First Vision accounts (of Joseph Smith)

Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) ^ | 19 July 2008 | FAIR

[fproy2222]

Critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints often seek to point out differences between the various accounts which Joseph Smith gave of his First Vision. In defense of their position that the Prophet changed his story over a six year period (1832 to 1838) they claim that the earliest followers of Joseph Smith either didn’t know about the First Vision, or seem to have been confused about it.

Comparison to Paul's vision

Paul the apostle gave several accounts of his vision of the resurrected Lord while on the road to Damascus. Like Joseph Smith's account of the First Vision, Paul's accounts differ in some details but agree in the overall message. Richard Lloyd Anderson made the following comparisons.

[fproy2222]

Many Christians who comfortably accept Paul’s vision reject Joseph Smith’s. However, they aren’t consistent in their criticisms, for most arguments against Joseph Smith’s first vision would detract from Paul’s Damascus experience with equal force. For instance, Joseph Smith’s credibility is attacked because the earliest known description of his vision wasn’t given until a dozen years after it happened. But Paul’s earliest known description of the Damascus appearance, found in 1_Cor. 9:1, was recorded about two dozen years after his experience. Critics love to dwell on supposed inconsistencies in Joseph Smith’s spontaneous accounts of his first vision. But people normally give shorter and longer accounts of their own vivid experiences when retelling them more than once. Joseph Smith was cautious about public explanations of his sacred experiences until the Church grew strong and could properly publicize what God had given him. Thus, his most detailed first vision account came after several others—when he began his formal history. This, too, parallels Paul’s experience. His most detailed account of the vision on the road to Damascus is the last of several recorded. (See Acts 26:9–20.) And this is the only known instance in which he related the detail about the glorified Savior prophesying Paul’s work among the Gentiles. (See Acts 26:16–18.) Why would Paul include this previously unmentioned detail only on that occasion? Probably because he was speaking to a Gentile audience, rather than to a group of Jewish Christians. Both Paul and Joseph Smith had reasons for delaying full details of their visions until the proper time and place.[1] The linked articles below are designed to help readers to see some of the weaknesses that are found in arguments that are made against Joseph Smith's First Vision accounts. Some of these arguments are currently being advocated in anti-Mormon literature that is handed out near the Sacred Grove in Palmyra, New York.

[fproy2222]

Given the large number of criticisms that miss-lead others as to what really happened with Joseph Smith's First Vision, I am giving a link to a site that answers many of the questions.

There is a lot of material here, and a lot of links. It can only be hoped that people will question the assumptions made by the anties and be willing to check out what counters their ideas.

[AppyPappy]

So if Smith is wrong, Paul must be a fraud.

[AxelPaulsenJr]

I will take Paul’s word over Smith’s.

[Augustinian monk]

Jospeh Smith preaches a different gospel. No futher examination of his “vision” is necessary.

[Gamecock]

Well let's take a look at the verses cited in the article:

1 Cor. 9:19:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?

And this describes the Damascus road experience how? Other than claiming that he saw Christ I fail to see what the point is. The article claims that there is a problem here because it was recorded about two dozen years after his experience. ? SO? I think I would clearly remember meeting Christ a 50 years after the fact. Do you remember where you were on the morning of September 11th?

Now let's look at the next passages, the ones the are alleged to deleted passages for audiences:

Acts 26:9-20 “In this connection I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

compared to

Acts 26:16–18 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

There is not one inconsistency here. Nada, zero. In the former we see in the expedience in great detail and in the later we see a passing reference as you would expect to read in any book where the reader is assumed to have already read the earlier portion.

Jos. Smith is no Paul

[fproy2222]

There is not one inconsistency here. Nada, zero. In the former we see in the expedience in great detail and in the later we see a passing reference as you would expect to read in any book where the reader is assumed to have already read the earlier portion.

+++++++++++++++

I agree, now use the same standard you used to study Paul's First Vision on Joseph Smith’s First Vision.

Ps, how many of the references listed in the article did you study?

