:41:15 AM PDT by maryz
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To: markomalley
"I'm a spiritual person, but I'm not religious."

This is the one that always drives me crazy! What do such people think "spiritual" means? Good? High-minded (whatever that means!)? Refined? Better than those vulgar masses? They'd do well to remember that sin is as spiritual as virtue, and Satan as spiritual as any angel!

7 posted on 07/22/2008 8:50:56 AM PDT by maryz
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To: markomalley; Birmingham Rain; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Pope Benedict XVI has talked about the relationship between Jesus and the Church in many of his weekly talks in Rome. He's been focusing on the disciples who first surrounded Jesus, He spoke about the Apostles, and then about the different persons mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles.

And thanks to Ignatius Press, those weekly talks have now been organized into a book.

Book Description
Based on Pope Benedict XVI's weekly teaching on the relationship between Christ and the Church, this book tells the drama of Jesus' first disciples -- his Apostles and their associates -- and how they spread Jesus' message throughout the ancient world. Far from distorting the truth about Jesus of Nazareth, insists Pope Benedict, the early disciples remained faithful to it, even at the cost of their lives.

8 posted on 07/22/2008 9:23:55 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: markomalley

Wow ... where did you find the text written in Aramaic?


9 posted on 07/22/2008 9:26:19 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer
Wow ... where did you find the text written in Aramaic?

at this site

Also of interest is Paul Younan's site.

10 posted on 07/22/2008 10:07:21 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: NYer; Kolokotronis
And thanks to Ignatius Press, those weekly talks have now been organized into a book.

While I was searching for a book on Amazon, I came across this (click on the image to go to Amazon):


It appears that it will be available as of August 30, 2008. It will cover the catecheses from Clement of Rome to St. Augustine.

11 posted on 07/22/2008 10:22:00 AM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS

Oh boy ... just added that one to my growing Christmas list at Amazon.com. It would also be a wonderful gift!


12 posted on 07/22/2008 10:33:05 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: Iscool; NYer; maryz; ELS
I do recognize that Aramaic is tough.

Maybe Greek would be easier:

κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

Same basic thought process, except I find the fact that ܟ݁ܺܐܦ݂ܳܐ is directly repeated in the Aramaic is pretty neat. (Remember, to read the Estrangelo text, you need to download the font)

13 posted on 07/22/2008 10:49:12 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Iscool; NYer; maryz; ELS
And, of course, if neither Estrangelo Aramaic nor Greek work, we could always try Latin ('tho I highly doubt Our Lord directly said it in that language):
Et ego dico tibi, quia tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram ædificabo Ecclesiam meam, et portæ inferi non prævalebunt adversus eam.

Same concept one way or the other.

14 posted on 07/22/2008 10:51:36 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: markomalley
Apparently only fragments survive in Christian Palestinian Aramaic.
15 posted on 07/22/2008 11:22:54 AM PDT by maryz
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To: NYer; markomalley

BTTT

Looking forward to getting a copy of the book.


16 posted on 07/22/2008 11:28:13 AM PDT by Gene Eric
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To: ELS

Thanks for the information about Pope Benedict’s coming book!


17 posted on 07/22/2008 1:47:46 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: markomalley
You can argue all you want, but that one verse settles it. Sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable, but it is what it is.

You post someone's translation of a verse into Aramaic and that's supposed to mean something???

Apparently you couldn't adress any of the issues I brought up...I think they call that cut and run...

18 posted on 07/22/2008 3:50:53 PM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Iscool
The fact is, you CAN NOT get to Jesus at the Catholic Church or thru the Catholic Church...

Not only is that false, it's laughable.

19 posted on 07/22/2008 3:53:42 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool
You post someone's translation of a verse into Aramaic and that's supposed to mean something???

Well, Jesus preached in Palestine to the descendants of Israel. Peter was from that neck of the woods, also. By my reckoning, it's a lot more bloody likely that they spoke Aramaic than Greek, much less in KJV English (LOL).

Apparently you couldn't adress any of the issues I brought up...I think they call that cut and run...

Nope. I was at work...and only had a limited amount of time to post.

Now that I am home, I've not got much better to do, so I'll play along (not that your post has any merit to warrant it...but I always like taking a dare...foolish weakness on my part, I realize).


OK, first thing you asserted was:

This statement is ridiculous...Jesus did NOT start your church...

First thing, that verse I quoted, above, in Aramaic, Greek, and Latin, was Matthew 16:18. That, in of itself, proves your premise to be wrong.

However, you gave me a dare...and I am weak enough to take it.

You cited a verse, Acts 7:38.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

It seems as if you did a little online word study for "Church," as you did not bother to look at the context. The context, in this case, begins at Acts 6:8. He was defending the Christian Church against accusations made against them by the scribes and elders. He was facing a tribunal at the Sanhedrin (Acts 6:12). He gave a history of God's interaction with His people, starting with Abraham (7:2), and proceeding through Isaac, Jacob, and the 12 patriarchs (7:8). He recounts Joseph (7:9), the captivity, and then Moses (7:20). Then he speaks of David (7:45) and Solomon (7:47), concluding with a summary of the prophets (7:52). He was then martyred (7:58).