[fproy2222]

And this describes the Damascus road experience how? Other than claiming that he saw Christ I fail to see what the point is. The article claims that there is a problem here because it was recorded about two dozen years after his experience. ? SO? I think I would clearly remember meeting Christ a 50 years after the fact. Do you remember where you were on the morning of September 11th?

++++++++++++++

No problem stated, the article only states that Paul did not give ALL THE INFORMATION in each telling of the event.

This is often stated as a reason why Joseph Smith's accounts are false.

[Gamecock]

how many of the references listed in the article did you study?

None.

If the thesis is true the material would stand on it's own

and

I will not study the writings of a heretic comparing the apostle Paul to another heretic.

[fproy2222]

how many of the references listed in the article did you study?

=+=+=
None
++++++++++++++

Thank you for your honesty.

[Gamecock]

I have an idea.

I posted the Damascus road passages for all to see.

Why don’t you do the same for all of the First Vision Passages?

Go ahead. I’ll wait.

[count-your-change]

Joseph Smith claimed to “translate” The Book of Abraham (so called) from a scrap of an ancient pagan Egyptian funeral text. He was a fraud or deluded or both as this funeral text, despite the theological and interpretive contortions made, had absolutely nothing to do with Abraham.
Yet despite the obvious error/fraud said “translation” is, Smith is defended with pieces like the source cited. Studying counterfeits makes one familiar with counterfeits, it doesn’t enlarge one’s knowledge of the genuine.
“Many Christians who comfortably accept Paul’s vision reject Joseph Smith’s”. Correctly so.

[Enosh]

Mormons grasped at the legitimacy of the Catholic Church for Romney by comparing him to JFK, now they dare compare Smith to St. Paul. Pitiful.

Compare Smith instead to L. Ron Hubbard and you’ll hit closer to the truth.

[fproy2222]

Why don’t you do the same for all of the First Vision Passages?

+++++++++++++++++

For those who care, they are posted in the links you find of no use to study.

Along with Paul's different accounts of his First Vision.

Go there and study it.

[Godzilla]

No problem stated, the article only states that Paul did not give ALL THE INFORMATION in each telling of the event
This is often stated as a reason why Joseph Smith's accounts are false.

No, you are misrepresenting the opposition here F. The reason that they are considered false is based upon the clear contradictions internal to them first of all and secondly, the contradictions to external facts of the time. And yes, I'll put my hip waders on (again) and trudge thru your vaunted site - which doesn't represent the mormon church BTW - and pick it apart as needed.

[fproy2222]

Mormons grasped at the legitimacy of the Catholic Church for Romney by comparing him to JFK, now they dare compare Smith to St. Paul. Pitiful.

Compare Smith instead to L. Ron Hubbard and you’ll hit closer to the truth.

---

Joseph Smith claimed to “translate” The Book of Abraham (so called) from a scrap of an ancient pagan Egyptian funeral text. He was a fraud or deluded or both as this funeral text, despite the theological and interpretive contortions made, had absolutely nothing to do with Abraham.

++++++++++++++++++

I find that a lot of people choose to confuse the issue by changing the subject with non related subjects.

They might be important and need to be studied, in there own thread, but not used in this thread so the main subject becomes clouded.

[fproy2222]

And yes, I'll put my hip waders on (again) and trudge thru your vaunted site - which doesn't represent the mormon church BTW - and pick it apart as needed.

++++++++++++++++++

Thank you, and please report back on your study of the accounts that Joseph Smith gave about his First vision.

[allmendream]

Mark Twain:

All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the “elect” have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so “slow,” so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle—keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.

The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James’s translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel—half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern—which was about every sentence or two—he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as “exceeding sore,” “and it came to pass,” etc., and made things satisfactory again. “And it came to pass” was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

[Gamecock]

OK, here's something else for the reader to study:

Joseph Smith's First Vision: Fact or Fiction?
Hint: it's fiction!

[Enosh]

Looks like Operation Pig Hose isn’t going so well, eh?

[Godzilla]

Thank you, and please report back on your study of the accounts that Joseph Smith gave about his First vision.

Oh, don't worry about that.

[Godzilla]

“And it came to pass” was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

[count-your-change]

The issue is the truthfulness of Joseph Smith. If his veracity is not to be trusted then his “visions” and who reported, repeated, recorded them is irrelevant.
If Smith's “visions” were fraudulent and based upon the example of The Book of Abraham we would be justified in calling them fraudulent, then comparing them to anything else is trying to obtain legitimacy by association, i.e., Paul had a vision, Smith had visions, Paul told others, Smith told others, therefore there is similarity between the two. Sorry that doesn't work.

[Tennessee Nana]

And just what does the false prophet Joseph Smith have to do with Paul and The Bible ????

Paul was an early Christian and preached the Gospel of Jesus...

Act 11:27 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:25, 26

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

Joseph Smith was a mormon who hated Christians...

“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

“for they were all wrong;”

“their creeds “from Jesus) were an abomination in “his” sight; that those professors (like Paul) were all corrupt;”

“we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.”

“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience (regardless that Jesus of the Christians said something different)

“The Christians belong to the church of the devil”

Joseph Smith

[allmendream]

Words of a brilliant humorist.

[Tennessee Nana]

now they dare compare Smith to St. Paul. Pitiful.
_________________________________________

The mormons compare Joseph Smith to Adam, Abraham, David etc...
They also claim Joseph Smith is equal to Jesus ...

And Joseph Smith claimed he was greater than jesus..

[Enosh]

“And Joseph Smith claimed he was greater than jesus..”

That and a quarter can get one a cup of coffee in Hell.

[count-your-change]

In Acts 9:27 Luke records that Paul related to the apostles “in detail” his experience on the road. He had already spent time with the disciples in Damascus. He would hardly not have told of his vision there. So it would seem Paul's experience became well known rather quickly given his former persecution.
“Jos. Smith is no Paul”. Quite so!

[Godzilla]

In Acts 9:27 Luke records that Paul related to the apostles “in detail” his experience on the road. He had already spent time with the disciples in Damascus. He would hardly not have told of his vision there.

When Paul went to Jerusalem after the encounter enroute to Damascus, his credentials to the Apostles there were brought by Barnabas who told - the story of Paul's encounter of Christ.

[count-your-change]

Words of a “brilliant humorist” on the Bible,
“It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies”

[Tennessee Nana]

Where are the documented accounts from people Joseph Smith told his first so called vision to in 1820...

Surely someone wrote such a momentous occaision down...

If Jesus appeared to someone would it not be announced on the CNN of that time ???

Town crier, “Hear Ye, Hear Ye” Ignorant kid sees Heavenly visitors..Claims there is life on the Moon..

Local Newspaper, 1820.. This morning the 14 year old Joseph Smith Jr, ignorant son of Joseph Smith Sr, a local occultist and peep stone money digger, startled the Rev John Brown of the Presbytarian Church by informing him he had been personally visited by God, Jesus, a host of Heavenly angels, Peter, James and John, and many others to numerous to list herein, and would not be attending his church any more.

Rev Brown informs us that these life time church activities included, perfect attendance in Sunday School, the Men’s Choir, the Royal Rangers, the weekly church cleaning ministry, the food and clothing ministry and many other humble and virtuous Christian pursuits.....

Update and retraction..This newspaper has been informed that Joseph Smith Sr was never a local occultist and peep stone money digger, but has been an Elder and bell ringer in the Presbytarian Church all his adult life, as his father and grandfather before him ..Mr Smith has been eking out a living as a hard worker of odd jobs to feed his lovely only wife of 35 years and his five handsome and wonderful and intelligent sons..We apologize if our past words caused any pain or confusion, and we feel that the Smith protege are sure to go far in this life and the next, for time and eternity..We predict that young Joseph Smith is smart enough to one day run for president of the United States..

Penny Post...Dear Emma, You dont know me but I know everything. I prophecy that one day we will meet and get married. Please tell your father, Mr Hale, that I am an honest and hard working young man, and will make you an excellent and faithful husband.

This morning I saw God, Jesus, millions of angels, and all the major and minor prophets of the Bible..Isnt that cool ???