Now how you could come up with this statement,

Moses was in a church...And while Moses' church had a lot of law abiding Jews, his church also housed herds of heathen...Unlawful Jews and Egyptians...There were no saved people in Moses' church...

is completely beyond me. It does not support your point, at all!

------------

You next cite

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

A perfectly good verse, cited often by the Church, but you make the statement,

Isn't that odd, Jesus disagrees with your church...And since believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, who is a 3rd part of the Trinity, how could one NOT have a personal relationship with Jesus whether in a church or out of one???

How do you get that Jesus disagrees with "my" Church. "My" Church cites that verse frequently. For example,

From the Catechism,
  • 1088 "To accomplish so great a work" - the dispensation or communication of his work of salvation - "Christ is always present in his Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations. He is present in the Sacrifice of the Mass not only in the person of his minister, 'the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross,' but especially in the Eucharistic species. By his power he is present in the sacraments so that when anybody baptizes, it is really Christ himself who baptizes. He is present in his word since it is he himself who speaks when the holy Scriptures are read in the Church. Lastly, he is present when the Church prays and sings, for he has promised 'where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them."'
  • 1373 "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us," is present in many ways to his Church:(195) in his word, in his Church's prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name,"(196) in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,(197) in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But "he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species."(198)

In the documents of the Councils:

  • VCII, UR 8, In certain special circumstances, such as the prescribed prayers "for unity," and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren. Such prayers in common are certainly an effective means of obtaining the grace of unity, and they are a true expression of the ties which still bind Catholics to their separated brethren. "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them".(33)
  • VCII, SC 7 7 To accomplish so great a work, Christ is always present in His Church, especially in her liturgical celebrations. He is present in the sacrifice of the Mass, not only in the person of His minister, "the same now offering, through the ministry of priests, who formerly offered himself on the cross" (20), but especially under the eucharistic species. By His power He is present in the sacraments, so that when a man baptizes it is really Christ Himself who baptizes (21). He is present in His word, since it is He Himself who speaks when the holy scriptures are read in the Church. He is present, lastly, when the Church prays and sings, for He promised: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

And in the Church Fathers:

  • Origin, on Matthew, XIII,15 But next we must seek to understand this: the disciples came to Him, as disciples to a teacher proposing difficult questions, and making inquiry, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Matthew 18:1 And, in this respect, we must imitate the disciples of Jesus; for if, at any time, any subject of investigation among us should not be found out let us go with all unanimity in regard to the question in dispute to Jesus, who is present where two or three are gathered together in His name, Matthew 18:20 and is ready by His presence with power to illumine the hearts of those who truly desire to become His disciples, with a view to their apprehension of the matters under inquiry. And likewise it would be nothing strange for us to go to any of those who have been appointed byGod as teachers in the church, and propose any question of a like order to this, Who, then, is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? What, then, was already known to the disciples of the matters relating to this question? And what was the point under inquiry? That there is not equality in regard to those who are deemed worthy of the kingdom of heaven they had apprehended, and that, as there was not equality, some one was greatest, and so in succession down to the least: but of whatnature was the greatest, and what was the way of life of him who was the least, and who occupied the middle position, they further desired to know; unless, indeed, it is more accurate to say that they knew who was least from the words, Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but who was the greatest of all they did not know, even if they had grasped the meaning of the words, Whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 5:19 for as there were many great, it was not clear to them who was the greatest of the great, to use a human standard. And that many are great, but the great not equally great, will be manifest from the ascription of the epithet great to Isaac, who grew great, and became exceedingly great, Genesis 26:13 and from what is said in the case of Moses, and John the Baptist, and the Saviour. And every one will acknowledge that even though all these were great according to the Scripture, yet the Saviour was greater than they. But whether John also (than whom there was no greater among those born of women), Matthew 11:11 was greater than Isaac and Moses, or whether he was not greater, but equal to both, or to one of them, it would be hazardous to declare. And from the saying, But Isaac, waxing great, became greater, Genesis 26:13 until he became not simply great, but with the twice repeated addition, exceedingly, we may learn that there is a difference among the great, as one is great, and another exceedingly great, and another exceedingly exceedingly great. The disciples, therefore, came to Jesus and sought to learn, who was the greatest in the kingdom of heaven; and perhaps they wished to learn, hearing from Him sometimes like this, A certain one is greatest in the kingdom of heaven; but He gives a universal turn to the discourse, showing what was the quality of him who was greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Let us seek to understand, from what is written, to the best of our ability, who this is. For Jesus called a little child, Matthew 18:2 etc.
  • Origen, on Matthew, XIV,1 Again I say unto you that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them. Matthew 18:19 The word symphony is strictly applied to the harmonies of sounds in music. And there are indeed among musical sounds some accordant and others discordant. But the Evangelic Scripture is familiar with the name as applied to musical matters in the passage, He heard a symphony and dancing. Luke 15:25 For it was fitting that when the son who had been lost and found came by penitence into concord with his father a symphony should be heard on the occasion of the joyous mirth of the house. But the wicked Laban was not acquainted with the word symphony in his saying to Jacob, And if you had told me I would have sent you away with mirth and with music and with drums and a harp. Genesis 31:27 But akin to the symphony of this nature is that which is written in the second Book of Kings when the brethren of Aminadab went before the ark, and David and his son played before the Lord on instruments artistically fitted with might and with songs; 2 Samuel 6:4-5 for the instruments thus fitted with might and with songs, had in themselves the musical symphony which is so powerful that when two only, bring along with the symphony which has relation to the music that is divine and spiritual, a request to the Father in heaven about anything whatsoever, the Father grants the request to those who ask along with the symphony on earth,— which is most miraculous,— those things which those who have made the symphony spoken of may have asked. So also I understand the apostolic saying Defraud ye not one the other except it be by agreement for a season that you may give yourselves unto prayer. 1 Corinthians 7:5 For since the word harmony is applied to those who marry according to God in the passage from Proverbs which is as follows: Fathers will divide their house and substance to their sons, but from God the woman is married to the man, it is a logical consequence of the harmony being from God, that the name and the deed should enjoy the agreement with a view to prayer, as is indicated in the word, unless it be by agreement. 1 Corinthians 7:5 Then the Word repeating that the agreeing of two on the earth is the same thing as the agreeing with Christ, adds, For where two or three are gathered together in My name. Matthew 18:20 Therefore the two or three who are gathered together in the name of Christ are those who are in agreement on earth, not two only but sometimes also three. But he who has the power will consider whether this agreement and a congregation of this sort in the midst of which Christ is, can be found in more, since narrow and straightened is the way that leads unto life, and few be they that find it. Matthew 7:14 But perhaps also not even few but two or three make a symphony as Peter and James and John, to whom as making a symphony the Word of God showed His own glory. But two made a symphony, Paul and Sosthenes, when writing the first Epistle to the Corinthians; 1 Corinthians 1:1 and after this Paul and Timothy when sending the second Epistle to the same. 2 Corinthians 1:1 And even three made a symphony when Paul and Silvanus and Timothy gave instruction by letter to the Thessalonians. 1 Thessalonians 1:1 But if it be necessary also from the ancient Scriptures to bring forward the three who made a symphony on earth, so that the Word was in the midst of them making them one, attend to the superscription of the Psalms, as for example to that of the forty-first, which is as follows: Unto the end, unto understanding, for the sons of Korah. For though there were three sons of Korah whose names we find in the Book of Exodus, Exodus 6:24 Aser, which is, by interpretation, instruction, and the second Elkana, which is translated, possession of God, and the third Abiasaph, which in the Greek tongue might be rendered, congregation of the father, yet the prophecies were not divided but were both spoken and written by one spirit, and one voice, and one soul, which wrought with true harmony, and the three speak as one, As the heart pants after the springs of the water, so pants my soul after you, O God. But also they say in the plural in the forty-fourth Psalm, O God, we have heard with our ears. But if you wish still further to see those who are making symphony on earth look to those who heard the exhortation, that you may be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment, 1 Corinthians 1:10 and who strove after the goal, the soul and the heart of all the believers were one, Acts 4:32 who have become such, if it be possible for such a condition to be found in more than two or three, that there is no discord between them, just as there is no discord between the strings of the ten-stringed psaltery with each other. But they were not in symphony in earth who said, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:12 but there were schisms among them, upon the dissolution of which they were gathered together in company with the spirit in Paul, with the power of the Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 5:4 that they might no longer bite and devour one another so that they were consumed by one another; Galatians 5:15 for discord consumes, as concord brings together, and admits the Son of God who comes in the midst of those who have become at concord. And strictly, indeed, concord takes place in two things generic, through the perfecting together, as theApostle has called it, of the same mind by an intellectual grasp of the same opinions, and through the perfecting together of the same judgment, by a like way of living. But if whenever two of us agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of the Father of Jesus who is in heaven, Matthew 18:19 plainly when this is not done for them of the Father in heaven as touching anything that they shall ask, there the two have not been in agreement on earth; and this is the cause why we are not heard when we pray, that we do not agree with one another on earth, neither in opinions nor in life. But further also if we are the body of Christ and God has set the members each one of them in the body that the members may have the same care one for another, and may agree with one another, and when one member suffers, all the members suffer with it, and if one be glorified, they rejoice with it, we ought to practise the symphony which springs from the divine music, that when we are gathered together in the name of Christ, He may be in the midst of us, the Word of God, and the Wisdom of God, and His Power. 1 Corinthians 1:24

So how in the world could you assert that Jesus disagrees with the Church on this matter? It's just beyond me.

Unfortunately, something has come up so I have to run. But the rest of the post will be more of the same.

But I hope the above helps you out a bit.

20 posted on 07/22/2008 5:40:34 PM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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