My Dad has a small spectacle company that his Grandpa, Benjamin Franklin left him, and although it is modest, we live comfortably in our own Queen Anne mansion, and I have my own horse which I ride to school each day.

Look for me when I come to you in a few years,

Yours alone in Time and Eternity,

Joseph Smith
Prophet and Future POTUS

[Tennessee Nana]

That and a quarter can get one a cup of coffee in Hell.
__________________________________________

Coffee will be popular in Hell

[MHGinTN]

The mormonism apologist wants to make it a contract, either the world accept that smith is a prophet appointed by god or Paul is not to be believed. The exercise is typical 'spirit of antichrist' in denying the power of God's Grace in Christ sourcing The Holy Spirit to those faithing in Christ as their Savior ... mormonism is claiming to be 'restored Christianity', as if The Holy Spirit failed for nearly two thousand years to do as Christ promised. BTW, the garbage about smith's false vision is easy to refute with smith's own offerings:

AND … the chart of the visions:

 FIRST VISION:VARIOUS VERSIONS OF VISIONS  

Version Number  When  Published  Brief Description	Age  Year	Pillar   of  light	No. of  Person-  ages	Father  Present	Son  Present	Question:  Join What  Sect?	Remarks-References
1. Offical version,  written 1838,  first  Published 1842  (There are minor differences between the various source references, Ensign  Jan 1985, page 14)	14   1820	yes	2	yes  Both spoke	yes	Join none	Lucy, Hyrum, Samuel, Sophronia join the Presbyterian Church - JSH, pages 49-50, 1981 edition; Times & Seasons, March, April 1842; Ensign Jan. 1985, page 14; Joseph Smith's First Vision by Milton V. Backamn, Bookcraft, 1971, 1980, Appendix C, page 160f
2. Dictated by Smith to F.G. Williams, Summer to Nov. 1832	14 or 15	yes	1	no	yes  Saw Lord, He  "spoke"	No question, told "None doeth good", sins forgiven	Joseph Smith's First Vision, Appendix A, page 155f
3. Written by Smith, his 1832 diary, in his own hand	15	yes	1	no	yes  Saw the Lord Jesus  Christ	No question,  told sins forgiven, all do no good	Ensign, Dec. 1984, pages 24-26; ibid, Jan. 1985, page 11
4. Smith's diary of 1835, recorded by Warren Cowdery, Nov. 9, 1835, conversation of Smith with Joshua	About  14	yes	One, then another like unto first	?	?  Second spoke, saw  many angels	No questions, told sins forgiven, Jesus is Son	Joseph Smith's First Vision, Appen. B
5. Letter form Smith to John Wentworth, editor of Chicago Democrat	none	no	2	?  They spoke	?	No Question	Joseph Smith's  First Vision, Appendix D; Ensign, Jan 1985, page 16; Times & Seasons, Vol  3, pages 706-707, March 1, 1842
6. Early church leaders Brigham Young, G.A.Smith, John Taylor	15	no	1  Saw an angel, and asked the angel	no	no	Join none	See Journal of Discourses,   2:17; 18:239; 13:77, 78; 20:167; 12:333, 334.

[count-your-change]

O.K., He had to go through Barnabas at first. Paul doesn’t seem to be shy about speaking elsewhere so I would guess he would tell his story himself too “in detail”.

[MHGinTN]

Thanks again, LC. The links are awesome.

[greyfoxx39]

Ping

[Colofornian]

...“and it came to pass,” etc., and made things satisfactory again. “And it came to pass” was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

It's actually been "scientifically" proven that this one phrase, "it came to pass" - constitutes about 2.5 percent of the entire Book of Mormon!

(And here we were told by one of the "writers" of the Book of Mormon that he had to be brief due to the constraints of only having yay so much etching space on these gold plates...Some of these books could have had 3-5% more space just by hitting the "delete" button...Oh, they didn't have that back then? Then just by shaking the "etch-a-sketch" portion of those phrases, then)

[allmendream]

Difference being I have a sense of humor about it and find Mark Twain funny even when he is being blasphemous.

He is indeed a brilliant humorist, no need for the scare quotes; he was brilliant, and he was a humorist. He was also a great American and a great novelist who used his words to change the world for the better.

[haole]

please show me the “advanced civilization” that was supposed to have existed near ROme , NY. None, nada, zilch, zero. I will show you the comparison of smiths’ supposed “texts” vs a early Congregational writing in New England, and a pagan egyptian burial rite.
but of course, when you ascend to the heavens and become a “god”, you can punish me for my dis-belief.

[Colofornian]

Where are the documented accounts from people Joseph Smith told his first so called vision to in 1820...

Actually, you raise a very good point. These vision accounts were NOT discussed or written down by Smith from 1820 all the way into 1833...a mysterious 13-year gap for somebody who was a journal-keeper and for someone who wasn't shy about tellin' tales. [And Smith's mother is on the record as saying that Joseph Smith, Jr. like to tell lots of stories during his teen years!]

Not only that, but many of his accounts were so kept close to himself that numerous later LDS "prophet"-presidents and general authorities -- from Brigham Young to those who followed him -- when they would discuss the "First Vision" -- they would convey the "angelic" appearances to Smith -- but had no mention of divine "personages." [I'll pull some sample quotes for you in a later post]

When LDS' top leaders couldn't portray the eventual "official" version of what very belatedly was added to the so-called Mormon "revelational" history, that says something as to Smith's primary versions circulated when he was alive...

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

*** I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.****

Here is the key. A mixed company of Jews and Gentile traders on the way to Damascus..

Paul hears it in the Hebrew language. The Jews probably heard it also, but saw no man.

To the Gentiles, it sounded like thunder because they could not understand it.

Vietnamese sounds to me like ducks quacking.

[count-your-change]

Oh I find him funny most of the time but the quote (not a scare quote) was to show his disdain for religious writings in general not just the BOM.
His humor seems more than a little bitter in this last period of life.
I much appreciate his originality and I think that is brilliant.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

**** he had been personally visited by God, Jesus, a host of Heavenly angels, Peter, James and John, ***

Been eating that ergot infested grain again wasn’t he.

[allmendream]

I think Mark Twain's criticisms had some validity, and thus humor. Something isn't funny unless it is (slightly) true. Twain's opinion of the Book of Mormon recalled so well my own memory of attempting to read through it (only half way)that it struck me as immensely funny. Sorry if you took umbrage but compared to the venom of the anti-Mormon contingent you usually encounter I thought a bit of humor (even if it engaged it a bit of nose tweaking) might lighten things up.

[vpintheak]

What’s the last verses of the Bible say? It is an attempt to add to the Bible. That’s why I will never buy it.

[allmendream]

And I stand by my statement that you used scare quotes around ‘brilliant humorist’. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the term......

http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/department/docs/punctuation/node31.html

Scare quotes are quotation marks placed around a word or phrase from which you, the writer, wish to distance yourself because you consider that word or phrase to be odd or inappropriate for some reason. Possibly you regard it as too colloquial for formal writing; possibly you think it’s unfamiliar or mysterious; possibly you consider it to be inaccurate or misleading; possibly you believe it’s just plain wrong. Quite often scare quotes are used to express irony or sarcasm:

[TexasRepublic]

Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Jim Jones and David Koresh. Not a dime’s worth of difference between them. Birds of a feather.

[Godzilla]

O.K., He had to go through Barnabas at first. Paul doesn’t seem to be shy about speaking elsewhere so I would guess he would tell his story himself too “in detail”.

Not the intent of my comment. In Acts 9:26-27 it states
26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
27 But Barnabas took him, and brought [him] to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

So Paul's conversion story had already been out there for Barnabas to know, basically on the streets for a while and not something made up at a later date.

[Colofornian]

...most arguments against Joseph Smith’s first vision...

You know, Fred, there's lots of good "evidential" arguments against Smith's first vision, but that isn't the type of response I tend to focus in re: my convos with Mormons. So when you say "most arguments against Joseph Smith's first vision…," I go back to simply one portion of his so-called first vision. Verses 18-20:

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join...I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)÷and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join NONE of them, for they were ALL wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an ABOMINATION in his sight; that those professors were ALL corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
20 He again forbade me to join with ANY of them...

Please note the sweeping “absolutes” claimed by Smith with the words of “None…All…All…All…Any” (Anybody see any caveats issued there? I don’t)

With just a few paragraphs, Smith tried to:
...reduce EVERY creed of Christendom to ashes...
...slander the character of EVERY professing believer to that of a "corrupt" status;
...place a large "boycott" sign on every non-Mormon church: you "MUST... [NOT] JOIN ANY!

(1)Wanna explain, Fred, how Smith had such broad-sweeping powers of moral judgmentalism that he could label EVERY Christian “professor” – “professor” as in one who professes beliefs not an academic “professor” – as being absolutely “corrupt?”

(2) Wanna explain, Fred, how Smith could openly bash all Christian sects and simultaneously attempt to dig a spiritual graveyard for not only every 19th century Christian church, but the ones that had been around for the previous 15- to perhaps 19 centuries?

(a) Mormon founder: What’s amazing to me, then, is after Smith has taken the initiative to describe the entirety of Christianity for 14 to 15 to 18 centuries in such a manner, who is it in Mormon eyes that is deemed as the villainized “anti?” Supposedly, to hear Smith tell it, this vision occurred in 1820…so it can’t be claimed by Mormons that Smith was simply responding to the so-called 1830s “persecution” of Mormons.
(b) Second-generation Mormons: Since it was an entirely later full generation of Mormons who decided to place this vision as LDS canonized “Scripture,” it can’t be said that this was just Smith’s mere “opinion.”
( c ) Contemporary Mormons: Since contemporary Mormons tithe on this language to be spread world-wide in millions of imprinted messages (in translated Books of Mormon; in LDS curricula; in LDS books & articles, etc.)… and since the supposedly highly "winsome" “U Christians are ALL corrupt apostate" messages are spread world-wide via 60,000+ LDS missionaries door to door, ya wanna tell us again why we are the so-called “antis?” Just because we object to this tremendous daily drum beat of slander upon our reputation and upon divine truth (creeds) we are the ones belittled as “attacking?” [That's like claiming ships that sailed the same ocean lanes for centuries were "antis" because they opposed the pilfering Pirates!]

(3) Since you mention a comparison to the apostle Paul, wanna explain, Fred, how Smith and Paul could both be right? – Smith about his current & rear-view mirror assessment of the Christian church as being universally “apostate” – the apostle Paul with his prophetic foresight that God would receive… glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout ALL generations, for ever and ever! Amen. (Eph. 3:21) ??? [Both cannot be right]

[See also 1 Timothy 4:1 where “apostates” doesn’t translate into a complete & total apostasy any more than Judas translates into an immediate full apostasy of all the disciples of Christ. Paul says that in the “latter days,” (1 Timothy 4:1) “the Spirit clearly says that…SOME will abandon the faith… Why, Fred, then do you & other Mormons call the Holy Ghost a liar – He says “SOME” – You apparently say “ALL”?]

Why should Joseph Smith’s pronouncements trump Paul’s?... which would lead us to label…
…Paul as a liar or a false prophet…
…the Holy Ghost as either mistaken or a false revelator – for Paul says in 1 Tim. 4:1 that the Holy Ghost "expressly" or "clearly" made that pronouncement…
…Jesus Christ as a false prophet - for according to Joseph Smith the gates of hell would have then indeed prevailed against His church for about 1500 years or so (see Matt. 16:18) [Smith later boasted that he was the "only man" who ever knew how to keep a church together...that Jesus didn't do it...Paul didn't do it...]

[count-your-change]

Pay attention here. Under the picture was the words “brilliant humorist”. Quotation marks show I was quoting someone else's words to identify a person not named, nothing more.
I am well aware of the uses of quotation marks, apparently more so than you. When one quotes another's words it is entirely appropriate to use quotation marks.
You can read into it whatever you will if it's such a important point to you.
“Quite often scare quotes are used to express irony or sarcasm:......”
Quite often is not always and since I made clear my views otherwise I was counting upon the intelligence of the reader to be able to distinguish between the two. Good day.